Public Investigation#2: May 29 chat - Science queue

[donsig]

On this issue though, I am afraid I differ. Given the times posted (and correct me there if I am reading it wrong), it would seem that you allowed about two hours for receiving a response from Civinator.

No, it was over six hours.

Civanator last editied the first post in the NSD thread at 1:43 AM (GMT) on May 29.

Four minutes before doing that Civanator posted this in the NSD thread:

i'm sorry i didn't respond for a while i had a memorial day party and was setin up all weekend. Yes we should start pre-building newton's Uni in PDX

He seems to also want to build Newton's University but then queues up the required tech in spot five or six in the science queue.

I laid the ground work for the wonder as domestic leader but needed NSD cooperation to complete the project. I asked for proper authorization and did not receive an answer.

Now that I look at things, isn't Strider the deputy for the NSD? Is Strider the same as BlueStrider in the turn chat?

[20:56] <BlueStrider> Newton's sounds good I

So much for the reasoning behind calling for the vote. I wouldn't even know where to start on whether we should have done a cabinet or citizen vote.
I would still like to address the issue of whether the vote was necessary or not. Stay tuned. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Channel.

 

[Chieftess]

That's the other concern. Timezones. I think everyone's starting to assume that we all sit at our computers reloading the forum every minute or so, just waiting for a message. Someone in Belguim writing at 8:00AM there time, would be 1:00 AM, my time, I believe. If there was to be a debate (i.e., that person wrote it), it would be atleast 8-10 hours before I replied. This doesn't take into account the fact that I might be working all day, and can't post until 6:30 PM (after my dinner) - 30 minutes before chat time. That would give me 30 minutes to find a post that I never knew existed. (out of a good, maybe 50-70 posts). I also only have a 56/7K modem, not an ISDN line, or cable, like some people. So, it takes MUCH longer for me to load the pages and read them.

This is just an example.

 

[donsig]

From the constitution:

Article 6: There will be a separate instruction thread for each chat turn. This thread should be set up as soon as the chat turn is scheduled. All instructions to be played out in that chat turn should be placed in this thread. Any instructions that are not posted to this thread before the start of the chat turn are not considered official. [Added May 17, 2002]

Here is the May 29 turn chat thread.
Constitutionally, there was no science queue. In the absence of turn chat instructions on important issues we have routinely called for spot votes in the past.

In reality there were instructions from the NSD. I pointed them out and then called for the vote to further the aims of the domestic department which in my belief were based on the wishes of our citizens. I did (and still do) believe that the time element is important in getting wonders built right now. There is fierce competition right now for wonders. We lost Copernicus's Observatory and there were cascades to Magellan's Voyage. Researching magnetism first would have taken twelve turns. The science rate was already as high as it could go without causing a deficit and the treasury was about empty. In my opinion not reseaching either theory of gravity or free artistry would have cost us a wonder.
Finally, there is the question raised earlier about whether the NSD science queue is even based upon the wishes of the citizens. If the NSD thread is reviewed for the period of May 25 through May 29 it will be seen that there were citizen calls for either theory of gravity or free artistry.

 

[Shaitan]

Instructions have to be posted in the turn chat instruction thread. - The instructions weren't posted so weren't technically valid. They were known, however. No foul in the turn chat, based on instructions not being where they were supposed to be.

A Cabinet Vote is required to overrule a Leader's instructions. - Citizen Polls handle all of the in game occurences. This was an error in the turn chat but no foul as there was no valid Leader instruction. The poll was properly a Citizen Poll.

The Designated Player is the only one who can call a Cabinet Vote. - The highest COC member called the Vote. No foul. As there were no valid instructions it was proper for Donsig to call a Citizen Poll.

A Cabinet member may be impeached for disobeying the results of polls. - The polls on the forum clearly showed what the citizens wanted. Kudos for steering the game along the lines desired by the citizens.

Verdict - Drop the case due to lack of a crime. No punishment.

 

[Civanator]

i am sorry about what i said cause i messed up. when i posted i had a huge migraine and couldn't think straight. i didn't even remember posting that. Donsig made the right decision. i'm sorry for gettin mad. so no one should get mad any more cause it was mostly my fault for posting 2 different things. and right now my head is hurting too form allergies so i'm probably not thinking straigh either.

 

[donsig]

We're not mad Civ!

I think spot votes are supposed to be investigated no matter what. This is not a 'witch hunt' but an honest effort to ensure that government officials are not mis-using their offices against the wishes of the citizens.

 

[Plexus]

Hope ya feel better civ!

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Given Shaitan's review of the constitutionality, donsig's forthright explainations, and the fact that Civinator no longer objects; I too withdraw my complaints about the spot vote.

As always, as cast no suspicious on those involved, I merely was hoping to learn details sufficient to justify the overriding of a cabinet member.

Bill
...in PDX

 

[chiefpaco]

Another good point was made by Donsig: Between this turn and the last, there were not 1 but 4 pleas made in the science thread for techs of either Theory of Gravity or of Free Artistry to be researched next. No pleas were made for Magnetism. Why these pleas were not at least addressed is perhaps a result of Civanator's recent health. I think there should have ideally been a thread & perhaps a vote on the next science to be researched. In this case, Strider was on hand to provide guidance during the chat.

On these grounds, and with Civanator accepting the vote, I believe the vote is justified.

In order to avoid this in the future, should we state that the science queue must be included in the chat instructions? Or is it enough to assume they are updated in the first NSD post?

Also, I think we should remind our cabinet to try to act on the pleas of the citizenry and for deputies to work as close as possible with their department head to provide help in times of need.

 

[disorganizer]

ok. so i believe there are no negative comments left?
if there are, they should be stated till sunday. otherwise the investigation will be closed and no action will be taken.

 

[Cyc]

Good decision, Dis. I agree. (But if we take out the ". I", it says Disagree...)

 

[disorganizer]

investigation closed due to lack of public interest