Public Investigation #6: Chat Poll Ignored

[disorganizer]

STOP!You are leaving the topic here!

Now back to the point:
The point was not the decisions taken, the stop or anything.
The point is:

Donsig called for a poll. The poll was held, he ignored the result.
And repeated this with another poll. Nothing else.
And this is strictly against the constitution.

We do NOT have to decide wheter it was right to stop or wrong or wether it brought harm or not.
Of course it brought harm. It shows misuse of power. I think donsig would definitely not have stopped the chat if the first poll went against the trade (he even stated this in the log himself).
So it was not for citizen-opinion why he stopped it.

 

[Padma]

WOW!

I have to jump out of the turn chat early, and the next day I see all h*ll has broken loose!

I have to concur from my reading of the chat log that donsig did violate the Constitution, in having a poll, and then disregarding its results. He may have done it in the best interest of the country. I believe that was his intent. I do not fault him for stopping the game when he did. The chat log shows things were getting confused, and rather heated. At that point, yes, better to stop and hash it out here.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I am sorry disorganizer, but I completely disagree with you.

I think it is important to understand the context of the situation when dealing with obscure areas of the constitution.

I give the same benefit to Rain in PI#7, which I would speculate was at least partially raised by Eyrei to highlight the hypocrasy of this investigation.

Bill
....remaining in PDX, but ready for civil war ;-)

 

[disorganizer]

Well, we have 50 posts discussing pro and con of the action. itself. the subject of this is not the action taken.
The subject is that donsig himself called a poll and as it did not come out as he wanted he ignored it. The game was stopped after this, and donsig even stated before he did NOT want the game to stop.
Now you bring as pro for him that he stopped the game to ask citizencry? This is crazy.
If the 1st poll would have come out in his sense, he would have played till turn 10 without any stop.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
5) Frankly none of this would be too big a deal had our Science and Trade departments posted their policies regarding this tech and trading. I fail to see how it is right to grill our President when he inherited the problem from two departments. It is at least a shared blame.

Just to make something clear (I know dis is trying to get the topic back on track), but I did put my turn chat instructions in. At the time (turn 0) it was not known that we could trade medicine. It occured to everyone at turn 5, when the trade renewals started.

 

[eyrei]

Alright, to get back on topic:

Donsig is guilty of violating the constitution, though his intent was only to ensure that the rights of the majority of citizens were not violated. As a punishment, I suggest he be given a final warning not to do it again.

Further, I suggest that a full discussion thread be opened to discuss, once again, the turn chats.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Chieftess


Just to make something clear (I know dis is trying to get the topic back on track), but I did put my turn chat instructions in. At the time (turn 0) it was not known that we could trade medicine. It occured to everyone at turn 5, when the trade renewals started.

Actually my point was not that you and Strider had not posted instructions at all, simply that this discovery of this tech was going to occur during the scheduled turn chat, and no instructions were there, so it was probably best to stop. Trading a tech is a very big deal at this point in the game.

I think all of this discussion is on point, and I am disappointed that some seem to want to ram through a resolution against the president for what is very much a grey area as this was a spot poll of citizens.

Whereas in PI#7, many of the folks here calling for donsig's head feel that Rain's actions are more than justified, when she CLEARLY violated the black letter law of the constitution, and did so in an intentional public way.

I would vote for dismissing both cases as I think if you look at the context of them as a whole, both actions are at least justifiable within the situation they occured.

My understanding of the purpose of these PI's is that we as citizens do try to evaluate and understand the situtation. I don't think we can do that fairly in a vacuum.

Bill
....it's 97F in Portland today...waverunning on the way!

 

[Immortal]

Originally posted by eyrei
We are not debating whether or not the constitution was violated. That should be obvious. What we are debating is whether any harm was done, and if there was, what is an appropriate punishment.

I don't know where you dreamed this up from, but I will ensure you this is not the basis of this arguement. Chieftess said it extremely well:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this quote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am reporting a violation of chat citizens' rights during the June 12 chat turn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



seems to suggest that we are. There are constitutional laws that cover this issue. (spot/citizen votes)

By your own fingers you typed "we are not debating whether the constitution was violated. That should be obvious." Indeed it is obvious Eyrei, obviously a breach on "constituionality" you seem to follow the constituion to a T whenever it serves your purpose. I seem to recall something about the presidental's veto power, yet now you decide its only a crime if anything bad happened. I fail to see your logic...

Once again i will end with this line:

Waves good-bye to democracy as it flies out the window.

BRAVO RAIN FOR FOLLOWING YOUR HEART IN THE CABINET POLL

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Immortal

Waves good-bye to democracy as it flies out the window.

BRAVO RAIN FOR FOLLOWING YOUR HEART IN THE CABINET POLL

So donsig is not allowed to follow his heart?

I'm just looking for some consistency here.

Bill

 

[Strider]

Bill_in_PDX
Actually my point was not that you and Strider had not posted instructions at all, simply that this discovery of this tech was going to occur during the scheduled turn chat, and no instructions were there, so it was probably best to stop. Trading a tech is a very big deal at this point in the game.

I am guilty here. I did not post my turn chat instructions. It could be a mix of computer troubles/real life/ plus the few times I were on I guess I didn't see it. Through I would think that donsig/chieftess would know sense it's been the same thing every time. "Just follow the queue."

 

[Immortal]

Please elaborate Bill

 

[Strider]

Once again i will end with this line:

Waves good-bye to democracy as it flies out the window.

BRAVO RAIN FOR FOLLOWING YOUR HEART IN THE CABINET POLL

 

[Strider]

This one thread already has more views/posts then most of the govermental threads.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Immortal
Please elaborate Bill

Certainly, and I know this will not come across right, but it really is not a personal attack on yourself (who has provided great service to us all) or anyone here.

donsig is being grilled here for taking an action contrary to the constitution.

Rain is being glorified for taking an action contrary to the constitution....and by many of the same folks who are against donsig.

I think in the context of the situation both have their reasons, and my recommendation is outlined in posts above. I think it is hypocracy though to condemn one of them and glorify the other when they both potentially committed the same "crime".

Bill

 

[eyrei]

Immortal,

While I am obviously a little late, I would like to offer my support for the president's action. The constitution should contain general guidelines and a few specifications where needed for clarity. As times change, we may want to slightly alter the turn thread structure, and I, personally, do not want to see a great deal of time spent doing so.

Here is my view on the last presidential veto. I would appreciate it if people would do their research and get their facts straight before they use these "facts" to show that I am doing something wrong.

I do not use the constitution only when it suits me, and if anyone wishes to continue that accusation, I suggest you post some proof.

 

[disorganizer]

@bill:
donsig and rain both directly violated the constitution directly.
donsig:
he has to follow a poll if there is one. he initiated it, he has to eat the result. he did not want to, so stopped.

if you read (did you really read the log?), i think all wanted to stop as discussions started, and donsig said no we can have a vote. then as the vote returned another result, he suddenly changed his mind and ignored the ghosts he called.

this is a major violation. again.
and this time, it was definitely NOT done for the best of phoenatica, as he first did not want to stop the chat and only wanted to stop after the vote did not turn in his direction.

bill: please reply to my post this time. i dont like it to retype the same things over and over with someone.

and something else:
he is not brought here for not making a vote! read the log!
he is brought here for CALLING a vote and then DISREGARDING THE VOTE HE HIMSELF CALLED.

 

[Strider]

donsig is being grilled here for taking an action contrary to the constitution.

Rain is being glorified for taking an action contrary to the constitution....and by many of the same folks who are against donsig.

This is mainly, because they support what rain did. They think he acted correctly through it was against the law. Thus those same they does not support what donsig did.

And just remember:

Life isn't fair.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by disorganizer
@bill:
donsig and rain both directly violated the constitution directly.
donsig:
he has to follow a poll if there is one. he initiated it, he has to eat the result. he did not want to, so stopped.

if you read (did you really read the log?), i think all wanted to stop as discussions started, and donsig said no we can have a vote. then as the vote returned another result, he suddenly changed his mind and ignored the ghosts he called.

this is a major violation. again.
and this time, it was definitely NOT done for the best of phoenatica, as he first did not want to stop the chat and only wanted to stop after the vote did not turn in his direction.

bill: please reply to my post this time. i dont like it to retype the same things over and over with someone.

and something else:
he is not brought here for not making a vote! read the log!
he is brought here for CALLING a vote and then DISREGARDING THE VOTE HE HIMSELF CALLED.

I'm not sure I see the need to yell at me in caps. I did fully read the log, and feel that if you read my posts you would note that I just said the same thing you did in pointing out that they both violated the consistution. Therefore I do fail to understand why my comments have led to your need to restate your opinion, but I do welcome your clarification there.

Therefore it is pretty much hypocracy for anyone to call for one's head and support the other.

I do think the President or DP should be able to stop the game whenever they see fit, and I don't see how that violates the constitution. Therefore I disagree that there was a second violation by donsig.

Bill

 

[Immortal]

rain was not the designated player however, there are specific rules for such an instance, different from those they already have as cabinet members. Carrying with them specific penalties

I do think the President or DP should be able to stop the game whenever they see fit, and I don't see how that violates the constitution.

Ehh, Im on the fence there, I think it should be against the rules, but I can see when it may be required.

 

[Strider]

I think the game should only be stopped by the current department's represented at the turn chat. A vote could decide if or if not they should stop.