PUBLIC INVESTIGATION - Discussion (donsig)

[Bill_in_PDX]

PUBLIC INVESTIGATION
Judge Advocate
Public Investigation Discussion Thread

Investigation of Vice President donsig

Overview

In accordance with the Phoenatican Code of Laws, Section E, Point 5. The Judge Advocate's Office hereby opens investigation into the actions of Vice President donsig related to forum behavior.

The Accusation(s)

Proper request has been filed with this office in a public manner for this investigation.

Among other possible violations, donsig is specifically accused of violating the Code of Laws, Section A, Point 3a:

Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.

The complaintants contend that during a properly posted and noticed Senatorial poll involving a constitutional change, that Vice President donsig did:

1) Post inappropriate comments for that thread on four occassions.

2) That the initial comments were removed by Shaitan acting as a Mod, after questioning from a governor in their thread.

3) That donsig continued to defy warnings and posted on three additional seperate occassions despite escalated warnings and removals, in clear defiance, and with intent to create a public issue.

Further Clarifications

Shaitan brings this action as a citizen, not a Mod. His reasons for doing so are outlined here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=430443#post430443

Previous rulings have confirmed that certain threads can be limited in participation. See the Judiciary Log here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29890

Finally, the poll thread in question is located here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29516

Proceedure

The Code of Standards, Section H, fully details the responsibilities of all involved with this investigation. My job is to prosecute the case and shepard the process through to fair completion.

I remind all citizens that Phoenatican law is clear on the issue of assumed innocence. donsig is not guilty of any violation until (or if) such time occurs that a majority of citizens vote in a trial.

The requirements of investigation are to follow this process as defined in the CoS:

Point 1 - The allegation was by Shaitan, as a citizen, in the Judiciary Thread.

Point 2 - The allegation was posted in proper format.

Point 3 - In addition to this posting, and one in the Judical thread, I have PM'd the Public Defender, and the Accused to notify them of the charges.

Point 4 - This thread itself satisfies point 4. donsig has been submitted for public investigation in the past, most notably during PI#6.

Point 5 - The first two replies to this thread belong to the public defender and the accused DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD UNTIL DONSIG AND THE PUBLIC DEFENDER HAVE POSTED THEIR RESPONSE

Point 6 & 7 - Once responses are posted, then citizen discussion of the charges is allowed and encouraged. This thread will remain open for 48 hrs, or longer at my descretion should effective discussion continue.

At that point a recommendation will be made, and actions taken based upon the results of the discussion, and other laws applicable.

Judge Advocate

EDIT #1 - added correct link to Judicial Log

 

[donsig]

I wish to formally enter the following links into evidence for this proceeding. These are all links to council votes that have discussions in them. They show that discussions have been allowed in council/cabinet votes for a long time in Phoenatica. Since there has been little (if any) complaint about this practice previous to this investigation I contend that it is an accepted and appropriate practice of the free speech guaranteed in article A of the Phoenatican constitution.
Section A, point 3 A of our Code of Laws states: Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.
Therefore I plead not guilty to the charges made in this public investigation.

Section J Council vote

Governorship ratification cabinet vote

Grey Fox resignation cabinet vote

Constitutional changes cabinet vote

New constitution cabinet poll

Change in the constitution cabinet vote

Deputy of exec. dept. cabinet vote

Chat turn rules cabinet vote

New members of the cabinet cabinet vote

Province 10 and 11 appointees council vote

Governor of Ameri council vote

Council confirmation vote

Amendment 1 Council vote

Province 6 & 10 borders council vote

I reserve the right to add to my defense as the invesigation proceeds.

 

[Eklektikos]

Among other possible violations, donsig is specifically accused of violating the Code of Laws, Section A, Point 3a:

Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate

Look through the constitution and you'll find nothing to in any way indicate that it is inappropriate for citizens to post within those threads. If you look at the ruling in the Judicial Log that has been cited as a precedent you will see that the thread that ruling referred to is heavily regulated in the CoS as to what its contents should be. There are no such stipulations where Senate Vote threads are concerned. Indeed, as Donsig has pointed out above, the threads which seem the most reasonable template for a Senate Vote are the Cabinet Vote threads. These have a long history of containing relevant discussion by citizens alongside the individual votes of the cabinet members themselves.

In light of the lack of legislation concerning the format of Senate Votes, and the precedent set by Cabinet Votes, I move to dismiss this investigation due to lack of merit. Failing that I urge the citizenry to acquit Donsig, as he has broken none of the rules of the demogame.

 

[disorganizer]

i also reserve my spot to say until you 2 posted your say

 

[eyrei]

My suggestion is that we drop this PI, as it had little to do with the actual game. No punishment would be appropriate in the confines of the demogame. Further discussion of this matter is simply going to clog the forum with heated posts, and further polarize the positions.

If donsig wishes to disagree with Shaitan and I participating in the game, that is his right. However, the poll on this subject clearly shows his view is that of the minority. While this subject is not technically the foundation for this PI, in reality that is what it is about.

I politely and humbly ask donsig to accept that we are going to be moderators of this forum, and that we will participate in the game. Further, I ask that Shaitan and donsig apologize to each other for whatever wrongs the other claims they committed, in the interest of peace.


Finally, and note the color of the text: If you do not blatantly disregard the rules you will not be moderated. If you are moderated, you should abide by the moderators instructions. If you do not agree with the moderation on this forum, you are free to post your objection in the site feedback forum or send a message to one of the other mods or Thunderfall.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Eyrei, as noted in my other post, I too would ask that your solution be implimented.

However, my suggestion of such was rejected in the thread it was proposed in. Therefore, until (or if) the Mods step in and handle this issue, this PI unfortunately will proceed forward.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Judge Advocate Response to the Defendant

Vice President donsig points to various threads in which debate and/or comments occured during past votes.

While Phoenatica did indeed have a long history of allowing certain types of comment in some voting threads, there is precedent for limiting discussion in threads as well, and right to free speech is not absolute.

donsig himself refers to the key phrase in his defense:

Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.

That donsig's posts were inappropriate was brought to his attention in increasing intensity three different times prior to the final notice resulting in this investigation.

This office supports the right of all citizens to protest and thereby call attention to their cause, as long as the protest is conducted within forum rules and laws of Phoenatica.

donsig's willful disregard for those laws and rules must be addressed and he should be found guilty.

Bill
Judge Advocate

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Judge Advocate - Notice to the Public

donsig and the Public Defender has properly reserved space for response. I encourage all to monitor those posts for changes as they continue to compile their evidence.

Discussion Phase

This investigation is now in the discussion phase, which will continue for a minimum of 48 hours (longer if I find good debate still occuring). I will not be making a call for dismissal based upon NO MERIT at this time, and will allow the discussion to fully occur.

All citizens are encouraged to participate in this issue.

I do caution that while I am not a mod (and not likely to ever be one at the rate I am going ), I will monitor this thread, and ask for swift punishment from the Mods should any inappropriate posting occur.

Further, remember again that donsig is NOT guilty of anything at this time, and must be treated as such.

Thank you for your professional participation.

Bill
Judge Advocate

 

[Chieftess]

Ok debate.

Personally, I don't see why this is still going on. The game is over, so any changes really won't effect anything. (no more build queues are being made, no deals are being worked out). I was really thinking that we would be discussing the next game, and not past issues. There are times when even I see a poll, and haven't seen all or any of the discussion. (RL, busy with the game...) It's sort of like those last minute arguements which can sway a vote. Someone might have something to say, and they just thought of it then. I think, as much as we would all like to investigate donsig (a new national sport?), I think this case should be dropped. Citizens do have the right to free speech, even if that means stopping a vote because they realize something seems unfair.

Granted, the constitution is complex, and may take longer than 24-48 hours for us 'mere mortals' to comprehend an article - even to find anything contradictory.

 

[Eklektikos]

Rebuttal posted above

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Judge Advocate Reply

I have read both donsig and Eklekitos' well crafted responses to this issue.

But citizens, keep in mind that this is not a referendum on free speech, which everyone here heartily supports. It is a review of donsig's actions once he was warned against inappropriate posts once....

then he posted again to be warned twice....

then he posted again to be warned a third time....

then he posted for the fourth time in a thread he knew full well was now off limits to him.

Instead of taking action and opening a new thread to plead his case, he intentionally posted again with demonstrated intent to force this matter to confrontation.

The events leading up to this PI are hardly oppressive, in fact, I would argue that the Mod in question showed more leaniency than would be found on any other forum.

donsig's own behavior is at issue here. He has ignored repeated warnings and violated our code of laws. He should be found guilty.

Bill
Judge Advocate

 

[Octavian X]

I must agree with the Judge Advocate. Dosig was warned multiple times discussion was inapproitiate in the thread. The Code of Laws specifically says that 'Citizens may post where approitiate.' The senatorial poll was clearly an inapproitiate place.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
But citizens, keep in mind that this is not a referendum on free speech, which everyone here heartily supports. It is a review of donsig's actions once he was warned against inappropriate posts once....

I beg to differ. The issue here is very much one of whether Donsig had the right to freedom of speech in that thread. This:

Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.

is the only law that he is specifically accused of violating, and whether or not he did so is therefore the only matter that you, our citizens, should be considering when considering your verdicts. If he had the right to post in there then the warnings are irrelevant, and the fact that he was warned does not necessarily mean that to post there was constitutionally inappropriate.

 

[Cyc]

I have to agree with the defense. Also, as we, the citizens were not allowed access to Donsig's repeated comments (if they were repititous), we cannot really judge whether they were "inappropriate" or not.

Donsig may be guilty of being a big pain in the arse, but this is not a violation of the Constitution, other-wise AJ would probably be banned by now.

As far as not heeding a Mods warning, he may be guilty of that too. But when weighed against the political contrast and the citizen/Mod status of Shaitan, Donsig may have felt provoked to lengthen attempt to produce some truisms. If he is guilty of this (which is not relevant to this PI) Mod action should be taken. As that has been by-passed to be put forward as this PI, I say Donsig walks, free and clear. (Well, maybe CT should spank him..)

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

A senatorial vote is hardly the place to air problems with a change, if donsig had a problem he shouldve opened up another thread and encouraged discussion rather than be immature and keep doing what he was doing, cuz thats all it was, was plain old iimmaturish. I agree with Chieftess tho that the game is over and we should just leave it be, but i think we should maybe pass a law that cetain areas cannot be posted in unless your A) council or B) Senate. I dont think free speech was for anyone to disrupt any proceeding. My opinion, and im sorry if its harsh to anyone.

 

[Havok]

Bah, feeble attempts to express power and prove limited superiority. Donsig did nothing wrong. Chieftess did nothing wrong, the situation it has is a very uncomplicated one...

It should be resolved in single person on person combat. With victor being cleared of all charges, and the defeated party sent to the gallows.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Havok
Bah, feeble attempts to express power and prove limited superiority. Donsig did nothing wrong. Chieftess did nothing wrong, the situation it has is a very uncomplicated one...

It should be resolved in single person on person combat. With victor being cleared of all charges, and the defeated party sent to the gallows.

Well, I've read the code of laws several times and find no where that allows us to sentence folks to duels, though it is tempting...

Oh, and Chieftess is not accussed of anything.

Finally, lets all please stay on a serious track here, the conversation is going well so far. I ask that we keep it that way.

Thanks

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
If donsig wishes to disagree with Shaitan and I participating in the game, that is his right. However, the poll on this subject clearly shows his view is that of the minority. While this subject is not technically the foundation for this PI, in reality that is what it is about.

I politely and humbly ask donsig to accept that we are going to be moderators of this forum, and that we will participate in the game. Further, I ask that Shaitan and donsig apologize to each other for whatever wrongs the other claims they committed, in the interest of peace.


Finally, and note the color of the text: If you do not blatantly disregard the rules you will not be moderated. If you are moderated, you should abide by the moderators instructions. If you do not agree with the moderation on this forum, you are free to post your objection in the site feedback forum or send a message to one of the other mods or Thunderfall.

Yes, I do disagree with moderators being active participants in the demo game. This whole controversy does beautifully illustrate why I feel as I do on this issue. However, that is only a sidebar to the main issue which is the census. (EDIT: This means I did not post in that thread just to get Shaitan to warn me. I posted there as part of the debate over the census change.) I have posted my legal defense in my first post (and would like to thank the Public Defender for his help ). Beyond that I would add that I do not think I did anything wrong by originally posting in that thread. That is what I should be judged on in this investigation.

If anyone thinks I should be held accountable for ignoring a mod's warnings then they should take that up with Thunderfall or one of the mods. I never once intended for this investigation to replace whatever actions the forum moderators would take. We are talking about two different sets of rules here and I am more than willing to defend my actions in both venues.

Since eyrei and Shaitan are now mods who want to actively participate in the demo game we must all be aware of their dual roles and be cognizant of which rules each role can enforce. in my view, mods enforce forum rules not demogame rules. Demogame rules are enforced by our citizens through our constitution, CoL, CoS and Judicial Dept. It is well that this issue hinges on the right of free speech, for our constitution guarantees it while the forum rules do not.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Cyc
Donsig may be guilty of being a big pain in the arse, but this is not a violation of the Constitution, other-wise AJ would probably be banned by now.

And let us not make it unconstitutional.

BTW, I would like to offer my apologies to Shaitan and everyone else for being a pain.

(Note: My legal council has advised me to explicitly state that the above apology is in no way an admission of guilt on my part. )

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig



Since eyrei and Shaitan are now mods who want to actively participate in the demo game we must all be aware of their dual roles and be cognizant of which rules each role can enforce. in my view, mods enforce forum rules not demogame rules. Demogame rules are enforced by our citizens through our constitution, CoL, CoS and Judicial Dept. It is well that this issue hinges on the right of free speech, for our constitution guarantees it while the forum rules do not.

I actually was intending to start a discussion on this very subject. Because Shaitan and I obviously spend a lot more time on this forum than Duke does, it is possible for us to the enforce the demogame rules as well as forum rules. However, I do not necessarily think this is a good idea. We do seem to all enjoy a good PI. This is a topic for another thread.

I would like to congratulate the justice department, as this investigation is being conducted in a very pleasing manner.