Puppet City Visibility
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
Did you even read the description?
Did you even read the post you´re copying?
Let me recap:
damn Jazus, good for you. As for me, I won´t be using it as I see no need for it.
Afforess, thanks for taking the time to create this mod. It certainly gives an idea of what is possible and does fix a oversight on Firaxis's part.
However, I have not downloaded it - was tempted to by the description in ModBuddy but when I saw that you were also able to affect production (focus, purchase) I decided not to.
Let me explain - many of us agree that being able to see a puppet city screen is an oversight - any mod that provides this missing information is greatly welcome. Being able to see what buildings (particular wonders) are within is a godsend.
At the same time, we want to respect the current design distinction between annexed and puppeted cities i.e. you have to provide defensive units for puppeted cities and you cannot control their production.
Being able to change focus, including:
i. setting no growth so that puppet impact on happiness is reduced;
ii. focussing on science or production as required
as well as
iii. being able to insta-purchase units on puppeted borders, thereby negating travel time from core (annexed) cities to the border I think changes the dynamic between annexing and puppeting too much.
The drawbacks of puppetting are now much less, making the decision to annex vs puppet a lot less interesting. From a strategic standpoint there is now less reason to annex.
I respect that this is your mod and the content provided is entirely up to you. However I suspect that if you released a "view-only" version of this mod it would be immensely popular.
However, I have not downloaded it - was tempted to by the description in ModBuddy but when I saw that you were also able to affect production (focus, purchase) I decided not to.
Let me explain - many of us agree that being able to see a puppet city screen is an oversight - any mod that provides this missing information is greatly welcome. Being able to see what buildings (particular wonders) are within is a godsend.
At the same time, we want to respect the current design distinction between annexed and puppeted cities i.e. you have to provide defensive units for puppeted cities and you cannot control their production.
Being able to change focus, including:
i. setting no growth so that puppet impact on happiness is reduced;
ii. focussing on science or production as required
as well as
iii. being able to insta-purchase units on puppeted borders, thereby negating travel time from core (annexed) cities to the border I think changes the dynamic between annexing and puppeting too much.
The drawbacks of puppetting are now much less, making the decision to annex vs puppet a lot less interesting. From a strategic standpoint there is now less reason to annex.
I respect that this is your mod and the content provided is entirely up to you. However I suspect that if you released a "view-only" version of this mod it would be immensely popular.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
+1 for this.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Yes I did. Please tell me what I am misinterpreting from it:
Right there, you say this mod allows the control of puppet city production, but you're wrong, it doesn't. Now tell me, where did I misread.
I guess we fundamentally disagree on what controlling production means than. I think controlling production means assigning what your hammers go to, and what the city produces, not what you purchase.
Dict4t0rCiv
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 35
Good mod, I like it. 
I actually agree with Afforess on focus.
If I am the master of a Puppet State/City I should be able to tell them that for the benefit of my empire I want them to focus on XYZ. I conquered them initially and as I am master it is by my good grace they are puppets and not annexed.
Wikipedia states that...
The key word in the quote is "controlled". My Civ controls Civ ABC and in return for a slightly happier populace I let them 'self' govern and continue to do so while its in MY CIVs interest. My civs interests of their focus should be allowed IMO. This can be aided by a cash injection from my civ for something I deem worthy in my puppet.
Edit: only reason i haven't used it yet is compatibility with economy mod.
If I am the master of a Puppet State/City I should be able to tell them that for the benefit of my empire I want them to focus on XYZ. I conquered them initially and as I am master it is by my good grace they are puppets and not annexed.
Wikipedia states that...
The key word in the quote is "controlled". My Civ controls Civ ABC and in return for a slightly happier populace I let them 'self' govern and continue to do so while its in MY CIVs interest. My civs interests of their focus should be allowed IMO. This can be aided by a cash injection from my civ for something I deem worthy in my puppet.
Edit: only reason i haven't used it yet is compatibility with economy mod.
Anyone else run into this problem?
I took two AI cities, had both as puppets. Once my happiness was able to withstand annexing them, I annexed the first one with no problems from the city view screen. However, the second one cannot be annexed. The option is there when I go into the city screen, but I'm unable to select it.
Any ideas?
I took two AI cities, had both as puppets. Once my happiness was able to withstand annexing them, I annexed the first one with no problems from the city view screen. However, the second one cannot be annexed. The option is there when I go into the city screen, but I'm unable to select it.
Any ideas?
Afforess
The White Wizard
Not sure what you mean. Is the button greyed out, or did selecting it have no effect. A screenshot speaks 1k words.
Perkus
Prince
This mod was one of the first I pulled off of the Mod Browser. It was one of the biggest needs I saw in the game, in particular the fact you can't even see what Wonders you've captured when you take over cities unless you annex them. Also, when you wish to Raze one or more cities due to Unhappiness but have several possible choices, I find it dumb that I need to save the game, annex them all, check what buildings/wonders they have in them, and then decide which are worth keeping or not (e.g. if it has a Colloseum, it's generally worth keeping around, as it keeps itself happy).
However, as many others here have also pointed out, I didn't like having even limited control over the puppet city. I just wanted to be able to have a quick peek, not "cheat".
Anyway, I went and started reading the mod's code, started learning ModBuddy, etc. and my very first "learning to mod Civ 5" project was to started hacking away at this mod and try to make it do what I want. I was pretty ignorant of the mod scene at the time - I wasn't reading this website, hadn't read this thread, had no clue Afforess was some sort of legends in there parts, etc. If I'd known I would have proceeded differently. I only found you guys after doing the bulk of the changes on my own.
Now, here's my situation. I put a lot of work into it, improving on the mod in several important respects. I would say at least 2/3rds of the changes in it are now "my code", as opposed to Afforess'. That said, the key concepts remain the same, I kept his xml files changes that add the "Annex" button inside the city screen, etc. I kept his commented changes where appropriate, and maintained maximum possible respect to him(?) as the original creator. At first I had no idea if I could make it work, and for a while I didn't know if what I had should be made public. But having spent a lot of time catching up with what's going on here over the past week, and reading this thread, I am now quite certain I should be making my version of the mod public in some way, so those who prefer it my way can benefit. It doesn't sound like Afforess is in any hurry to make additional changes to it at this time, from what I've just read.
Anyway I would like to publish what I have somehow - upload it here, and on the mod browser. But I don't want to step on any toes - I wasn't trying to steal anything, I was just doing what I thought best at the time. Is there some sort of established protocol on publishing mods of another author's mod? Currently I'm calling it "View Puppets", with me as the sole author, and have Afforess listed as a "Thanks To". Should I add you as a second author, Afforess? I didn't want to imply that you should be expected to support my version somehow. Should I upload it here first so you can have a look at it? Send it to you privately? I'll list the changes I made separately in the next message.
However, as many others here have also pointed out, I didn't like having even limited control over the puppet city. I just wanted to be able to have a quick peek, not "cheat".
Anyway, I went and started reading the mod's code, started learning ModBuddy, etc. and my very first "learning to mod Civ 5" project was to started hacking away at this mod and try to make it do what I want. I was pretty ignorant of the mod scene at the time - I wasn't reading this website, hadn't read this thread, had no clue Afforess was some sort of legends in there parts, etc. If I'd known I would have proceeded differently. I only found you guys after doing the bulk of the changes on my own.
Now, here's my situation. I put a lot of work into it, improving on the mod in several important respects. I would say at least 2/3rds of the changes in it are now "my code", as opposed to Afforess'. That said, the key concepts remain the same, I kept his xml files changes that add the "Annex" button inside the city screen, etc. I kept his commented changes where appropriate, and maintained maximum possible respect to him(?) as the original creator. At first I had no idea if I could make it work, and for a while I didn't know if what I had should be made public. But having spent a lot of time catching up with what's going on here over the past week, and reading this thread, I am now quite certain I should be making my version of the mod public in some way, so those who prefer it my way can benefit. It doesn't sound like Afforess is in any hurry to make additional changes to it at this time, from what I've just read.
Anyway I would like to publish what I have somehow - upload it here, and on the mod browser. But I don't want to step on any toes - I wasn't trying to steal anything, I was just doing what I thought best at the time. Is there some sort of established protocol on publishing mods of another author's mod? Currently I'm calling it "View Puppets", with me as the sole author, and have Afforess listed as a "Thanks To". Should I add you as a second author, Afforess? I didn't want to imply that you should be expected to support my version somehow. Should I upload it here first so you can have a look at it? Send it to you privately? I'll list the changes I made separately in the next message.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I actually made it because players need to see the stability issues in puppet cities for the Revolution mod I'm working on.
Specialist control is not intended, but other than that, I guess we have design philosophy differences.
I'm a legend? News to me.
I've been in the same situations as you many times. I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did. I thanked & credited the original authors for the original inspiration and groundwork code, then released it as my own. Feel free to do the same. However, I am curious to see your code, since I still plan on using the mod for Revolutions. Did you ever work out how to fix the happiness issue? I'm more interested in your implementation than I am who gets credit for what.
Perkus
Prince
As I just finished explaining in my post above, I have independently created a "mod of this mod" with the following changes:
-Strictly for "viewing puppets" - prevents any changes to production, worker assignments, specialists, city focus, and any purchases. Does still allow renaming.
- Doesn't mess with your Happiness! I found a better way to handle this cleanly which doesn't change your happiness while viewing puppets. Which is really nice because you don't need to remember the difference, even if you're well aware of this wrinkle. Also, if the difference changes your "happiness bracket", e.g. takes you below 0, it causes the city to redistribute its workers (temporarily, anyway) to de-emphasize growth. This is annoying if you want to see how the city is using its workforce, only to have it changed because you've temporarily taken off the puppet flag. I've avoided all this hassle.
- Supports cycling through all your puppet cities via the left/right arrows on the top banner in the city screen (or left/right arrow keys). The original only changes the one city at a time, letting you cycle and return to it. I let you cycle through all your puppet cities (as well as the regulars). Much nicer if you wish to look at several puppets at once (which is often), such as when planning to raze/annex some.
(NOTE: To *skip* puppet cities while cycling in city view, hold down the SHIFT key!)
- You can now also view puppet cities via the city list panel (top left corner).
- The production is disabled in a different way - the button itself is disabled, instead of showing a list of things that you can't choose to build.
- Found & fixed the bug in the original recently reported here which prevents multiple cities from being annexed in the same game session because the Annex button remains disabled after use. The fix is simply adding this line in CityView.lua in the first branch of the 'Raze City Button' section to re-enable the button on each entry:
Controls.RazeCityButton:SetDisabled(false);
And 2 minor fixes of "Firaxis" bugs:
- Fixes specialist right-click to "pedia" links. This was linking to pedia links for the buildings, not specialists, and the wrong building at that (the last one right-clicked), or a blank entry if not used yet.
- The little city state icons are now always right below city name. They used to appear below the "WLTKD" or "Resource wanted" banners, which I found really annoying when I was quickly looking for the puppet indicator while scrolling through many cities.
I also merged in a few changes I liked from other mods that alter City View or City View Manager. I don't think any of these are controversial, just nice UI improvements:
From "Copasetic UI Tweaks( v2)":
* Player-owned city banners now display a culture bar.
* When a city is starving, show number of turns until population falls on the city banner.
* Make growth meter red if city is starving.
From QueueOn (v 2):
* Always starts with Citizen Allocation Focus panel open in order to show which plots are being worked.
* Show production needed = 0 while a city is being razed
I've just read Afforess' prompt post above, so I will try to upload this here soon. I think it must be approved first. I'd like to let Afforess see the changes ASAP, so maybe I'll go put it on RapidShare first or something. Back when I do...
-Strictly for "viewing puppets" - prevents any changes to production, worker assignments, specialists, city focus, and any purchases. Does still allow renaming.
- Doesn't mess with your Happiness! I found a better way to handle this cleanly which doesn't change your happiness while viewing puppets. Which is really nice because you don't need to remember the difference, even if you're well aware of this wrinkle. Also, if the difference changes your "happiness bracket", e.g. takes you below 0, it causes the city to redistribute its workers (temporarily, anyway) to de-emphasize growth. This is annoying if you want to see how the city is using its workforce, only to have it changed because you've temporarily taken off the puppet flag. I've avoided all this hassle.
- Supports cycling through all your puppet cities via the left/right arrows on the top banner in the city screen (or left/right arrow keys). The original only changes the one city at a time, letting you cycle and return to it. I let you cycle through all your puppet cities (as well as the regulars). Much nicer if you wish to look at several puppets at once (which is often), such as when planning to raze/annex some.
(NOTE: To *skip* puppet cities while cycling in city view, hold down the SHIFT key!)
- You can now also view puppet cities via the city list panel (top left corner).
- The production is disabled in a different way - the button itself is disabled, instead of showing a list of things that you can't choose to build.
- Found & fixed the bug in the original recently reported here which prevents multiple cities from being annexed in the same game session because the Annex button remains disabled after use. The fix is simply adding this line in CityView.lua in the first branch of the 'Raze City Button' section to re-enable the button on each entry:
Controls.RazeCityButton:SetDisabled(false);
And 2 minor fixes of "Firaxis" bugs:
- Fixes specialist right-click to "pedia" links. This was linking to pedia links for the buildings, not specialists, and the wrong building at that (the last one right-clicked), or a blank entry if not used yet.
- The little city state icons are now always right below city name. They used to appear below the "WLTKD" or "Resource wanted" banners, which I found really annoying when I was quickly looking for the puppet indicator while scrolling through many cities.
I also merged in a few changes I liked from other mods that alter City View or City View Manager. I don't think any of these are controversial, just nice UI improvements:
From "Copasetic UI Tweaks( v2)":
* Player-owned city banners now display a culture bar.
* When a city is starving, show number of turns until population falls on the city banner.
* Make growth meter red if city is starving.
From QueueOn (v 2):
* Always starts with Citizen Allocation Focus panel open in order to show which plots are being worked.
* Show production needed = 0 while a city is being razed
I've just read Afforess' prompt post above, so I will try to upload this here soon. I think it must be approved first. I'd like to let Afforess see the changes ASAP, so maybe I'll go put it on RapidShare first or something. Back when I do...
Afforess
The White Wizard
Well, you've piqued my curiosity. Three modding breakthroughs in a day...
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Piqued mine as well, as the happiness issue was the main reason I haven't included this yet (rest could be tweaked by myself, but I didn't want to spend time looking for an alternative there. 
).
).Perkus
Prince
Ok, it's up at RapidShare: http://rapidshare.com/files/425915069/View_Puppets__v_1_.civ5mod and also submitted here in the Download section (waiting for moderator approval). I'll let people mess with it for a while before I put it on the big Mod Browser just in case there's something seriously wrong with it.
Let's just say that your 10,000+ posts here freaked me out a little when I first saw who I was trifling with!
Well, it actually turned out to be really trivial. Instead of keeping the city as a non-puppet throughout, I simply make it a non-puppet just before calling UI.DoSelectCityAtPlot, then immediately set it back. I didn't expect it to be that simple, but it worked! It lets you into the city screen, and everything there seems to work just fine even though the city you're viewing is still a puppet. I don't have to even store which city I'm looking at to reverse it later!
The slightly trickier part was when I decided to let you cycle through the puppets. But it works much the same way. Here I centralize all the Game.DoControl calls that switch to NEXTCITY/PREVCITY. Before calling it, I temporarily un-puppet ALL the player's puppet city, keeping a list, call the DoControl, which lets it select the next city even if it's a puppet, and immediately set them all back to being puppets! It's surprising that it works so well given that it's pretty straightforward. I hope I didn't miss some horrible side effect of doing this somehow? I was a bit surprised you didn't do it that way in the first place?
My one dilemma is that I want to support cycling through multiple puppets, but I also realize that much of the time you'll only want to cycle through the cities that you have control over. I've rigged up holding the SHIFT key to toggle betwenn the two cycling modes, and it works well enough. But I struggled with which way it should default to. I ultimately chose to make it include puppets by default. I figure if I go the other way, people will assume that it doesn't work on puppets and might never discover the SHIFT key. But the way it is, it may just really annoy them if they don't pay attention to the note in the description. I might have to flip this, depending on feedback. If this gets used enough, I'll put in some sort of config file where this would be more clearly visible as an option.
I also thought I'd put in an option to allow full (or some of partial?) control over puppets, for those who do want to use this like Afforess' original version.
The downside of preventing any changes to the city is that the mod is really quite intrusive in terms of the number of separate edits required in the CityView.lua file. I have to intercept a whole bunch of different event handlers. So it will be a pain to merge this file with other mods unless you start with mine as the base.
It's not perfect in the way it disables everything in terms of visual feedback, but I figured it's good enough...
I'll start my own thread here on this I once it gets approved... Sorry for the threadjack.
I'm a legend? News to me.
Let's just say that your 10,000+ posts here freaked me out a little when I first saw who I was trifling with!
Well, it actually turned out to be really trivial. Instead of keeping the city as a non-puppet throughout, I simply make it a non-puppet just before calling UI.DoSelectCityAtPlot, then immediately set it back. I didn't expect it to be that simple, but it worked! It lets you into the city screen, and everything there seems to work just fine even though the city you're viewing is still a puppet. I don't have to even store which city I'm looking at to reverse it later!
The slightly trickier part was when I decided to let you cycle through the puppets. But it works much the same way. Here I centralize all the Game.DoControl calls that switch to NEXTCITY/PREVCITY. Before calling it, I temporarily un-puppet ALL the player's puppet city, keeping a list, call the DoControl, which lets it select the next city even if it's a puppet, and immediately set them all back to being puppets! It's surprising that it works so well given that it's pretty straightforward. I hope I didn't miss some horrible side effect of doing this somehow? I was a bit surprised you didn't do it that way in the first place?
My one dilemma is that I want to support cycling through multiple puppets, but I also realize that much of the time you'll only want to cycle through the cities that you have control over. I've rigged up holding the SHIFT key to toggle betwenn the two cycling modes, and it works well enough. But I struggled with which way it should default to. I ultimately chose to make it include puppets by default. I figure if I go the other way, people will assume that it doesn't work on puppets and might never discover the SHIFT key. But the way it is, it may just really annoy them if they don't pay attention to the note in the description. I might have to flip this, depending on feedback. If this gets used enough, I'll put in some sort of config file where this would be more clearly visible as an option.
I also thought I'd put in an option to allow full (or some of partial?) control over puppets, for those who do want to use this like Afforess' original version.
The downside of preventing any changes to the city is that the mod is really quite intrusive in terms of the number of separate edits required in the CityView.lua file. I have to intercept a whole bunch of different event handlers. So it will be a pain to merge this file with other mods unless you start with mine as the base.
It's not perfect in the way it disables everything in terms of visual feedback, but I figured it's good enough...
I'll start my own thread here on this I once it gets approved... Sorry for the threadjack.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
^just tried that version, and it works wonderfully. Other UI tweaks are non-intrusive and do their job fine. And I guess it's good idea to have them here, since mods from which they are taken are not compatible with it.
Although I would guess there will be those who would prefer "clean" version of the View Puppets too.
Although I would guess there will be those who would prefer "clean" version of the View Puppets too.
Perkus
Prince
Ok, it apparently takes a while to get approved here. I've gone ahead and started a thread for my version here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=393328. Please direct further comments specific to this forked version there.
The mod is available in that thread as an attachment, and is now on the Civ 5 Mod Browser. It should also appear in the Downloads section here if & when approved.
The mod is available in that thread as an attachment, and is now on the Civ 5 Mod Browser. It should also appear in the Downloads section here if & when approved.
Perkus
Prince
Just thought I would point out here that game patch 1.0.0.62 has added a "View City" button to the popup menu for clicking on a puppet city, and essentially made my mod, "View Puppets" obsolete. I have withdrawn it from the mod browser and the moderation queue here. Since the official version is like mine and doesn't permit any changes to the puppet cities, Afforess original version still retains merit as a "Control Puppets" mod. However be advised that you will not be able to sell buildings via our modded city screen interface while you have either of these enabled unless a newly merged version is made available.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
It is that View City button that prevented me from merging either Puppet City Visibility or View Puppets, actually. I knew it was coming, so saw no reason to merge them.
But yes, Afforess's version retains some merit; Namely, being able to purchase units, or set city focuses.
I knew it was coming, so saw no reason to merge them.But yes, Afforess's version retains some merit; Namely, being able to purchase units, or set city focuses.
