yes there is an exception for venice (and implementing this by the way uncovered a number of other places where the venice exception was not being applied).
also, processes work normally for puppets, no double penalty.
Puppets and defensive buildings, part 2
- Thread starter LifeOfBrian
- Start date
yes there is an exception for venice (and implementing this by the way uncovered a number of other places where the venice exception was not being applied).
also, processes work normally for puppets, no double penalty.
Having a 20:1 ratio of production to science/culture with no buildings being built makes puppet cities worthless yield-wise given the happiness cost, and same with the related Imperialism policies.
Now, this is not necessarily bad, it's a nerf to warmongering, which a lot of people agreed to be the best strategy. With this change, puppet cities become buffer zones and luxury/strategic resource sources. I'm fine with that, although I do think the Imperialism policies could be changed to something more useful.
Now, this is not necessarily bad, it's a nerf to warmongering, which a lot of people agreed to be the best strategy. With this change, puppet cities become buffer zones and luxury/strategic resource sources. I'm fine with that, although I do think the Imperialism policies could be changed to something more useful.
SuperNoobCamper
King
I can't say i'm a fan of the last change to puppets at all, yield wise they already have a hefty penalty of -80% to yields while still consuming full maintainance.
Colonialism was nerfed sometime ago so the puppet yields was lowered from 50% to 40% and i really did not see no one calling for another nerf to puppets.
The fact that a city conquered in the classical era would have basically no buildings at all when you have enough happiness to support it feel really bad.
Also Civilising Mission is supposed to grant a production bonus to puppets towards buildings which is almost irrelevant since puppets would be running processess 99% of the time.
Sure, it removed the economic burden of building useless buildings while consuming full maintenance but i think the downside is way worse than the benefit.
Colonialism was nerfed sometime ago so the puppet yields was lowered from 50% to 40% and i really did not see no one calling for another nerf to puppets.
The fact that a city conquered in the classical era would have basically no buildings at all when you have enough happiness to support it feel really bad.
Also Civilising Mission is supposed to grant a production bonus to puppets towards buildings which is almost irrelevant since puppets would be running processess 99% of the time.
Sure, it removed the economic burden of building useless buildings while consuming full maintenance but i think the downside is way worse than the benefit.
One alternative to keep some of the spirit of the change but gives us back some things is to cut it off at Industrial Era Buildings.
Aka, a puppet will build all buildings like normal, but will shift to processes over Industrial era buildings.
I choose Industrial Era because:
Aka, a puppet will build all buildings like normal, but will shift to processes over Industrial era buildings.
I choose Industrial Era because:
- Maintenance really starts to increase at this point (and it was maintenance concerns that started this path in the first place).
- This is the point where I think buildings become "questionable" as far as their hammers now versus yields over only a short span of turns. This is probably much more true for the puppet, so you may get better value just running processes at that point.
@iteroi to make sure I understand this.
Lets say I have 100 hammers as my base in the city.
- The hammers drop to 20 because of the 80% puppet penalty.
- The 20 hammers are converted to 5 science using science process. You get 5 science, not 1 (which would be 5 reduced by 80%).
Omen of Peace
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
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- 404
Do puppets have a hammer penalty? IIRC the penalty applies to culture/faith/gold/science, but not food nor growth (which gets lowered by the unhappiness anyway), nor hammers.
So I understand that the 100 hammers would produce 20 science (not reduced by the 80% penalty) which is fairly efficient.
I do like your proposal to build all building up to a certain stage, either Medieval or Renaissance. (I think I'd lean towards Medieval.)
General_Drax
Warlord
Tbh I'm happy with this change and 90 % of my games are warmongering spree (have yet to win ONE game vs AI on Emperor difficulty with a peaceful play).
I hate puppets with a passion: they generate unavoidable unhappiness, low yields even with a full Imperialism tree, cannot but faith building (without a dedicated mod) and they cost a ton in building maintenance but AIs love starting cities in location I never chose (one tile island, 0 luxuries, few strategics, etc). Razing is good but require times and generate unhappiness.
I could use one more option: Raze the city and give me a Fort/Citadel with some territory around.
I hate puppets with a passion: they generate unavoidable unhappiness, low yields even with a full Imperialism tree, cannot but faith building (without a dedicated mod) and they cost a ton in building maintenance but AIs love starting cities in location I never chose (one tile island, 0 luxuries, few strategics, etc). Razing is good but require times and generate unhappiness.
I could use one more option: Raze the city and give me a Fort/Citadel with some territory around.
I used to use puppets a lot until the most recent iteration of the happiness system and i got i got a better understanding of the happiness system.
Classic war monger example, in a pivitol game in this decision i was dipping heavily into unhappiness, i was doing everything i could to boost happiness but nothing was helping until i realised i had 700+ happiness sources with 600+ citizens so way more than enough happniess income but a large portion of my cities were puppets so i only had 400+ non puppet citizens thus with the happiness system as it stands in the current release version it would only register 400+ happiness as puppets can't add happiness but they can add unhappiness so i had 600+ unhappiness. I then annexed all cities and added a courthouse and my happiness was fine as i actually had enough happiness to provide happiness to all my citizens and i could actively grow my cities as i still had 100+ spare happiness my citizens could grow in to.
This is icing on the cake considering they don't build defensive buildings etc
The only time i give a second thought about annexing a puppet is if i am playing a tourism game (which may change depending on how it ends up with the beta changes) although the general opportunity cost (gain) of annexing and fully controlling the city usually outweighs the potential effect on tourism of an additional non puppet city.
Puppeting is only really an early game decision where you may not have access to courthouses yet and happiness is often much more finely balanced or when having a very successful war so you are gaining a large number of cities and potential unhappiness until courthouses come on line so it may be prudent to annex them one at a time rather than taking the huge happiness hit from annexing them all at once where in those instances then end goal is annex them once happiness stabilises.
These days i generally consider vassals as puppets as they fulfill the traditional puppet role with the added benefits that they tend to look after themselves much better and provide you with a good all round benefit to your empire without you having to micro manage them in any way, not even having to send workers.
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