Quechua Question/Bug?

[Merkinball]

What's going on here. Why am I not getting my 100% bonus verse an archer? Why is only the 10% bonus getting reflected here?

 

[Silence101]

You are getting it - but the archer is getting 175% against you.

 

[Psyringe]

What's going on here. Why am I not getting my 100% bonus verse an archer? Why is only the 10% bonus getting reflected here?

Hm? The bonus is listed and you do get it, I don't see the problem? *scratches head*

Edit: To clarify, the 100% against archers are not added to your unit's strength, they are subtracted from the archer's strength (the formula is a little more complex when the archer doesn't have at least 100% of bonus, but there are in-depth articles about that in the strategy section).

 

[ori]

What's going on here. Why am I not getting my 100% bonus verse an archer? Why is only the 10% bonus getting reflected here?

I am not sure what your problem is: the 100% is clearly depicted. I do suspect you would want something like 4.20 strength for your quecha, but the game does not work this way. Apart from the combat promotions which are attributed to the unit that has them all other bonuses are applied to the defending unit, i.e.
Quecha: 2*(1+0.1)=2.2
Archer: 3 * (1+0.1+0.65+0.25+0.5+0.25-1) = 5.25 as he is at 0.74 health: 5.25*0.74=3.885=3.88=all is well

 

[Merkinball]

If I was getting it, then doesn't the strength reflect that in that graphic? Wouldn't my strength be 2 X (100%) = 4 X 10% = 4.4 strength total?
Versus the archer?

Also, what is with the 65% tile defense nonsense? Is that culture + hill?

 

[ori]

If I was getting it, then doesn't the strength reflect that in that graphic? Wouldn't my strength be 2 X (100%) = 4 X 10% = 4.4 strength total?
Versus the archer?

I love x-posting

Also, what is with the 65% tile defense nonsense? Is that culture + hill?

 

[Merkinball]

I am not sure what your problem is: the 100% is clearly depicted. I do suspect you would want something like 4.20 strength for your quecha, but the game does not work this way. Apart from the combat promotions which are attributed to the unit that has them all other bonuses are applied to the defending unit, i.e.
Quecha: 2*(1+0.1)=2.2
Archer: 3 * (1+0.1+0.65+0.25+0.5+0.25-1) = 5.25 as he is at 0.74 health: 5.25*0.74=3.885=3.88=all is well

So am I getting the 100% or not. It's depicted, yes, but not reflected in strength. The point of this unit is to early rush. Correct? I don't ever remember problems such as I'm facing in this scenario. If I am indeed getting the bonus, then my battle odds should be better than 50%, and I should take these archers out no problem with my remaining units. I don't. In fact, no matter how many times I redo this, I don't even do any damage to them from this point on. If the 100% is depicted, but I don't get the bonus because all the other bonuses go to the defending unit, then what the f--k is the point of Quechua rushing. If this bonus is attributed, but not reflected in battle odds, then that's something that's pretty stupid don't you think?

 

[ori]

So am I getting the 100% or not. It's depicted, yes, but not reflected in strength. The point of this unit is to early rush. Correct? I don't ever remember problems such as I'm facing in this scenario. If I am indeed getting the bonus, then my battle odds should be better than 50%, and I should take these archers out no problem with my remaining units. I don't. In fact, no matter how many times I redo this, I don't even do any damage to them from this point on. If the 100% is depicted, but I don't get the bonus because all the other bonuses go to the defending unit, then what the f--k is the point of Quechua rushing. If this bonus is attributed, but not reflected in battle odds, then that's something that's pretty stupid don't you think?

If you look carefully at the calculation you'll see the 100% subtracted from the archer, this is the way it works and in your case it is even better than if you would get it for the quecha (+100% of quecha = 2 while -100% of archer = 3). So: you get the bonus but it is applied in a way you did not expect (namely deducted from the defender's strength and not added to the attacker's).

 

[Psyringe]

If I am indeed getting the bonus, then my battle odds should be better than 50%, and I should take these archers out no problem with my remaining units.

That's the mistake you're making (and that's presently preventing you from understanding the combat mechanics better). The point of a Quechua rush is to do it *fast*, because even though you get a hefty bonus against archers, the base strength of your unit is still merely 2 points. An archer can easily overcome your 100% bonus against it when you allow it to collect a couple of bonuses, especially when standing on a hill. And when you allow your opponent to get 40% cultural defense in its cities, then you're either rushing too slowly, or playing on game settings that put early rushers at a disadvantage (like a huge map, or quick gamespeed).

 

[Merkinball]

Alright, I think I get how this is getting accounted for.

It still seems as though the total is high for the archer.

If it's factored in as such, should it be

/ (3(.3 + 1.95 + .75 + 1.5 + .75)) <----- Archers bonus \
| ------------------------------ | X .74 = 3.05
\ 2 <----100% bonus vs. Archer /

At any rate, nuts to this rush...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The point is that it is '+'100% and not 'x'2
so ALL those bonuses are Added together (your bonus is a penalty for the archer)

 

[Merkinball]

Yeah, it grudgingly makes sense now. Note to self, no more Quechua rushes to cities on hills...

My other two numbers have capitals on hills too...kinda like my games with Darius with no horse in a more subtle manner I suppose.

Back to the drawing board...

 

[Psyringe]

You *can* do Quechua rushes against cities on hills (and will probably have to in any rush), but you need more promotions on your Quechua. Go against less protected cities first, rack up experience, and try to keep the high-xp units alive, even when that means sacrificing one or two less developed units. With CR3 and Cover, you more than equalize the hills bonus of the defender.

The really tough nuts to crack are protective civs with promoted archers on hills. And Babylonians, due to the anti-melee bonus of their UU.

 

[Silence101]

When attacking a city protected with fortified archers, I'd expect to lose a few units softening up the defense anyway. You may lose a few Quechua's, but if you're attack with six or eight, in the early game I think you should end up on top.

 

[DigitalBoy]

The +100% bonus against archers decreases the archer's strength instead of adding to your Quecha's strength because the archer is defending. The archer just has so many other bonuses that he's still in the green.

 

[Merkinball]

You *can* do Quechua rushes against cities on hills (and will probably have to in any rush), but you need more promotions on your Quechua. Go against less protected cities first, rack up experience, and try to keep the high-xp units alive, even when that means sacrificing one or two less developed units. With CR3 and Cover, you more than equalize the hills bonus of the defender.

The really tough nuts to crack are protective civs with promoted archers on hills. And Babylonians, due to the anti-melee bonus of their UU.

That's kind of a catch 22 though. I kept a couple Quechua's outside his borders to catch his settlers so that I wouldn't lose any Quecha's taking a second or third settled city. This too, allows Mutal to build up more culture defense, thus making it more difficult to take. After all, a Quechua rush is supposed to be done fast right?

I suppose I could put up a barracks and get the one extra promotion, but getting a Huecha to CR3 in a timely manner is a tall order.

I think the best thing to do in this case is just wait until construction, take down his defences and then take his land.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well the Quecha's are definitely good for the purpose you have been using them for (strangulation) since they need a Resource unit to have a good chance of countering you.