Question about Disappearance Probability of Resources

Camber

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If a resource has a disappearance probability value, can it be "exhausted" before it shows up on the map?

I'm aware that resources are actually "on" the map throughout the game, whether or not the human player can see them. This is why the AI will target a seemingly non-profitable area of the map for colonization, since it can see the resources there that will only become visible later to the human player. Since the resources are on the map all along, even before you research the techs needed to view them, I wonder if they can become "exhausted" by having a road built over them before they even become visible.
 
iirc, the 'exhaustion' of a resource is compltely random; ie, it uses the no. in the editor (random disappearance ratio #). i don't think that having a road to it before it's discovered would deplete it.
 
Doesn't a resource have to be connected to a road before it is vulnerable to the random disappearance ratio though?
 
Camber said:
Doesn't a resource have to be connected to a road before it is vulnerable to the random disappearance ratio though?
Yes, unconnected resources are in no risk of disappearing.
 
Sorry but thats not right. Resources run the risk of disapearing whether conected or not. However you will always have the same amount as you start with as another source pops up elsewhere on the map.

According to the editor help if a resource has an appearance ratio of 160 that gives roughly 2 sources per civ.

And a disapearance ratio of 800 would mean that each source has a 1 in 800 chance per turn of disapearing (but will reapear elsewhere).
 
Ahem, yes it is right. Unconnected resources do not disappear, it is a common strategy to pillage roads on surplus resources you want to keep as a spare in the case resource(s) in use gets 'exhausted'.
 
It sounds like there is still no consensus on the question of whether unconnected resources can disappear.

But can "connected" resources that you cannot yet see (i.e., you haven't researched the requisite tech yet) disappear before you see it? Someone working frequently from a preset map would probably be able to answer this, if they ever noticed a resource (like Coal) not appearing where it was supposed to when they got the appropriate tech (like Steam Power).

I'm also interested in whether anyone knows the operational limits of the disappearance probability values for resources. If I double the value for Iron to 1600 (normally it is 800), will Iron be twice as unlikely to disappear, or is there a limit at 1000?
 
I have just gone back and read the editor help notes on this...It says that " a resource can be exhausted even if a civ has never USED it." I must admit that maybe i'm wrong but i took this term to be "connected" as a civ cannot "use" a resource untill connected. I was working on the assumption that the two were basically the same thing.
I am also certain i have seen unconected resources disappear before i managed to get a road to them in game...but hey if i'm wrong...i'm wrong and i hold my hands up and appologise.

The disapearance ratio for iron is 1 chance in 800 per turn that it will disapear.

If you set it to 1600 it becomes 1 chance in 1600 that it'll disapear.

If you set it to 400 that gives you 1 chance in 400 per turn.

Basically the higher the figure..the LESS likely it is to disapear. (except if you set it to zero...that means it will never disapear). Hope that helps camber!
 
As I read that help it's that a iron resource can disappear if you have it connected even if you have never built a swordsman.
You cannot use a resource without it being connected, but you can connect a resource without using it.
It even makes sense from a programming POV, even if it's counter-intuitive. :)
 
Thanks everyone. I'm very clear on the fact that unused (but connected) resources can disappear, and that connected resources can disappear--period. But it does indeed matter to my mod whether or not a tile that has an undiscovered resource could lose that resource (as a random event within the bounds of its disappearance probability) before the resource is discovered IF the tile has a road.

You see, my mod is an altered version of Rhye's of Civilization. It uses a world map for the scenario, in which all resources have been placed according to where those resources actually exist in real life. It has taken countless hours for me to research where the major deposits of Copper were in the ancient era, for example, or where current deposits of boron-containing compounds are mined (such as Borax). Some of these strategic resources won't appear on the map until the Space Age (the fourth era in my mod; I've compressed the Industrial and Modern eras together). So it would make a mess of my map if some of the resources that are supposed to appear late in the game (such as Boron and Titanium), get moved away from their historical locations before the game even gets to the Space Age.

In making Rhye's of Civilization, Rhye decided to remove all disappearance probabilities from the resources because it would create problems if some civs didn't get access to their intended resources. For example, if England lost its Coal, they wouldn't be able to become the industrial powerhouse that they were historically. Worse, Rhye has fine-tuned the map so that the highly industrialized European nations won't be overpowered (given their close proximity to one another, they trade techs more than do other civs on the map, and so they tend to be more advanced in the tech race). To counteract this tech advantage for European civs, Rhye has placed some handicapping "bonus" resources and landmark terrain on the map. For example, being close to Europe and having a lot of room to expand, Russia would be overpowered if it weren't for a lot of poor-quality landmark terrain that is placed in its vicinity. The mixture of resources, terrain, and available landspace for cities is finely tuned to keep some civs from having a guaranteed win. But a lot of the balance depends on the assumption that civs will have access to certain resources. Hence the decision to remove the disappearance probability values for strategic resources in the Rhye's of Civilization mod.

Then I come along. I want to expand the Rhye's of Civilization mod and allow for a space age. I wonder if rather than removing the disappearance probability values entirely, I could just double them--making them twice as un-likely to disappear as normal.

But I'm bothered by the possibility that a resource counts as being "present" on the map even if it isn't yet visible to a player. The AI players, for example, can always see where resources will later appear on the map, and choose their city locations accordingly.

Here's another take on the question. What if I can see a resource (say, Saltpeter) that is in my neighbor's empire. I have researched Gunpowder, so I can see where the resource will be. He hasn't yet researched Gunpowder, so the resource technically shouldn't be visible to him yet. But I can see it. And I can see that he has already built a road on that tile. Would it be possible for the resource to be exhausted in this case before my opponent researches Gunpowder?

Maybe I'll just have to do the same thing Rhye did, and make the strategic resources inexhaustable. But I'd prefer not to, because I think it is an important part of the game.
 
Well a bit of testing I'd done before..
1. The game won't announce that you've lost a resource unless you are connected to it
2. The individual samples of a resource each have an individual chance of dissapearing each turn (so a more abundant resource will 'shift' more often for a large map)
 
Ok, I got you the answer you want!

Resources will not disappear utill have reseached the appropriate technology and can see them on the map, even if you have a road connected to the square where the resource would be. I tested a map where oil became avalible with alphabet. I made the disappearance ratio 1 (so it would basically automatically disappear). First I tested it where I started with alphabet as a tech and naturally the oil disappeared when i finished my first turn. Then I tested the same scenario-only this time i didnt have alphabet to begin with (for times sake I made alphabet cost less so I could research it quickly). I researched it and once I did the oil was still there (even though I still had roads and about 8 turns had passed). And as in the first game, the turn after I could see the oil, it disappeared. So there you have it. Resources will not disappear utill have reseached the appropriate technology and can see them on the map, even if you have a road connected to the square where the resource would be.
 
Thank you, Corn Shucker! This is very reassuring.
 
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