Question about making unit graphics

[Blasph23]

[CIV 2 MGE]

I realize that there's a large number of different custom unit icons available, made by many different authors. My question is, what programs do you guys use to create them?

I refer to units that are completely new, not conversions from movies/other games.
Obviously it's no big deal to make star destroyer from Star Wars - there's plenty of source material, movie stills etc, anybody with rudimentary skills in image processing can pull that off.

The point is, for my scenario, I require completely new units that only so far exist in my head. I need tools to make them real.

First I tried 3DSMax. It's a bit of an overkill but I had moderate success.
Exporting the object to image is not a big problem and all the post processing is done after that.
There's a few geometric shapes available which can be put together, but the problem is color palette.
Overlaying textures on those meshes is a bit tricky and when I re-size the image to fit 64x48 unit slot (diamond shape included), it loses a lot of quality.
Of course I will always lose the quality to some degree, but what would you suggest to do in order to minimize that loss?

Perhaps I should be working on images that are already of proper size to just paste into respective slots in units.gif, instead of resizing them?
I'd love to know how the famous Dune units were made because they're some of the best looking I've ever seen in any scenario. I never played that RTS so I have no idea if the Civ2 scenario units are or aren't exported from there and only slightly adjusted to fit into the pixel aspect ratio, which is why I'd like to know more about those.

 

[Nicheal]

Hello, Blasph.

1.
I suggest to use another Game to mod... why not trying to mod Civ3 or Civ4, you already did
Units with 3DSMax... to lose such a huge Effort by killing that down, damned sad i could think.

2.
I made my Units by "Patchworking", to grab what i can, as Parts of Units like Weapons or Armors,
but instead, if you want to do total by your own, i think, "cute drawing" is better than "oversize modelling".

3.
If you say "units.gif", -the reason for me to answer-, you mean Civilization 2 MGE?!?
You try to mod with MGE?

If so, i would highly suggest, that you download Civilization 2 Test of Time from elsewhere,
(it is available in WwW, for free download), so that you can use a Units.bmp, and Sprites.

You will have much more Options in Modding with Civ2 ToT than with Civ2 MGE, MUCH MORE,
and another Choice would be totally silly... with ToT you could get satisfying Results, for sure.

4.
I think, the Unit which has to be made from Scratch, has to be made by Drawing,
and not by modelling as an oversized 3D Model, killed down to a Ruin. There is no
Possibility to tell a damned silly Machine, to cut out the most of the Pixels, to be
creative and draw some new Pixels in, the PC will always kill down, and nothing more.
And if you kill down a 3D huge Model, you will always get a damned ugly Nothing... i think.

Sweet Days in Harmony, Dude!





EDIT:

I'm talking about Civ 2 MGE specifically and I am not interested in discussions
about why should I be modding other games instead, so save it.

Okay, okay. But let me tell you a last Thing about ToT: It is the same Game, but a rich Expansion,
you would get a few Skills more, as Catfish told ya: A bit better Graphics, Sprites, you will get
the Possibility of FOUR MAP SCENARIOS, you will get the Possibility of 90 KB EVENTS.TXTS
instead of 25 kb small MGE Events.txts with less Orders, you will get by ToT nearly the same Game,
you could get, i think, a Vanilla MGE Skin for ToT, so it would look like nearly the same Game,
but you would get a damned huge Expansion of Game Skills. It is called also Civilization 2,
but it has damned more Options, and to modd that, is the best Way "up to date"... for a ten Years
old Game called Civ2, Dude. You should perhaps think about it.

That idea aside, your post still doesn't answer the main question:
How modders do that if they decide to start from the scratch?
Do they draw on paper and then scan? Or do they draw in paint or some
other such program and then properly colorize, re-size, etc?

I answered it, Dude. You see, that Catfish and some other Guys take original Model Pictures
out of elsewhere, to cut these Dudes down by super Algorithms, getting welldone small sized Units.

Another Option would be, to create by yourself Model Pictures, and as i told you,
better paint them small as possible, as to create them in a 3DSMax oversized and painfully.

Look at the "Battle of Zarklaw" Scenario in Civ2 Fantasy Scenarios, a ToT Game,
download ToT, to look at that Scenario, and visit Curt Siblings Homepage, cause i think,
he perhaps painted his new Units and Styles, and cut them down to sweet little new ones...

And think about using ToT, it has the same Structures, you dont have to learn
more about Tech Trees/making Maps/Unit Parameters/Pedia Entries, the Things you know already,
will be nearly the same, but the Things expanded in that Civ2 finest Game, will give you MUCH MORE
Options, better Details and much better Gameplay. If you want to modd Civ2, try to use ToT, Dude!



O yes, and ToT has a bit more Unit Slots... it is nearly the same Game, but offers much more Skills.
You could tell me now, but you LOVE the good old Classic... and i would tell you: But you will
modd it anyway... please think about it.

 

[Blasph23]

I'm not interested in Civ 3,4 or 5. Not a bit, which is why I posted in this section, I don't need advice on modding those games because I don't like them and don't intend to play them anytime soon if ever.

Yes, I am trying to mod MGE and it is only that game I need advice on.
As for units that I made - a whopping number of 2 - that's not much of a loss considering I spent around 2 hours on each.
Gif format is not an issue at all either, so I don't need to move to bmp.
I am not interested in ToT, period. Take that into consideration when you post
Also, I have the general modding mechanism covered, I made some mods for personal use and I have no problems with setting up tech trees/making maps/unit parameters/pedia entries and everything else contained in easily manageable rules/game/label.txt files etc.
Hence I don't need advice on modding in general, only about graphic modding of units and eventually also improvements icons and all other gifs or bmps.

I'm talking about Civ 2 MGE specifically and I am not interested in discussions about why should I be modding other games instead, so save it.

As for the drawing idea - that's a very good one, I haven't thought about that, perhaps because I never exhibited any particular talent with a pencil.

That idea aside, your post still doesn't answer the main question:
How modders do that if they decide to start from the scratch?
Do they draw on paper and then scan? Or do they draw in paint or some other such program and then properly colorize, re-size, etc?

 

[Tanelorn]

Welcome fellow civer.
I will post model painting guides for ships and planes as I go through my next models, the Knox frigate and the Super Galeb. Catfish made a guide for modeling miniatures, I made one for beginners too. Failine had made a guide for tank design in Apolyton, once.
I will provide the links here.
You can always ask for painting tips and such.
http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/jp_makingunits01.htm
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=460086

 

[Catfish]

My question is, what programs do you guys use to create them?

I use Paint Shop Pro 13. I believe Fairline, arguably Civ2's finest icon artist, also uses PSP. PSP was once referred to as the poor man's Photoshop, but it possesses more than adequate tools for making 2D unit icons. There's also the freeware editor, Gimp.

Overlaying textures on those meshes is a bit tricky and when I re-size the image to fit 64x48 unit slot (diamond shape included), it loses a lot of quality.
Of course I will always lose the quality to some degree, but what would you suggest to do in order to minimize that loss?

Work in 24-bit colour. Load the 8-bit palette after you resize to reduce quality loss. Don't use pixel resize, use one of the more advanced resizing algorithms. That's about as much as I'm going to say on working with 8-bit units. Most of the SL graphics artists switched to ToT the best part of a decade ago. Those units have better colour depth and resolution.

What I will do is repost Fairline's excellent tank drawing guide from Apolyton's Graphics Workshop thread. You can find examples of Fairline's work on the units pages of the SL wiki.

Fairline's Tank Drawing Guide 2003

OK, I'm no teacher but for what it's worth, here's a guide to drawing isometric tanks. The figures in the text refer to the T34 guide.gif below. I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in your graphics program while following this guide. Always ensure you load the civ2 palette into a units file you are working on before starting to draw - there are loads of files on the net that have an incorrect palette and this may cause problems viewing them in Civ. The file below has the correct palette and spare slots for drawing in to get you going. I'd also recommend using a pukka drawing program such as Paint Shop Pro. Don't mess about with the Windows drawing package - it's rubbish.

First off, back to (very) basics. I'm guessing not many of you have engineering drawing experience, but you will have heard of the isometric view; figure 1 shows a rectangular block outlined in the Nemo approximation of isometric view. Notice the vertical lines are drawn as straight vertical lines while horizontal lines and planes are drawn at an angle, with each section 2 pixels long. Stick with this rule when drawing a unit.

Before starting to draw a unit get as much reference material as you can. Use a Google image search and go through every page. Of particular interest are isometric 3-d models or very nearly isometric pics of model tanks. 3-view drawings are good to check detail, with photos of the actual vehicle a good source for colour and overall appearance. The zip below contains the reference pics I used for the T34-41 and T34/85 as good examples. Open up as many of the pics as you can into your drawing program so that you can view them alongside your units file. Take it from me, this is a much easier way than copying from a book.

The first step is to rough out the hull of the tank, remembering to use vertical lines and 2-by-2 pixel diagonals (fig. 2). The idea here is to get the basic dimensions right, so don't worry about detail or colour just yet. Now start to change the drawing using a pixel-by pixel approach to give more of a feel for the shape you're after (fig. 3). You can see here that the T34's glacis and hull side plates are not in a vertical plane, so adjust the drawing to suit. The engine bay is also higher than the rest of the hull. I use a dark colour to draw the lines denoting a change in plane.

Next fit the appropriate number and size of wheels (fig.4). I would usually cut and paste wheels from Nemo tanks to speed things up, but in this instance I needed to draw some from scratch. I've included a selection of Nemo's wheels for you to cut and paste. At this stage also draw in the tracks and change the hull dimensions to suit the number of wheels you have. Remember that a tank's road wheels are often larger than the drive and trail wheels. Make sure you're happy with the overall shape before moving on to the next stage - it's a lot easier to make drastic changes at this stage than later.

OK, this is the part where this thing starts to look like a tank (fig. 5). Copy the turret as closely as possible from your iso reference drawing. You have a choice of 3-views for the gun: draw it in line with the longitudinal axis of the tank as I have with the T34, draw it 'raised' as shown in the T-26 in fig 10 or move the turret to face 'left' as shown in the PzIV drawing in fig 11. In both the later two cases, the gun is drawn as a horizontal line(s). Colour fill each plane of the tank with base colours. Use light colours for the turret (lightest) and hull top with darker colours for the sides. Bear in mind that the source of light is above and slightly behind this tank, with shadows thrown onto the hull and turret sides. To get you going, use the dropper tool on the left menu bar of PSP to select colours from this picture for your own allied tank colours. The inset shows the civ palette, with the colour ranges I've used here outlined in pink. The four base colours I use for an allied tank are next to it. It's worth noting that the T34's sloped sides are a lighter colour than a vertical hull side would be.

When you're happy with the basic shape of the tank, it's time to add a little detail (fig 6). Add vision ports, periscopes, hatches, engine bays, aerials, anything to give the drawing some life. If you're unsure of how best to make these, use Nemo's or my drawings to cut and paste the appropriate part onto your tank.

Nearly there now..... the final stages are all about detailed colouring (fig. 7) Add highlights to the edges of plane surfaces, turret hatches, engine bay grils etc. This is best done by selecting the base colour with the dropper and clicking on 'foreground colour' on the right hand side tool bar in PSP, below the palette picture; this brings up the 'select colour from palette' selection box. To produce a highlight, select a colour 1 or 2 spaces lighter from the base colour, and similarly 1 or 2 spaces darker for shading to place shadows around raised parts like the hatches or turret. This is very much a matter of personal taste. Have a close look at fig. 7 to see what I've done with this T34. Also add detail to wheels and tracks at this point. View your unit in Civ to make sure you're happy with it, and adjust as appropriate.

Lastly, add a shadow around the tank (fig. 8). You may also want a tank commander (fig. 9); I've included a selection to cut and paste in fig. 12.

Figures 13, 14 and 15 show modification of an existing unit to produce a variant, in this case the late war T-34/85. The key is to get the detail right for your new variant. Don't just add a longer gun if you want a distinctive graphic; redraw the turret and make any other adjustments required for the new tank (in this case new stowage bins, fuel tanks and headlight position).

I'd love to know how the famous Dune units were made because they're some of the best looking I've ever seen in any scenario. I never played that RTS so I have no idea if the Civ2 scenario units are or aren't exported from there and only slightly adjusted to fit into the pixel aspect ratio, which is why I'd like to know more about those.

If you're referring to Reno's units, according to the author, they're originals, not rips. From his Readme file:

made with Maya 2.0 and photoshop 5.0 ( the "dune creature" was just modified from the dino set , all others units are completely original )

I believe that BeBro's SubWars units were also modelled in 3D and resized for Civ2.