lutzj
The Last Thing You See
Not if you're a Republican.
Question to athiests who say...
- Thread starter Lotus49
- Start date
Not if you're a Republican.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Andrei_V,
Oh, you're talking about early universe, I thought you were talking pre-big bang. Yeah, you're correct that physics doesn't understand the details in the first earliest moments and breaks down into nonsensical results.
I don't see how not fully understanding it though makes it so we need a prime mover or that there must have been a time before the big bang.
Oh, you're talking about early universe, I thought you were talking pre-big bang. Yeah, you're correct that physics doesn't understand the details in the first earliest moments and breaks down into nonsensical results.
I don't see how not fully understanding it though makes it so we need a prime mover or that there must have been a time before the big bang.
I guess another question would be; why are athiests typically more actively hostile & defensive regarding religious faith, instead of merely passively care free?
Also Perfection, how is this phrase: "3rd (full-time) celestial object from Sol on an independent orbital path around the Sun".
See, I think that should cover it. I actually said the same thing before, only using more fancy wording which in your speed reading you perhaps glossed over.
Also Perfection, how is this phrase: "3rd (full-time) celestial object from Sol on an independent orbital path around the Sun".
See, I think that should cover it. I actually said the same thing before, only using more fancy wording which in your speed reading you perhaps glossed over.
How can we talk about 'pre-big bang' if we cannot even talk about 'shortly after big-bang' in scientific terms?
Surely, we can assume whatever we want, a Singularity (as beginning of space-time), a Multiverse, a hyper software simulation running in a hyper computer, etc. However all these things have no scientific basis, as well as 'time has a beginning' thing. We just don't know.
Perfection
The Great Head.
you know people can believe what they want to. but when they organize together into groups, it becomes a problem. if you look at the history of religion, you can see that it has ******** scientific progress, and caused a tremendous amount of suffering. the problem with religion is that it is an incredibly effective way of controlling people. the whole idea of faith is dangerous. it is taught not to question, not to think critically, and not to blindly believe what their church tells them to.
yes, yes atheists have done bad things, but they have done good things as well. that's the point. man can be good without religion, but man can do incredible evil with religion, in the name of religion. all because religion tells them not to question. mindless obedience is a trait that is favored.
this is how a religious group, such as the christian right wing, can effectively push their gay hating, environment destroying, anti evolution education on the country. this is how the middle east barbarians can gleefully decapitate people live, and get their followers to fly planes into buildings.
the dogmatic nature of religion is dangerous to the progress of society, so that is why it is a serious issue for many people.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Well we can talk about the early universe scintifically, we just don't have answers. Pre-big bang we really don't have any metric to discuss it whatsoever, some people put all sorts of mystical/metaphysical bizzare crap before it when there simply is no need or reason to.How can we talk about 'pre-big bang' if we cannot even talk about 'shortly after big-bang' in scientific terms?
Well, I'm going with the null assumption (nothing was before the big bang).
I think that there's just a vocal minority.
Are they? I suspect you mean why are they "more actively hostile & defensive" _on an Internet forum that is open to the discussion of the existence of God_?
I don't see that atheists here are more hostile than theists, but whatever, outside of forums like these, it's a very different matter. Do you see even western Governments enforcing laws that ban criticism of atheism? Do you see atheists rioting or calling for the death penalty of anyone who criticises their belief or lack of belief?
It's a common trick I see time and time again - equating taking an interest on debate forums to people being hostile or militant in the real world. I mean, this thread is _specifically_ about atheism, so you can't blame us for taking part!
Even so you'd have to admit that such a statement is meaningless. If there was no time before big bang, what's the meaning of the word 'before'?
Likewise, "the cause of big bang" appears to be meaningless in the absence of time.
DJ Bonebraker
a.k.a Laura
God fits the bill for the Grand Unified Theory for me.
Funny you should mention that... As I said, this spirit sense of mine doesn't just pick up on the Holy Sprit, but other spiritual stuff as well. I've been able to tell homosexuals and transexuals (even the cleverly plastic surguried ones) with about 100% accuracy as well (they had this one segment on some talk show where you had to guess out of a group of twelve women who were the real women and which were men who'd undergone SRS, and I called every single one).
Ah, then I do know quite a few things you don't, therefore you aren't smarter (or at least much smarter) than I am. Just because I lack some of your logic/philosopy training (which is required for making a perfect argument) doesn't mean I'm dumber than you, due to the fact that I know, among other things, how to make Plastic explosives and detonators out of common houshold chemicals, as well as infiltration and counter-terrorism tactics, which I sincerely doubt you know. Conclusion: stop being a stuck-up, arrogant jerk.
I have no problem with Atheists in general, only arrogant ones who insult my intelligence.... Other than that, I don't have any specific thing against you (BTW, are you EVER going to update Mount CFC?)
Anyways, I admit my shortcomings at debate... My area of expertise lies mostly in 3 areas: 1) being a "jack of all trades" 2) building things and 3) destroying things (as often as not in a "flamboyant" manner).
Therefore, I'm going to withdraw from debating stuff until I've gotten some better philosophical, apologetics and debate training. My biggest problem is that I'm not that great at putting into words what I mean to say (which is why I do pretty good at explaining electronics to people.... I can draw a schematic/picture which clarifies my in(s)ane ramblings), and explains why I'm more of a mad scientist than your garden variety (the only thing I lack to be a card-carrying mad scientist is a good Jacob's Ladder sitting somewhere on my workbench/lab, but I'm planning on remedeying that as soon as I can get down to the local Junk Yard).
DJ Bonebraker
a.k.a Laura
Yes, what do you think happened to beleivers in Russia and other Iron Curtain countries before the collapse of communism? Hell, what do you think happens to anyone who's openly religious in China nowadays?!? (Mostly its the Christians who are being jailed, beaten or killed, but other religious sects, particularly Lamaic Buddhism, have also fallen victim to the government's atheistic fundamentalism).
In my experience, there are about equal numbers of total jerk-wads on both sides of the issue (like for instance, every time I hear Jerry Falwell on the radio, I just have this overriding urge to pimp-slap him repeatedly, for what good it will do).
Ask Him who's closer, Smolin or Susskind!
Perfection
The Great Head.
That quite clearly doesn't follow, a ****** who happens to love cricket is going to know a lot more about it then me. Knowledge =/= intellegence.
I've had no training whatsoever.
Nah, I'm having too much fun.
I'll updates tommorow or saturday, thanks for the reminder.
I'm good at that and debate.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Dude, you do know he's dead now?
It's completely unfalsifiable, and doesn't explain anything - it may be grand and unified, but not a theory.
That's not what I said - obviously religious people have been persecuted, and that is wrong. Sometimes persecution is done by atheists.
But I'm not sure that's what Lotus49 meant - or if he did, pointing out the activities of corrupt regimes is hardly a fair example of "typical" atheists! On top of that, most atheists here I imagine do not live in such a country.
The laws protecting criticism against religions exist even in western countries such as the UK; meanwhile you have individuals who resort to rioting if their religion is offended, or think they are being persecuted because schools can't force kids to pray, or they can't find a greeting card with a reference to Christ.
Of course, I realise that not all theists support this - but I fail to see how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that athiests are _more_ hostile and defensive! The only thing most atheists get defensive about is the aforementioned religious hostility that exists in these countries.
again, non believers do bad things. but they also do good things. in other words, people can be good without religion. however, otherwise normal people will do incredibly evil and wicked things in the name of religion. do we really need another reason to cause problems in this world?
i say that earthquakes are caused plate tectonics. the theist says its god. thats nice. either way, a perfectly non supernatural explanation exists for quakes. travel back in time a few hundred years, and people ascribed it to god and were satisfied with the explanation. luckily science does not just say "god did it" and leave it at that, they look for answers. there are still questions we dont know the answer to, but answering "god did it" is asinine. there are many questions we DO know the answer to know, which is why we don't teach "god did it" as the answer anymore.
bottom line, you can define god as a series of laws that govern the universe, but this is not the personal, loving god that christians believe in. nope, this is the "god" that einstein and other scientists believe in, but it is not the bible god.
i say that earthquakes are caused plate tectonics. the theist says its god. thats nice. either way, a perfectly non supernatural explanation exists for quakes. travel back in time a few hundred years, and people ascribed it to god and were satisfied with the explanation. luckily science does not just say "god did it" and leave it at that, they look for answers. there are still questions we dont know the answer to, but answering "god did it" is asinine. there are many questions we DO know the answer to know, which is why we don't teach "god did it" as the answer anymore.
bottom line, you can define god as a series of laws that govern the universe, but this is not the personal, loving god that christians believe in. nope, this is the "god" that einstein and other scientists believe in, but it is not the bible god.
So, God is a natural law, then?
I guess I too can believe in this kind of God, only I would not call it God.
I was baptized in early 1970-s. My mom brought me and my sister to the church, the priest casted some spells called prayers, and washed our hairs in a scary looking green colored water, then gifted us those small aluminum crucifixes.
Neither me nor my parents were religious, it was like a cultural tradition. So did most people of our village. There were a few believers, mostly old ladies born before historical materialism. Some of them would go to the church to get some Holy Water. It was believed to improve growth of tomatoes and cucumbers.
Nothing happened. I guess it could have if we were members of the Communist Party, but we were not.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Well that's what makes it so cool. It's a logically coherant and very simple way of avoiding these pesky cause/beginning problems! If time starts at the big bang, then there's no need to answer what came before the big bang because there simply was no "before the big bang", likewise since there's no "before the big bang" there's no "cause of the big bang"!
The only objection people seem to have is, "Well, that's so weird it can't be true", and I'm all like, "that's the universe, baby, it's weird"
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