Questions about drafting

[JBossch]

JBossch, though I haven't tested it, I have a sneaky feeling that drafting rifles and upgrading them could be more efficient than drafting infantry. Drafting infantry is a poorer conversion than drafting macemen if you focus purely on the hammer from food cost (that is a possibly biased simplification, I admit).

Draft, upgrade, whatever you have to do to get an army out of thin air ASAP. Units cost maintenance and building them only to have them sit around for a thousand years is so costly. I draft/upgrade whatever I have to in order to get that army to go wail on my neighbor. I will worry about efficiency when I own his land.

JB: Nat is only a good civic if you are massing EP, either via slider cottages or spy specs. Drafting is extremely good, but it just doesn't give you enough to use the civic long term without building your empire around it. If I want to convert in infantry, it is FAR more efficient to just build/take the Kremlin and whip the buggers out. In some scenarios, getting communism first with the free GSp, the monopoly trade techs, and first crack at the Kremlin can get you to AL faster and you SP/Kremlin whips can let you whip out more infantry sooner.

No, nationalism is only good if you are drafting the beejesus out of your civilization. Who said anything about nationalism long-term? The low maintenance and happiness from barracks and espionage bonus were all added to compensate for the fact that it generally blows for peacetime. The whole espionage thing sounds like a niche strategy. Why can't you whip and draft at the same time? Build the Kremlin if you like, it still doesn't compare to having +480 turns of "hell no we won't go" unhappiness in your GT city and the ensuing pile of units to kill your neighbor with.

 

[jmas]

Draft, upgrade, whatever you have to do to get an army out of thin air ASAP. Units cost maintenance and building them only to have them sit around for a thousand years is so costly. I draft/upgrade whatever I have to in order to get that army to go wail on my neighbor. I will worry about efficiency when I own his land.


No, nationalism is only good if you are drafting the beejesus out of your civilization. Who said anything about nationalism long-term? The low maintenance and happiness from barracks and espionage bonus were all added to compensate for the fact that it generally blows for peacetime. The whole espionage thing sounds like a niche strategy. Why can't you whip and draft at the same time? Build the Kremlin if you like, it still doesn't compare to having +480 turns of "hell no we won't go" unhappiness in your GT city and the ensuing pile of units to kill your neighbor with.

Good points, however I think you meant "whale" on your neighbor, not "wail." My representation of "wailing" on your neighbor in smilies:

 

[Iranon]

In drafting Rifles and upgrading, you pay 110 for one population unit.

Steep but not totally unreasonable... if the marginal citizen was a REP scientist in a size 10-ish city, we'll catch up with the 1-pop draft in 10 turns during which we get 60 beakers + multipliers and GPP.
If we whip the marginal citizen instead, we get 30(45) hammers + multipliers.

In either case, the we need some serious multipliers before small draft + upgrades look appealing; unlikely in drafting cities and rarely worth delaying Assembly Line deliberately.

 

[mirthadir]

I disagree. For a large Representation run Specialist Economy, the Nationalism civic is the cheapest civic you can run, the extra happiness is just gravy.

So? The potential gains of a B cap handily pay for the differences in upkeep and the diplomatic potential of having a friendly B lover up to Friendly for tech trading or DP utterly blow such trivial concerns out of the water.

No, nationalism is only good if you are drafting the beejesus out of your civilization. Who said anything about nationalism long-term? The low maintenance and happiness from barracks and espionage bonus were all added to compensate for the fact that it generally blows for peacetime. The whole espionage thing sounds like a niche strategy. Why can't you whip and draft at the same time? Build the Kremlin if you like, it still doesn't compare to having +480 turns of "hell no we won't go" unhappiness in your GT city and the ensuing pile of units to kill your neighbor with.

Well for starters each flip into and out of Nat costs you something, either in suboptimal GA timing or a diplo hit or just the lost effeciency of B/FS for the duration. Frankly, I find I can handily get a crapload more units off a Kremlin/US/FS strat (and with the mids far sooner). In the mid term you simply get more production out of better tech and better multipliers (both military and economic). Long term Nat is running Nat for muskets -> infantry; and you need to fully leverage Nat otherwise you should swap to anything better and just whip out the units.

As far as whipping and drafting, um you have a hard 1 per turn cap. Whenever I have the Globe for production it regrows 2 pop in 2 turns. I can either whip the buggers xor draft them, not both. If I let the city grow and then whip; I've just utterly nerfed the number of units I can get out of it over the course of the game. PS/SP/Kremlin whipping utterly destroys the draft for efficiency and if you want serious conversion of to . At the end of the day you can work a limited amount of and that is best converted to by whip, not draft. Very rarely will the additional 3 units/turn be a sufficient time issue to justify running nat of its own right.

EE is the strongest economy in the game; you can generate more inputs off a single set of multipliers, have the second earliest set of full multipliers, and can get idiotic discounts off religion, distance, total EP saved. Granted the strongest late game EE is cottage based and goes FS, but Nat is good for getting a strong midterm production/EP advantage. There just isn't enough production to be had with nat to justify it for anything but the midterm without leveraging its other bonuses.

 

[Kesshi]

So? The potential gains of a B cap handily pay for the differences in upkeep and the diplomatic potential of having a friendly B lover up to Friendly for tech trading or DP utterly blow such trivial concerns out of the water.

I said large and I meant large. In a small-to-medium empire, a Bureaucracy cap will be superior. In a large empire, Nationhood is superior. Remember that the high civic upkeep increases with empire size, where as Nationhood remains as a flat zero in civic upkeep. The extra happy faces for a cheap building, free Espionage, and the option to draft at any time are just gravy.

 

[Iranon]

A high-upkeep civic costs roughly 0.6 per city and 0.16 per population. Assuming average size of 15, that's 3 per city + inflation.
Nationhood will eventually be better for our budget, maybe somewhere around the 30 city mark... but other considerations can make it attractive with smaller empires.

 

[mirthadir]

I said large and I meant large. In a small-to-medium empire, a Bureaucracy cap will be superior. In a large empire, Nationhood is superior. Remember that the high civic upkeep increases with empire size, where as Nationhood remains as a flat zero in civic upkeep. The extra happy faces for a cheap building, free Espionage, and the option to draft at any time are just gravy.

The size of the empire required to make that be a determining factor is so large you have already won in most cases. In any event at that stage of the game vassal is likely your strongest option.

Again the strongest issue here is not economy, it's diplomacy. Paying an extra 60 per turn is peanuts if it nets me the ability to get a friendly trading partner and utterly meaningless if I can snag a DP to keep me safe till launch.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

slightly OT...

@Mirthadir: Does B lovers (or AIs with a medieval favorite civic) keeps it once they hit more advanced civic? I seem to remember that Izzy switchs off theocraty usually

edit: tx for the replies guys

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You both have to be in a civic for favorite civic bonuses.

But you can often accrue enough + with a friendly AI to keep them there.

 

[mirthadir]

AIs keep B for a long time, normally swapping over into FS only once they get large and need culture. You can still spy them into B and they have to revolt out. B/FS, HR, caste, and OR/Theo/FR are the best diplomatic civics. They come early, they are strong in their own right, and they come at a point in time when the AI can't spam you for all that many demands to swap.

Eventually the AI adopts whichever civic it thinks is strongest for it, but B lasts normally until FS and often into the industrial era.

 

[JBossch]

As far as whipping and drafting, um you have a hard 1 per turn cap. Whenever I have the Globe for production it regrows 2 pop in 2 turns. I can either whip the buggers xor draft them, not both. If I let the city grow and then whip; I've just utterly nerfed the number of units I can get out of it over the course of the game.

I don't whip and draft in the GT city, thats a waste. I was pointing out that both civics can be used simultaneously, on an empire-wide basis. For example, drafting muskets while whipping cannons after bulbing steel. Many mid-size cities can whip and draft on the same turn.

PS/SP/Kremlin whipping utterly destroys the draft for efficiency and if you want serious conversion of to . At the end of the day you can work a limited amount of and that is best converted to by whip, not draft. Very rarely will the additional 3 units/turn be a sufficient time issue to justify running nat of its own right.

Your strat requires Democracy, Communism and the construction of a wonder. By the time you have these I have already won my draft war and will never use Nationalism again.

EE is the strongest economy in the game; you can generate more inputs off a single set of multipliers, have the second earliest set of full multipliers, and can get idiotic discounts off religion, distance, total EP saved. Granted the strongest late game EE is cottage based and goes FS, but Nat is good for getting a strong midterm production/EP advantage. There just isn't enough production to be had with nat to justify it for anything but the midterm without leveraging its other bonuses.

Yeah EE is great except how do you ever get any techs the AI doesn't already have?

 

[mirthadir]

I don't whip and draft in the GT city, thats a waste. I was pointing out that both civics can be used simultaneously, on an empire-wide basis. For example, drafting muskets while whipping cannons after bulbing steel. Many mid-size cities can whip and draft on the same turn.



Your strat requires Democracy, Communism and the construction of a wonder. By the time you have these I have already won my draft war and will never use Nationalism again.



Yeah EE is great except how do you ever get any techs the AI doesn't already have?

Umm let's try this again shall we? We want to convert to / at the end of the day. Drafting infantry is rather inefficient at this. Kremlin whipping, is not. For the same food it takes to draft infantry you can just whip them. ANYWHERE you can draft an infantry you can whip an infantry for less.

Now please note, when I talk about Kremlin whipping I'm refering to your points about infantry alone. Drafting rifles or muskets is indeed a strong short term boost, but the efficiency of drafting THERE is insanely better than with infantry.

As far as requirements. You talked about drafting infantry, that requires AL and Rifling both of which have plenty of trades you can normally get with Communism. Democracy is completely unneeded, either the Mids or Fascism gives you PS, and the wonder need not even be built by you.

Exactly which techs post lib do you need to get first? With enough EP you can burn his wonder progress, burn his strategic resources (minus offshore oil and corps resources), and generally prevent the AI from leveraging a tech advantage. With enough EP you can easily maintain tech parity and start swapping cities over to production (Kremlin whip or mass WS) and just outbuild the bugger.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I don't whip and draft in the GT city, thats a waste.

How's it a waste?

The GT pretty much removes the only drawback to drafting from a city - the severe unhappiness.

A hypothetical example: Let's suppose a city has already built the GT and has a granary and barracks. In that time it may have used some mines but that's ok.
Now set that city to only use high food yield tiles. Planning the location of this city means you have it work as few as 5 or 6 tiles during draft mode while nearby cities use the other tiles.

Let's suppose the city can access two 5 resources, one 4 resource and two grass farms. That city can draft four times in every five turns on Normal speed. A rifleman costs 110 on normal. Over five turns you collect 15 times 5 surplus food and convert it to 440 worth of production. If we are conservative and estimate a drafted rifleman to be worth 75% of a non-drafted rifleman, then that's 330 from 75. You effectively collect 13.2 from each of the 5 tiles worked by the GT city. A railroaded iron mine on flat grass produces 5 at no food loss and through 100% modifiers with forge, factory and power produces effective 10.

It seems to me like not using the GT city for drafting and/or whipping is the waste. Of course, this all assumes we are running Nationhood in the first place. I should really say that not drafting/whipping from the GT city while running Nationhood/Slavery is the waste.

 

[Yamps]

^ He said he won't draft and slave at the same time in the GT city. It's beneficial to draft rifles and slave at the same time in other cities because the unhappiness counters run simultaneously. (UncleJJ mentioned it in some thread and I've done some calculations of my own)

Regarding the infantry draft vs Kremlin whip, providing some (explained) numbers to avoid unnecessary arguments would be beneficial. It's interesting how every thread on such subjects turns into fierce discussions...


From memory (so please forgive me if I happen to make a mistake ), here are some calculations for normal speed:

140 hammers for infantry from 2 pop drafting is 70 hammers per pop. Kremlin gives 45 base hammers per pop. 70/45 is 1.55 so the hammer multiplier in the city has to be higher than that for Kremlin whipping to be better. And it will: Forge (+25%), Factory (+25%), Power (+25%), Police state (+25% for military), State Property (+10%) for a total of 2.1 and 94.5 hammers vs 70.

 

[PieceOfMind]

^ He said he won't draft and slave at the same time in the GT city. It's beneficial to draft rifles and slave at the same time in other cities because the unhappiness counters run simultaneously. (UncleJJ mentioned it in some thread and I've done some calculations of my own)

Regarding the infantry draft vs Kremlin whip, providing some (explained) numbers to avoid unnecessary arguments would be beneficial. It's interesting how every thread on such subjects turns into fierce discussions...


From memory (so please forgive me if I happen to make a mistake ), here are some calculations for normal speed:

140 hammers for infantry from 2 pop drafting is 70 hammers per pop. Kremlin gives 45 base hammers per pop. 70/45 is 1.55 so the hammer multiplier in the city has to be higher than that for Kremlin whipping to be better. And it will: Forge (+25%), Factory (+25%), Power (+25%), Police state (+25% for military), State Property (+10%) for a total of 2.1 and 94.5 hammers vs 70.

Oh, lol.

Sorry JB I didn't correctly read the context of your comment. I kinda treated the 'and' like an 'or' :facepalm:.

And Yamps, thanks for the numbers - it shows the infantry is indeed better whipped than rushed in many circumstances. Earlier on when far fewer hammer multipliers are available and when the units aren't drafted at more than 1 pop, obviously the comparison favours drafting far more.

 

[Grey Fox]

Problem with whipping is you have to wait at least one turn before doing it or you'll get double cost items. And then it takes another turn to get it. Drafting is immediate.

 

[JBossch]

Problem with whipping is you have to wait at least one turn before doing it or you'll get double cost items. And then it takes another turn to get it. Drafting is immediate.

Exactly! I can draft in the GT city every turn, and for a short time I will be drafting 3 units per turn, plus whatever I am whipping.

Since the conversation seems to be about infantry at this point (mirthadir concedes the efficacy of drafting anything less) then lets stick with them. If I am going for an infantry war I am beelining AL. There is no way I am sidetracking for Communism and building the Kremlin even if I can trade for Comm. Its AL, then probably shut down tech for gold to upgrade units. In ten turns I have 40+ infantry. It may be more costly than waiting for Kremlin and the discount on whipping or rush buying but I have the units sooner and the target's land sooner. On Deity, the target will catch up in tech if you wait any longer.

 

[UncleJJ]

^ He said he won't draft and slave at the same time in the GT city. It's beneficial to draft rifles and slave at the same time in other cities because the unhappiness counters run simultaneously. (UncleJJ mentioned it in some thread and I've done some calculations of my own)

Regarding the infantry draft vs Kremlin whip, providing some (explained) numbers to avoid unnecessary arguments would be beneficial. It's interesting how every thread on such subjects turns into fierce discussions...


From memory (so please forgive me if I happen to make a mistake ), here are some calculations for normal speed:

140 hammers for infantry from 2 pop drafting is 70 hammers per pop. Kremlin gives 45 base hammers per pop. 70/45 is 1.55 so the hammer multiplier in the city has to be higher than that for Kremlin whipping to be better. And it will: Forge (+25%), Factory (+25%), Power (+25%), Police state (+25% for military), State Property (+10%) for a total of 2.1 and 94.5 hammers vs 70.

This is all correct as far as I can see , except the bonus for power is 50% instead of the 25% you listed.

There seem to be some very strange opinions being expressed here from players I thought knew a lot better Under the right circumstances Nationhood can be the most powerful civic in the middle and late game and entirely decisive. But to make full use of it and make that true you do need to prepare for that phase by building the right type of cities and run supporting civics such as Slavery and Theocracy (and PS in the late game).

My rule of thumb is that Nationhood is a civic that is well suited to a large empire based on high food production and when aiming for a Domination style path to victory. If those don't apply it won't be such a powerful civic, for instance it doesn't do as well when you have a lot of cottages or when you have a small empire or when you aim for Space or Culture both of which rely on Free Speech. If you rely on espionage to recover at least partly from falling behind technologically then again it can help.

People suggesting that Bureaucracy is in any way a substitute in the middle to late game are playing very differently from how I do (and this is the problem with this sort of discussion, people don't think carefully enough about the conditions). I did some calculations and tests of Nationhood versus Bureaucracy (using BTS 3.13) about a year ago and I found that in most games as soon as the empire reached 12 cities Nationhood clearly beat Bureacracy in terms of overall production of "commerce" and "hammers". By "commerce" I mean the comparison of the Bureacracy +50% commerce minus the cost of the civic versus the slight gain in EPs due to Nationhoods +25% bonus. By "hammers" I mean the relatively weak +50% additive hammer bonus in the capital versus the 330 hammers worth of rifles Nationhood can give. In fact to beat the hammers produced I assumed no Globe Theatre and that the average was between 1 and 2 drafts per turn (since there were only 12 cities). Now some people would look at my empire and say that the capital was weak and that the outlying cities were disproportionately strong ... since I put effort into getting basic infrastructure in place so ... I could whip and draft in them. That makes it a self fulfilling prophecy I suppose . Other people would manage their capital and outlying citiesin a different way and come to a different conclusion.

I can't imagine what Iranion means when he says that the Bureacracy / Nationhood break even point is 30 cities That is so far outside my experience he must be talking about a radically different situation. I suppose he could just mean the commerce bonus compared to the upkeep of Bureaucracy break even at that point? But why is that of interest and not the EP bonus when applied to passive buildings and any spies even if the EP slider is not used? Maybe he was not using espionage at all in the game. Maybe he was comparing the civics with an Organised leader. And we've not begun to address the +2 happiness bonus ...

What is the +2 happiness worth? In big cities left untouched by the draft that happiness is worth 2 temples or about 160 hammers. In cities where you are drafting it effectively lets you draft once for free. If you want to have more drafts outstanding then you need to have some happiness headroom. If your city size is about 6 and the happiness is 13 (without Nationhood) then you can draft 3 times in a short period and then maintain a steady 1 draft per 10 turns afterwards. That is a great way to raise a large force of muskets or rifles to begin the attack. As WW begins to bite just ease back on the drafting and keep the city small. This is where whipping comes to the rescue if you mistimed the drafting and were a little too eager you can maintain the cities working the best tiles and run enough specialists to soak up spare food. That is one reason why I like to run the two civics together if possible they are highly complimentary.

I seriously doubt that Kremlin whipping is competetive with drafting even for infantry. To make the comparison, as Yamps has done for them above, people have to install factories and power in all their cities. Who does that when going for a Domination victory? certainly not me I rely on whipping and drafting. If the city is too small it takes too long to pay back the investment of 450 hammers (effectively 10-Kremlin-pop) which could be used now as units. If the city is big then there is a significant health problem that needs a lot of health infrastructure to solve, otherwise the 50% Kremlin bonus is largely eroded in the 50% Unhealth malus that throws food away. I suppose a few cities might fall into the health gap between being too small and too big. Or more likely their owner purposely installed a lot of health buildings earlier in the game before factories were available, that's a valid strategy if you want factories but it is sort of cheating the comparison since those hammers could have gone on something else.

Besides that, who would whip an infantry? There is always something much better to whip or build in my empire at that time, like; artillery, machine guns, paratroopers, destroyers, fighters. I certainly use infantry as the stack fillers and garrisons when drafted ones are added to a few upgrades, but I don't build them or whip them when I can draft them. I find that after Biology my specialist whipping-drafting cities have so much food that I can't turn it into units using whipping alone even if it was more "efficient" in some theoretical sense. The units just don't cost enough hammers and the Kremlin makes this worse by reducing the cost . In my empires the result of getting the Kremlin is not more units but an increase in specialist turns (more beakers and EPs) that are used to dump the spare food. I do draft infantry in that situation after Assembly Line as another method to turn food to hammers on a sustainable basis, with an average of 1 draft and 1 whip per 10 turns. If anything the Kremlin's increased efficiency makes drafting more neccessary when going for a quick and overwhelming win, they are not competing methods but complimentary ones.

 

[mirthadir]

Problem with whipping is you have to wait at least one turn before doing it or you'll get double cost items. And then it takes another turn to get it. Drafting is immediate.

Eh? This is a two pop action regardless, draft and you take at minumum 2 turns to regrow. Either way you can at most get 1 infantry out every other turn from a city on average, regardless of using the draft or the whip. Of course for anything but the GT you are going to be cycling regardless and the overflow is quite handy (I haven't checked to see in the most recent patch how much PS abuse is worth here).

Exactly! I can draft in the GT city every turn, and for a short time I will be drafting 3 units per turn, plus whatever I am whipping.

Since the conversation seems to be about infantry at this point (mirthadir concedes the efficacy of drafting anything less) then lets stick with them. If I am going for an infantry war I am beelining AL. There is no way I am sidetracking for Communism and building the Kremlin even if I can trade for Comm. Its AL, then probably shut down tech for gold to upgrade units. In ten turns I have 40+ infantry. It may be more costly than waiting for Kremlin and the discount on whipping or rush buying but I have the units sooner and the target's land sooner. On Deity, the target will catch up in tech if you wait any longer.

Actually Kremlin whipping is more efficient than drafting rifles with full multipliers. The problem is the time question. If I can build or more commonly take the Kremlin after starting the rifle war, I will often slave out rifles instead of drafting them.

As far as tech rate, please. The AI beelines the AL path, it ignores communism once the GSp is gone. You can get far more trade out of taking communism, the unfavored path, and trading into AL, the favored path, than vice versa. If you are upgrading and fearing AI catchup, why on earth are you hitting AL instead of going for Artillery? It is far more cost effective to upgrade your cannons, comes quicker, and is less dangerous should the AI gain parity (the AI sucks much worse with siege than CG units). Arty + rifles is by far the better short term bet, ESPECIALLY if you are going for mass draft.

You cannot draft infantry once per turn per city. You can only regrow one pop per turn so, at best, you can draft every other turn on average.

UJJ: Iranon and I were simply discussing the break even point for the commerce alone. Nat is good for heavy production (of limited troop types), EP generation, and small bit of other goodies. The actual saved by running a no cost civic is normally entirely offset by the produced or saved with ANY competing civic. If you aren't running high EP (specs or slider), if you aren't mass producing rifles (muskets or to a lesser extent infantry), if you aren't in a really tight spot for happiness ... then almost always something else is better. If you don't build to utilize the many bonuses of Nat, then almost anything else is better. E.g. Rax is worthless if you've have a high enough happy cap (E.g. Running Eman for Lincoln and spamming religion for FR, cash, and AP uses, perhaps with an AI assist or two).

Drafting alone does not make Nat competitive, making an empire built around ALL the bonuses does.

For Kremlin victory to be competive we need multipliers of +55%. That would be PS + SP + Forge; the later doing double duty with +3 but I'm sure you never run PS/SP when going for dom . For the same amount of pop you get the same amount of units, some overflow, more XP, and massive amounts of flexibility. Taking 3GD makes it insanely cheap to whip in a factory and utterly blow the draft out of the water (+75% makes 34 per pop whipped); I recall you play only cotinents on immort- if so, then this is one of those things that you wouldn't see 3GD can power ALL your pangea/fractal cities for free (thanks to the AI's s) and make factories perhaps the most cost efficient improvement in the game.

If you are in a terminal position, drafting infantry over Kremlin whipping is highly illogical. If you are in the final push then gun the culture slider and ignore whip anger slave until you hit the highest regrowth rate and just hover there. Jail + PS + MR is pretty much a given if you are at a terminal position but actually give a rat's ass about production. The only time drafting has any merit over a Kremlin whip for infantry is when:
1. You can't get the multipliers (for some reason PS isn't an option, you aren't running SP, etc.).
2. You actually need the city to recover so having two sets of anger run concurrently is important.
3. You have banked huge amounts of , having trashed your draft efficiency in the process and need to do both at once.

Frankly, though. I don't get this. You guys are talking about very time sensitive push ... with infantry. Of the three military options for getting a leg up on the AI (AL, Artillery, and Flight) AL is the redhaired bastard child. It takes longer than the quick option (1800 fewer :beakers: for Arty, assuming for some reason that you actually have to research physics at equitable price), but doesn't offer the insane "easy mode" of Flight (via oil denial), and is the single quickest thing the AI can counter by getting AL and then auto-promoting. Arty requires the AI to get to industrialism to truly counter and flight at least gives you a large number of turns before the AI masses its own planes and comes remotely close to being more than a speed bump. MG/Rifles + planes or MG/Rifles + arty/airships are better quick term shots than MG/Infantry. AL is useful because it gives a good military tech ... and plenty of other useful things; but if you don't care about those things (no factories to build, etc.) then why bother taking the long path? Just flip get to Arty, draft more rifles, build plenty of Arty (whip or normal) and crush.

 

[Yamps]

This is all correct as far as I can see , except the bonus for power is 50% instead of the 25% you listed.

Whoops... So, it's 2.35 with all modifiers for 45*2.35 = 105.75 per pop.

Of course for anything but the GT you are going to be cycling regardless and the overflow is quite handy (I haven't checked to see in the most recent patch how much PS abuse is worth here).

You're talking about gold overflow? That got broken completely in 3.19, but it's corrected in UP. UP did nerf it considerably, keeping only bonuses that would apply to wealth building for gold overflow. (iirc)

Actually Kremlin whipping is more efficient than drafting rifles with full multipliers. The problem is the time question. If I can build or more commonly take the Kremlin after starting the rifle war, I will often slave out rifles instead of drafting them.

Rifles are 110 hammers, the efficiency is in less anger then.

EDIT: but hang on, you can't have full modifiers and draft rifles, AL obsoletes them. You can't even have PS unless you have the mids so it's just Forge and SP for 1.35 and 60.75 hammers per pop. With mids and PS, it's 1.6 for 72 hammers. Well, here the gains from less pop anger do look viable.