Questions about improvements in prod. city

You must be one of those overlapping fat cross people. I've never been able to bring myself to place cities that way, the only exception being when the overlap is desert, ocean, mountain, ice, or tundra. I'd rather live with a lower score than have my cities placed in such an aesthetically unpleasing manner. An abstract objextion, I realize, but not unvalid. Anyway, thanks for the analysis; I could use more info on whipping. If I end up in the late game, I always have plenty of cities well into the 20's with full tile usage.

:lol: Yes I am one of those people that are more concerned with production efficiency than aesthetics. I often build several early cities with overlapping fat crosses so they can help my capital and big commerce cities work up their cottages. Sometimes I go back and fill in the gaps between big cities with smaller cities that I use to whip out missionaries or catapults and then use them as drafting engines. A few grassland and plains farms is all a drafting city needs.

I like to maximise the usage of tiles under my control including second rate tiles like plains and coastal sea that most players ignore. That allows me to extract all the commerce and hammers earlier than otherwise while city size is limited by happiness and health. For instance where you might build 4 perfect cities I might build 8 cities, 4 good cities that use basically the same high quality resources as yours and 4 second rate helper cities that get second call on any resources and work the left over tiles. While happiness or health is a limitation the second rate cities thrive and help my empire develop quickly by whipping out troops while the good cities concentrate more on building their infrastructure and producing commerce and GPPs. As the game progresses and technologies, trading and my conquests raise the happiness and health the good cities grow at the expense of the helper cities.

It is not a pretty development strategy but it sure is a powerful way to start a game where you are going for domination.
 
I think that food is really the best resource. of course, for example, u can turn it to production with slavery, or you can turn in into production with specialists. If you really want a great production city...you dont use hammers...you use a bunch of food and a bunch of engineer specialists, which you get from ironworks for example. A city with corn and fish will outproduce a city with 5 mines by a long shot, if you really are taking time with i and working to customise it. Stuff like mines is useful for small city. A big customized well developed never gets enough food, whether its a production city or whatever. This is my thinking on it.
 
I think that food is really the best resource. of course, for example, u can turn it to production with slavery, or you can turn in into production with specialists. If you really want a great production city...you dont use hammers...you use a bunch of food and a bunch of engineer specialists, which you get from ironworks for example. A city with corn and fish will outproduce a city with 5 mines by a long shot, if you really are taking time with i and working to customise it. Stuff like mines is useful for small city. A big customized well developed never gets enough food, whether its a production city or whatever. This is my thinking on it.

Why would you use engineers specialists (-2food +2hammers) rather than mines (-1 food +3 hammers). I understand the benefit of GPP but they have dramatically decreased by the time of ironworks which you have in only one city only and is quite late so mines are already -1F +4H. Plus you can only get about four and in my present game my navy producing unit is working all its mines and has 3 engineers.

I woulld rather have a city with 2 food resources AND Hills
 
UncleJJ I don't really understand what you are arguing here. The number of pop converted to hammers does affect the conversion ratio but larger whips will increase the efficiency rather than decrease it as you seem to be saying.[/QUOTE said:
Larger whips improve the unhappiness ratio (which is minimal IMO as lost pop negates modifier, its the micromanagement which is a sod).

Large whips reduce your pop so you are not working tiles while your pop grows. You can grow a city to size ten whip two/three for production BUT then you are not using two tiles. At the same happiness cap a production city can quickly grow to size ten and work mines for the same ratio of food-production (until Biology). Effectively you are spending a lot of time micromanaging to achieve the same results.

But the advantage of the super whipping city is when you don't have the spare mines (as you explained), this is a pretty limited situation.

I would rather expand through conquest (particularily for domination) rather than have a small densely packed area costing just as much in maintenance through the game for inferior sites. By the time I'm building swordsmen I'm usually thinking "do I have to raze that city" rather than "lets build one right there where i don't really need it". Maybe I'm missing something.
 
But in order to help the people I was replying to I kept the explanation simple so they could grasp the fundementals immediately.

I don't think you help people by doing calculations which exaggerate the benefits. I think that just leads them astray (if they believe you).

But this is just my opinion.
 
I don't think you help people by doing calculations which exaggerate the benefits. I think that just leads them astray (if they believe you).

But this is just my opinion.

I would hate to mislead people. Perhaps you should back your opinion up by demonstrating where I went wrong and exaggerated the benefits.
 
Perhaps you should back your opinion up by demonstrating where I went wrong and exaggerated the benefits.

Sure. It's in message #8: "At a city size of 10 a grassland farm produces as many hammers as a grassland hill averaged over the 10 turn whipping cycle."

You don't say "this only applies if your happiness limit is 20."
 
I don't say that because it's irrelevant. That was a point that you seemed to think was important but it has no bearing on the statement of mine that you quote.
 
That was a point that you seemed to think was important but it has no bearing on the statement of mine that you quote.

1. Your statement in post #8 is not generally true.

2. When this was pointed out to you, you defended it by arguing
2a. It makes sense to oversimplify the calculation compared to the true situation because it illustrates a basic principle and people can do the correct calculations on their own.
2b. If you are in the unusual situation of having only 10 tiles to work and a much higher happiness limit, then it might be mostly true.

3. Then you asked me to identify the misleading statement which I did.

4. Since I think it's pretty clear that what you said is not true and why it is not true, I hope I don't have anything further to add to this subthread.
 
1. My statement is true within the assumptions I have laid out in following posts. Please go back and make an effort to understand. It really is a simple and useful way of looking at things.

2. You have never criticised the statement you quote above until today. You originally disputed this statement.

1. We all know that a single pop is worth 30 base hammers when sacrificed (or whipped) under Slavery.
Which is a description of how the game works and should be beyond dispute.

2a / 2b You are trying to make things unecessarily complex again. I have explained all this before.

3. You seem to be shifting targets and not making an effort to understand what I am writing.

4. On the contrary, you have not made clear what you think is wrong at all. You continue to think I am wrong yet are unable to explain yourself.
 
Why would you use engineers specialists (-2food +2hammers) rather than mines (-1 food +3 hammers). I understand the benefit of GPP but they have dramatically decreased by the time of ironworks which you have in only one city only and is quite late so mines are already -1F +4H. Plus you can only get about four and in my present game my navy producing unit is working all its mines and has 3 engineers.

I woulld rather have a city with 2 food resources AND Hills

Really it depends on how you did your tech tree, but if you are thinking for long term, a real production city, where liek this guy you are practically working every tile, then you can in fact rush to machinery pretty easy, so you are are getting ironworks quick, and windmills, and these GPP really make a huge difference. Its just that he was expecting the city to work EVERY tile that seems strange to me, how can he do that with mines? Ok bascially im saying no cottages for a customized production city. If you must build cottages then its a bad spot for the city. Must have all farms and windmills.
 
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