Questions about Specialist Economy

[futurehermit]

You buy banks first because it will give you more $ for rushbuying immediately. It makes a HUGE difference, speaking from experience.

You buy markets/grocers because together they give you the same output as banks, but they also give you health and happiness in the city, which is always good.

Then you buy universities/observatories for your science.

 

[Wodan]

You buy banks first because it will give you more $ for rushbuying immediately. It makes a HUGE difference, speaking from experience.

I'm not disputing that it makes a huge difference.

I guess what I'm saying is that the investment is also huge. Huge investment, huge payback.

Alternately, we could spend that investment on other things (such as convert it to research).

So, the task here is figure out which is better, depending on each game's idiosyncratic differences.

You buy markets/grocers because together they give you the same output as banks, but they also give you health and happiness in the city, which is always good.

I disagree that it's always good. It totally depends on the resources you have available, leader traits, wonders you have built, buildings, and civics.

Some examples:
-- you have a lot of food resources, you built the Hanging Gardens, you're Expansive, you've got Aqueducts in all your cities already because you needed them earlier, etc. What's the use of a Grocer's health benefit?
-- you founded 3-4 religions and/or have neighbors aggressively spreading their religions to you. You adopt Free Religion, and have already whipped temples (because you needed them earlier). Maybe you're running H-Rule, and have a lot of happiness resources. Again, what's the use of Market's happy benefit?

Frankly, I've found in quite a few games that I literally have to stop myself and say, "what the heck am I doing making markets/banks/grocers". I think there's a natural tendency (for me, anyway) to think more= better. More buildings are automatically good. When that often is not the case.

Wodan

 

[Andrei_V]

You buy banks first because it will give you more $ for rushbuying immediately. It makes a HUGE difference, speaking from experience.

I'd say, if you simply rush Universities and Observatories while still on Slavery, then you won't need any banks. Or wait until the cottages are mature, you'll get enough production for Observatories etc.

Otherwise you're losing valuable commerce at not so good exchange rate. Banks sure improve that, but they cost themselves quite a lot, so in the end their own cost eats up all their bonuses.

In fact, in Warlords it makes sense to set a few cities to build wealth, and raise the science slider to 100%. All you need to do is to rush Granaries and Forges in a few small marginal cities.

 

[frob2900]

I'd say, if you simply rush Universities and Observatories while still on Slavery, then you won't need any banks. Or wait until the cottages are mature, you'll get enough production for Observatories etc.

That can cost quite a bit of population, and in food poor cities you might very well end up losing more that way (through not working villages/towns). Of course, as the situation permits, a whip or two can be useful, but it's situational.

 

[Andrei_V]

That can cost quite a bit of population, and in food poor cities you might very well end up losing more that way (through not working villages/towns). Of course, as the situation permits, a whip or two can be useful, but it's situational.

If you don't have special food resources, simply irrigate 3-4 grassland before building cottages. It is still a lot better than working mines, since with Granary/whip you convert 1 food into more than 2 hammers. Org.Rel. is also helpful for +25% hammers from every whip.

After you're done with whipping, let the city grow over all workable tiles, and only then replace farms with cottages.

If you build/capture the city too late (e.g. while running Emancipation already), I'd say, don't rush anything at all, just grow up to work max cottages, and set the city to build a Library for 90+ turns. Better build an Academy and wait until cottages are mature.

 

[Shagrat44]

I have been reading a lot of the SE posts and something I have wondered is how many cities do I want to be running specialists in? IS there a number. I have been doing the super scientist city, and trying the GP farm, but should I try and maximize specialists in a lot of cities?? Just wasn't sure if there is an optimal number?

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[ohjames]

Well, if you're running Representation, you'll get +3 beakers from every specialist, so running them all over the place won't hurt!

The wonders you have under your control have an impact too; if you've got Angkor Wat, priests are phenomenally good and can turn your farmed-up cities into production powerhouses. With Sistine Chapel, running specialists on your borders will solidify your cultural influence. And of course, it's nice to run engineers all over the place; popping a GE means either a free wonder or a free tech, after all.

 

[Shagrat44]

thanks ohjames.

running specialist has brought a new side to the game for me, and I just wasn't sure the best strategy. The last game I did I seemed to be getting more GP and GA, and less GS and GE

 

[frob2900]

If you don't have special food resources, simply irrigate 3-4 grassland before building cottages. It is still a lot better than working mines, since with Granary/whip you convert 1 food into more than 2 hammers. Org.Rel. is also helpful for +25% hammers from every whip.

After you're done with whipping, let the city grow over all workable tiles, and only then replace farms with cottages.

I thought you were talking about whipping Universities/Observatories in cities with well-developed cottage tiles. Apparently you weren't.

 

[Carnage04]

Just a point I thought about in the discussion about rush BUYING Banks, Markets, and Grocers....you are sacrificing immediate cash (In turn probably sacrificing immediate research) for returns that come in slower and over a larger period of time.

Isn't this a bit counter to the general philosophy of the SE? You get your great scientists and lightbulb immediately for instant gains rather than settling them or building academies which will probably result in far more beakers over the long haul. You whip, whip, and whip your populace to create a war machine, decreasing the amount of workable tiles and specialists that you can have....which probably would produce more in the long run.

It just seems to me that using lots of money that you have NOW to construct buildings that will only pay their way after many many turns is in opposition to what you generally do with the rest of the game.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well under SE you generally run the slider lower than "break even" (esp. if you are running representation) so banks etc. have a larger effect than with a CE. Plus you can run merchants as well which get multiplied by those buildings too.

 

[frob2900]

Isn't this a bit counter to the general philosophy of the SE? You get your great scientists and lightbulb immediately for instant gains rather than settling them or building academies which will probably result in far more beakers over the long haul.

The discussion has since page 2 been about Futurehermits transition economy idea, where you go cottage heavy after having initially been an SE/FE. The rush buying talk was about what do to do once the cottages were maturing.

(Yes, I know, a CE talk in an SE thread.. but if you follow the posts as they go along it kind of makes sense. )

 

[futurehermit]

The thing about getting banks and markets/grocers is that it allows you for more powerful rushbuying throughout the game. I've found it often takes me from 200-300 gpt to over 1000 (and even 2000 late-game) gpt!

This is really nice because then you can always drop the slider to 0 sci for 1 turn and then rush buy some improvements (like labs) whenever you need to!

And come the late game you should definitely have all of the market/grocer resources. Why wouldn't you??? (by conquering or trade, you should have all resources by mid-to-late game).

Not only that, but what else are you going to be producing in your commerce cities later in the game??? Units?!?!?!? Markets/Grocers/Universities/Observatories seem like natural builds to me.

 

[frob2900]

The thing about getting banks and markets/grocers is that it allows you for more powerful rushbuying throughout the game. I've found it often takes me from 200-300 gpt to over 1000 (and even 2000 late-game) gpt!

Yes, this is my experience too. In fact, I also often get banks/grocers/markets first, then universities/observatories in my most important cities (+oxford) and then set the slider to 50/50.. the gold income allows me

• To get extra buildings as they become necessary (colosseums+aqueducts for cottage cities that are getting large, forges etc.)
• Save quite a lot of it. It makes sense to be producing CR II/III (depending on generals) macemen + bombard trebuchets in your military city during the cottage growth phase and then mass upgrade them to grenadiers+cannon. It's only with banks/markets/grocers that you get that kind of money.

And with the English it's just crazy with the 65% stock exchanges. everywhere.

 

[The Bowman]

Here is some food for thought. What if there was a civic called MoneyRep? +3 gold for each specialist.

How would that change everyone's play?

 

[frob2900]

Here is some food for thought. What if there was a civic called MoneyRep? +3 gold for each specialist.

How would that change everyone's play?

Can it be run concurrently with standard Representation?

 

[Andrei_V]

The thing about getting banks and markets/grocers is that it allows you for more powerful rushbuying throughout the game. I've found it often takes me from 200-300 gpt to over 1000 (and even 2000 late-game) gpt!

This is really nice because then you can always drop the slider to 0 sci for 1 turn and then rush buy some improvements (like labs) whenever you need to!

How about counting them?

I mean, if you drop your science to 0% for 1 turn, this way accelerating a lab by, to say, 15 turns, do you think the lab will generate enough beakers to pay off for that lost turn?

A typical city generates like 80 commerce, so the lab will add 20 beakers per turn for 15 turns, total 300 beakers. How many labs you can accelerate in 1 turn? I'd say, 2 or 3 max, which will generate 900 beakers in the next 15 turns.

Now here is a really interesting question. How many beakers your entire empire generates in 1 turn? If like you say, you can generate 2000 gold in 1 turn with Banks and everything in place, that simply means you generate 1000 raw commerce.

Even if you convert commerce into beakers 1:1 (don't have any Libraries, Academies etc), the values are quite comparable. But in fact you have many Libraries, Universities, Oxford etc, so your average exchange rate is like 1 commerce for 2.2 beakers, total ~2200 per turn.

Congrats, you've just traded 2200 beakers now for 900 beakers later.

 

[The Bowman]

Can it be run concurrently with standard Representation?

I'm not sure if it should be grouped in the same civic category, or placed in the mercantilism/free market grouping.

 

[The Bowman]

And furthermore, wouldn't it be interesting if running merchants could produce 1 unit of food too? They do when settled! Though I find it sad that the option for FOOD specialists isn't available until that point. That would open up a little bit of more options, and variance is always good. 1 Unit food makes sense, as 2 units would be almost counting as another free specialist.

 

[MrCynical]

And furthermore, wouldn't it be interesting if running merchants could produce 1 unit of food too? They do when settled! Though I find it sad that the option for FOOD specialists isn't available until that point. That would open up a little bit of more options, and variance is always good. 1 Unit food makes sense, as 2 units would be almost counting as another free specialist.

Snag is that you could then support twice as many merchants as any other type of specialist, and with representation and caste system there'd be no real reason to run anything else. Doubling GP output, and seriously boosting gold and science output would throw the balance way out.