Questions & Answers

I dont mean to be rude or anything.

no problem

But its a nice map, so why not share it with ppl?

I made this variant only for building the mod over it and intended it as the sequel of my civ3 map.
Ini my opinion, reconverting the marshes to the original terrain, readding the starting locations, and keeping this additional download updated is a waste of time.
If you don't like the mod, there's the default map, which is very similar.
 
I have to say, I love the mod! It's rekindled my interest in Civ4. Rather unimportant question if you don't mind: What is that song that plays in the main menu? I think it is great.
 
I have to say, I love the mod! It's rekindled my interest in Civ4. Rather unimportant question if you don't mind: What is that song that plays in the main menu? I think it is great.

It's a Pink Floyd melody, but the name of the song escapes me.
 
Dearest Rhye and others who actually know how the mod works down inside,

I hope you'd be willing to help with this. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask (more of a modding question) but let's go for it:

I've been playing the old game Zeus: Master of Olympus and its expansion Poseidon. It's an old citybuilding game set in Greece and Atlantis.

So because I was bored I decided to play with the map of RFC a bit and made myself a second scenario featuring a large Atlantis archipelago in the Atlantic, which is absolutely lavishly unbalanced, by design.

I moved the Babylonians to it since they are the most expendable of the starting civs. Everything worked fine until turn 41. I've played from fresh starts twice and both times Babylon/Atlantis collapsed on that turn.

The only reason why this would happen that I can think of is stability and being completely outside their traditional homeland. Would this be the cause of the collapse? Everything else is going really well for them.

I tried to change the Bab homeland in the Constants python file, but apparently I got the coordinates wrong.. I was estimating. So: How do you determine coordinates in the World Builder?

Anything else I might need to change so everything works properly?

Also, Babylon now spawns with 2 settlers, one in Babylon and one in Atlantis. Which file do I need to edit to kill the first settler and leave only the one in Atlantis, which I placed manually in the WB? The second time I played all the other 3000BC civs spawned with a 2nd settler too... weird stuff!

I feel like perhaps I shouldn't meddle with this stuff which I don't understand. But I really want to. I'd do it on a normal non-mod map.. but then it wouldn't be RfC! I want everything else about RfC to be the same except for the presence of this new archipelago.



The rest of this post has no important questions, just a few minor ones, and an explanation of what I did with Atlantis, for the curious.

Minor question first: What files do I change to make Babylon (the civ) called Atlantis by default? Nothing I can't live without but it would be nice. City names looks impossible to deal with w/o knowing Python so I'll leave that well enough alone.

Now, because I'm feeling vain and have time: the story of Atlantis.

The Atlantis I made consists of one large island and three small islands in the Atlantic ocean. The smallest and easternmost incorporates as its easternmost tile the one-square island off the coast of Spain. The western shore does not use any existing islands.

Atlantis is fully surrounded by ocean; they will be isolated until Astronomy/Optics, although they are close enough to at least see the Spanish. This is mostly to keep them contained, since between the four islands they have virtually every resource available. I went quite overboard and threw balance out the window.. I want Atlantis to be a nearly insurmountable Titan. The islands lack nothing except the eastern luxuries, iron (their only real weakness), aluminum, and uranium.

The northern tip of the island lines up with Halifax and central France. The southern tip of the southern island corresponds with the Sahara. Overall the whole archipelago would leave a civ smaller than China but larger than Spain.

The city of Atlantis starts at size 3 with irrigated wheat, to imply (to the large audience of just me) that the city was settled even before 3000 BC. It is also, and I may change this later since it makes them even more powerful, the Taoist holy city from the start. Granted this screws over China, but when does China do well anyway? Taoism tends to be the smallest religion in most of my games. It was that or Buddhism.

Lastly, I chose Babylon because 1) they weren't always in RfC, so hey, it must still work with them elsewhere, 2) didn't want to screw things up by using someone who spawned later, and 3) they are perfect Atlanteans.

Why?
1. They automatically don't have a UHV since their capital won't be at Babylon. Otherwise Atlantis would certainly win it.
2. The UU works well--they are isolated anyway.
3. The UB is perfect--Atlantis loves science and culture!
4. The UP is perfect--if Babylon has the Power of Law and all bow before it without resisting, even more for this hypothetical even older and greater civilization.

Well, that's enough self-indulgence. Hope someone found it interesting. And more so I hope someone can help me figure out how to stop Atlantis from collapsing on turn 41 so I can see how they affect the dynamic of the game--my purpose from the start. I don't even want to play as them.. just watch!

Thanks!
 
Cities -> you can just edit the names of Babylonian ones in Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml

Starting location and coordinates -> all you have to change is in Consts.py: capital, core areas, normal areas, broader areas. (important for the motherland check too)

Names -> it's also easy; just a few xml tags change
 
Hi Rhye,

I'm playing your mod for the first time right now and thought I'd note down my first impressions, some questions, and perhaps a bug report or two. Perhaps my notes can help you in one way or another.

The most important thing first: I'm having a lot of fun playing your mod, thanks for making it! :thumbsup: Naturally, the following list will contain mostly negative aspects, but don't let that fool you into thinking I wouldn't have a great time with your mod. :) Also, keep in mind that these are first impressions of a first time player. Some of my problems will probably solve themselves after a while when I've got a better understanding of the mod and it's mechanic. Still, I thought you might be interested in which aspects are difficult to understand for a new player.

Okay, now to the things that came to my mind while playing, I'll just write them down as they occur to me. In case it's important, I'm playing version 1.19 on top of Warlords 2.08, no other mods, clean CustomAssets, and I chose the Babylonians (nice to have them, I still miss them in the official game).


1. Lack of (in-game) documentation

I'd appreciate more information about the game mechanics of your mod. For example, I looked in the "Game Concepts" section of the Civilopedia for an explanation of stability and the factors influencing it, but couldn't find it there. There's some info about that in the readme, but not all of it is clear to me, and it'd be much easier to access in the 'pedia. Also, the readme explains at length the projection of the map (which is nice additional info, but mostly unimportant for someone who just wants to play the map), while just glancing at the more important aspects of gameplay.

I was looking for a FAQ thread in the forums and found this one, however seeing that it starts with off-topic discussions about flags and Italian language didn't especially encourage me to read further than page 5. I usually try to look for information myself before asking questions, but it seems a bit difficult in this case.


2. Great opening music

Great choice for the menu tune. :) When starting the mod, I just closed my eyes and listened to it for a couple of times - it really gets me in the mood. :)


3. Mercenaries lacking documentation too

My first experience with the mercenaries in this mod was that I built my first bowman, saw an action button that I didn't recognize and that had a rather non-descriptive description ("unit selection" or something like that), clicked on it, and suddenly my bowman was gone and I couldn't find it any more, so I reloaded. I guess it has to do something with mercenaries, and I'm sure I will eventually find out how this works, but it would be nice to have some sort of documentation about this feature. The readme seems to assume that the player already knows about the mercenaries mod component, which will be true for many players, but I don't and hence I'm at a loss. I'll search CFC for the original mod to find the original documentation, which will probabkly answer my questions, but it wouldn't hurt to have this documented in RFC as well, or to at least have a link to the original docs of the included mods.


4. City naming is great

I absolutely love the way how cities are renamed when captured by a different civ, and how the game assigns city names that fit the city's location. This adds a lot to the atmosphere, and it shows a love to small details that I like in mods. :)


5. Foreign advisor is very good, apart from minor problems

I like the included foreign advisor, it's a huge improvement over the original advisor in every respect. However, I also have some problems with it. On the "Glance" page, the first column (or first two columns) are shifted to the left, so that the numbers of the leftmost column are printed over the leader pictures at the left edge of the screen. This makes the numbers hardly readable. Also, this screen has a square button that changes between "+" and "-" when I click it, but I have no idea what it does besides that (the documentation problem again). The pages "Resources" and "Technologies" get a bit cumbersome when you've got contact with many civs, because they only scroll up or down by one line per click. A scroll slider, or additional buttons for "page up" / "page down" could help here.


6. Unclear "Indepent leader" issues

I'm not sure whether there is *one* independent leader or whether there are many of them. In the trading screen, I often see that my rivals have contact to many independent leaders (apparently without any possibility to differentiate between them, how do I tell a rival to attack independent leader A instead of independent leader B?). Also, each independent city seems to have its own territory, again suggesting that there are many independent leaders. However, when I attack one independent city, then all of them across the world seem to be at war with me, suggesting that there is only one independent leader. Then again, even though the other independent cities seem to be at war with me (city plaque shown in red), they never make any effort to attack or pillage me. I'm confused.

My guess is that each independent city has its own, unique independent leader, and that the red plaque for the city name is just a display issue. But I'm not sure. Also, the problem that I can't tell a rival to attack a specific independent city persists.


7. Unclear stability and city flipping event

In my game, I suddenly had the Persian capital flipping to me, and the Persian empire collapsing at the same time. I don't know how I got the city, it probably flipped to me because of my cultural influence, but I didn't get the usual popup asking me whether I want to keep the city. I just suddenly had one city more while the surrounding Persian cities became independent. What exactly happened?


8. Strange troop relocation overloads caravel

The same event not only gave me a city, but also some formerly Persian troops. 2 immortals, 3 trebuchets, 2 horse riders, 2 musketmen, 1 catapult, and about 9 longbowmen all suddenly belonged to me (which multiplied my military strength, before that flip my entire army consisted of 2 longbowmen). The strange thing is that *all* of these troops were loaded onto *one* single caravel, that also changed allegiance to me. What happened? How can a caravel (that usually can't hold a single one o these units) suddenly hold one and a half dozen of them? I probably could have exploited it to ship my whole army to the arabian peninsula and attack Saladin, who was at war with me, but I decided not to exploit the situation.


9. Does the AI pursue historic victory?

If the AI can understand its historic victory conditions, then it seems to be rather bad at pursuing them. It's 1715 in my game, and out of 16 civs, only 2 have managed to achieve one of their objectives, all others failed to achieve any. I realize that many civs have later objectives anyways, but still a lot of civs sems to have failed their objectives.


10. Two greys for number of objectives?

I noticed that on the score list, some civs have their number of accomplished objectives shown in light grey, and some in dark grey. What's the difference? At first I thought that one colour might be used for civs that can still actually complete all three objectives, and another colour for those that have already failed at least one objective. But that's not true for my current game. So what's the real meaning of the two colours?


11. Bug in display of my own objectives

When I look at the victory screen, I see that I apparently didn't reach my first objective (being the first to discover Writing, Code of Laws, and Monarchy): the second column reads "NO". (I didn't notice failing the objective btw, is there any message that tells you when you failed to accomplish one?) The two other objectives are listed as "Not yet" accomplished. However, both of them were due to turn 86, and I'm well past turn 200 now. I'm pretty sure I've gailed to accomplish these objectives too. So shouldn't the line read "NO", for "not accomplished", instead of "Not Yet"?


12. Some events not being logged

I (think I) had a rebirth event of a rival civ, I read something about German cities displayed at the upper left of the screen. However, when opened the log to check what exactly happened, the entry wasn't there.


13. Calendar and turn number

It's a nice idea that the turn number is obscured from the player until he discovers Calendar, but having the turn number displayed whenever I click on "save game" kind of destroys the intended effect. Okay, I don't *have* to save my game, but still ...


14. Inability to scroll past a certain area of the map

When I sent my first warrior scouting towards Europe, there was a point where I couldn't scroll the map any further to the left. I think I couldn't scroll west of Italy. However, I could still move my warrior when I used the number pad, or when I zoomed out and clicked on some area he should go to. Is this scrolling limit intended behavior? If so, shouldn't the simple workarounds be prevented?

Note: The scroll limit went away after a while, I can now scroll freely anywhere. I don't know when that changed or what caused it to change.


15. Weird mouse movement after task switching

Perhaps connected to 15: When I Alt-Tab out of the game, then (on my windows desktop) my mouse goes to the upper left corner of the screen, no matter what I do. I can't do anything - when I try to move the mouse somewhere else, it will follow my command for a short moment, and then quickly return to the upper left corner. This is not happening with vanilla Warlords or any other game or mod, it only occurs when Alt-Tabbing out of RFC while the main map is displayed. The problem doesn't occur when I open another screen (like one of the advisors) prior to task switching.


16. AI too defensive?

I notice that the AI rarely conquers other AI cities, and rarely attacks in the first place. The AI seems to have hordes of archers or longbowmen in its cities, making offensive wars very difficult for the other AIs. They don't even attack independent cities very often. In my game, Mehmed keeps moving his throng of knights around between his two cities, without making any attempt to attack any rival. Only Jerusalem has changed hands three times by now. That's despite me having tuned on the "Aggressive AI" option.

However, since I play Babylon and had little contact to other civs, perhaps there's a lot of attacking going on that I don't see. I'll have an eye on it in my further games.


Okay, that's all for now. Thanks for reading. And yes, I really DO like your mod, as I said. There are just old beta tester habits breaking through ... perhaps you can make use of some of my reports. :)

Now, back to playing ...
 
Thank you for your comments

1- I'm encouraging the development of a strategy guide, but it's not easy for users describe something that's regulary changing (especially stability). I hope to dedicate some time on this after the mod reaches a final status

3- Mmmm, it's true, and I don't think there's an original documentation for it. It should be made from scratch and I don't have time for it now. Maybe for the button description... it means "contract the unit out" anyway

4- Here it's hard for me to put my hands on some code I haven't written

5- This is a limitation that can't be changed. There are 2 independent civs, but they've the same name to create the illusion of being many different ones

8- clearly a bug, I need a savegame of the turn before the flip to see what happened+

9- Yes it's bad. Goals were made keeping in mind that AI might do them, but they often don't

10- It means that some goals are already failed

11- Bug fixed

13- This was first of all a users request. And a way for differentiating savegames, which would have the same name if this wasn't the case

14/15- No idea. May be something with your graphics card?

16- Aggressive AI is already enabled. And there are other additions that are making AI way more aggressive than the standard game. Still, it isn't enough, it seems...in particular, AI can't manage an overseas invasion
 
Is there a reason why the Demographics screen all of a sudden contains no info about rivals? It would be nice to know how far away I am from my goal.
 
Warlords v 1.19

Demographics.jpg
 
Yep, that appeared a couple of versions ago.
 
Thank you for your comments

Thanks for your answers. :)

Regarding the documentation: I absolutely agree that working on the game mechanics has higher priority than documenting them. Especially writing a documentation about game elements that are subject to change anyways is likely to be wasted effort.

5- This is a limitation that can't be changed. There are 2 independent civs, but they've the same name to create the illusion of being many different ones

Wow, that's an amazing concept ... it certainly worked for me. :)

I'm not sure, perhaps it would be better to remove the "Independent Leader" entries from the trade screen (the "Declare war on ..." / "Make peace with ..." etc. lists of leaders)? They don't seem to serve a purpose there, and are potentially confusing.

8- clearly a bug, I need a savegame of the turn before the flip to see what happened

I don't have a savegame, I was too caught up in playing. :( I'll se whether I can reproduce the situation.

10- It means that some goals are already failed

Then the display was bugged for a couple of civilizations. I read in the bug thread that you already fixed something in that regard. I'll keep an eye on it to check whether there are more bugs lurking. :)

13- This was first of all a users request. And a way for differentiating savegames, which would have the same name if this wasn't the case

Theoretically one could use a counter that just increments by 1 with every new save, but it might not be worth the hassle of implementing it. It's an extremely minor thing anyways, and I'm not even bothered by the fact that I can determine the exact turn number by saving my game. I'm just not sure whether you intended it that way, as it runs counter to the feature of hiding the year until Calendar is researched.


16- Aggressive AI is already enabled. And there are other additions that are making AI way more aggressive than the standard game. Still, it isn't enough, it seems...in particular, AI can't manage an overseas invasion

Perhaps it's not the aggressiveness of the AI that has to be tweaked, but the way how offense and defense work in the game. Compared to other strategy games, Civ4 favours defense a lot. For example, when Mehmed doesn't attack Persian cities with 8 longbowmen in them, perhaps the solution is not to tweak him into attacking anyways, but to make it harder to accumulate the defensive strength of 8 fortified city garrison longbowmen in a walled city.

My reasoning is this: In unmodded Civ, it is important to make it very hard to take cities - because if you don't, you can easily get a "runaway civ" which simply crushes all others. Think about what Montezuma would do to his neighbours if archers were nerfed in unmodded Civ. However, contrary to unmodded Civ, RFC has additional mechanics to prevent a civ from running away: one is stability, another is the fact that new civilizations with substantial military power will emerge later on. Thus, I suspect that RFC could do away with some of the defense-favouring that Civ4 needs, and reduce some of the defense bonuses.

But as I said, my experience of RFC consists of exactly two games, so I might very well be talking utter rubbish. ;)
 
About the agressive AI option, I think it´s kinda useless, because it forces the AI to declare war in unexpected conditions even for itself (doesn´t have an attack force ready), and it renders the diplomacy values useless too since you can have a pleased neighbour and you cannot be sure if he will go wacko or not because of this option.

To summarize: the option gives more war declarations, but not so many more real engagement. All this IMHO.
 
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