Questions for turn 238

[General_W]

If they have a spy (which costs only 100g) they will know how many units we have and how many of each type just as we know how many they have. With SABER sitting on a huge pile of gold how I don't see how they would have failed to plant a spy. Poor as we are we scraped up the gold. I'd say this possibility is very small.

True – but gold isn’t the only reason to avoid planting a spy.

It’s possible Saber was afraid that planting a spy would tip us off to their hostile intentions and avoided it for that reason.

My guess is that they only have 2 carriers here with 2 jets and 6 bombers. I'm also pretty sure they will land this turn, cause if they don't, they run a risk of having those transports sunk by bombers.

I think those are both good guesses. I don’t know that I’m as sure as you – but I’d give a 65% odds that Saber lands this turn.

The top 7 all have barracks and are producing our MA. Two of them which are producing 2 turn MA could produce 1 turn artillery, which may be a better use of them - 4 artys might be better than 2 MA in 2 turns.

We have 5 mobile sams, but 4 of them are on SCI - I can airlift 1 back to the mainland each turn.

I think subs, right now, are not all that useful for us.

I think getting 4 Artillery instead of 2 Modern Armor is a great plan. Especially in view of the smaller stack Saber is likely to land. Combine that with the high probability that their invasion will include at least one army –having some more artillery could make a huge difference in the survival rate of our Modern Armor.

I think we should airlift the one Mobile SAM back, and try to rush buy at least one more.

re: Subs... you're probably right. those shields are better off as bombers artillery and Mobile SAMs for now.

if I can, short rush another SAM in The Phoenix, but with nothing in the box, that might be expensive (short rush a worker, than whatever is left)

If you disband a worker in the city, you’ll get 2 shields into the bin (iirc) and that lets you avoid the penalty for rushing an empty box (or is that just a Civ4 thing? )

…
Basically, stop building jets and subs, get some artys and more bombers.

This will give us a bunch of mobile sams and some 20 odd bombers on the mainland.

I’m sorry I don’t have time to look at the save and offer more specific feedback – but I think you’ve got 100% the right goals at this point.

Mostly we need Artillery, Bombers, and Mobile SAMs.
Of course we want to keep adding to our stack of Modern Armor also – but we’re really hurting in the other categories more.

Having more Mech Infantry is also a plus, but we can draft those in a pinch.
And speaking of that… I don’t see any mention of a plan to draft units? Are you thinking our risk level is low enough right now that we don’t need to interrupt our production schedules for this?

I’m personally ok with that as long as we have enough artillery and bombers at the start of the next turn to be confident we can deal with any landing Saber is in position to make.

 

[Yilar]

Bombers, artis are useless. Get us modern tanks, even if they are regular. Doing 1-2hp dmg is peanuts compared to killing actual units. If we win without taking big dmg, we can even attack again, the bomber and arti can't. We have good odds on EVERY battle (remember we did radar towers for a reason!)

 

[tomasjj]

MA can attack multiple times, which it surely will be able to do more often if it stays alive. Artys and bombers will reduce their strength, so they will be easier pickings.

I can see the argument for both sides...but we are short on bombers and arty now.

 

[Yilar]

A mixture of units does not make the stack better. Going all out MA is better imo. There is no unit that even comes close to the power of an MA when you look at the cost.

Also the statement about 4 artis vs 2 ma is incorrect!
We have 6 ma ready next turn and only 1 city without enough shields to produce 1 ma next turn, it can't produce arti either (no wt bonus!).

I checked some numbers and if we focus on MA using our gold to short rush, we could have as many as 17 Modern armors built next turn! (10 regular) Bringing our total up to 76 (including upgraded tanks).

With that many tanks there is absolutely no way that Saber can kill us without help from FREE.

 

[Paul#42]

I agree. MA are most benefitting.

Arties can backfire if they are captured and bombers might be easy picks if their city / tile is captured.
MA hit twice or even three times and defend. That's fourfold value.

How do MA do against an MA army on a hill?
How many vet MA do we need to take out a 15/15 MA army with arty cover with 90% confidence?

 

[tomasjj]

So, the unit is almost to be considered as broken then?

 

[donsig]

We decided long ago that armor was our best defense and I think we should stick with that. Artillery and bombers do not get the mobilization bonus. I don't know that bombers are useless though. They can attack ships off shore, but with our navy virtually gone we can't really hope to sink anything with bombers, can we? We do need to ensure we have enough workers around though. It costs a worker to plant a radar tower.

This all seems way too easy though if SABER just lands 54 units. I can't see them landing 54 armor, not with all those armies. And they'll want to have a settler or three along. Not knowing where those other SABER transports are should make us very wary. I guess we should leave the ship chian ni place as is in case the other half of SABER's transports show up off the coast of SCI.

 

[tomasjj]

We decided long ago that armor was our best defense and I think we should stick with that. Artillery and bombers do not get the mobilization bonus. I don't know that bombers are useless though. They can attack ships off shore, but with our navy virtually gone we can't really hope to sink anything with bombers, can we? We do need to ensure we have enough workers around though. It costs a worker to plant a radar tower.

This all seems way too easy though if SABER just lands 54 units. I can't see them landing 54 armor, not with all those armies. And they'll want to have a settler or three along. Not knowing where those other SABER transports are should make us very wary. I guess we should leave the ship chian ni place as is in case the other half of SABER's transports show up off the coast of SCI.

Mobilization is a good point.
Didn't consider that.

I did in fact think about bombers as an attack for towards their ships.

And I agree on the last part. A skilled player would not throw in a little expeditionary force for it to be most likely gobbled up like that. I smell a feint of some kind.

 

[Yilar]

More exact:

We currently have 11 workers and 25 slaves.
We have spent 268 gold on espionage and 420 on upgrade. Our gold is now: 1249.

The simple stuff first:
The Bayou to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Pier to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Chamber to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Gulag to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Silo to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Treasure to build MA: Complete in 1 turn
The Admiralty to build MA: Complete in 1 turn

And this is where it gets a little tricky:
The Meeting room:
Currently: Sub - 72s, production: 36s
1. Give tobacco mine from The Silo to The Meeting Room
2. Mine plains SE of The Meeting Room with 3 regular workers, so it gets 40 shields (50-10), then Rush buy a cav (80s) for 32 gold and switch build to MA
Result: The Meeting room will complete MA next turn, with no waste.

The Beach:
Currently: Sub - 79s, production: 5s
Rush buy Modern Armor, it costs 164g.
Result: The Beach will complete MA next turn with 5 shields wasted.

The Ways:
Currently: Sub - 78s, production: 17s
1. Mine only irragated grass in range with regular workers.
2. Change taxmen to Policemen
3. Shortrush submarine for 88g and switch to MA
Result: The Ways will complete MA next turn, with no waste.

The Dislodged:
Currently: Sub - 86s, production: 6s
1. Give Mined game and mined bg from The Phoenix to The dislodged.
2. Rush Buy mech infantry for 96g, and switch to MA
Result: The Dislodged will complete MA next turn, with no waste.

Chamsuri's Cove:
Currently: Sub - 78s, production: 14s
1. Rush Buy mech infantry for 128g, and switch to MA
Result: Chamsuri's Cove will complete MA next turn, with 4s wasted.

The Igloo:
Currently: Jet Fighter - 54s, production: 54s
1. Clear Pollution with 5 workers and 2 slaves use it in The Igloo.
2. Take regular mined grass 2 squares SW of The Igloo from The Silo and give it to The igloo (move used lake tile, which you can then give to Chamsuri's Cove, instead of it's taxmen).
Result: The Igloo will complete MA next turn, with no waste.

The New Yard:
Currently: Mobile Sam - 51s, production: 17s
1. Switch 1 ocean tile to one of the unused mountains
2. Rush Buy Mobile sam for 196g, and switch to MA
Resulta: The New Yard will complete MA next turn, with 1s wasted.

The Red Tape:
Currently: Submarine - 35s, production: 25s
1. Rushbuy Submarine for 300g and switch to MA
Result: The Red Tape will complete MA next turn, with 5s wasted.

The Institute:
Currently Modern Armor - 0s, production: 80s (or so).
1. Disband slave (or worker if you prefer to use 2 slaves for previous worker tasks).
2. Rush buy Cruise missles for 232g and switch to MA
Result: The Institute will complete MA next turn, with some 20s wasted, but if we give some tiles to The Arboretum it can do 2 turn armors with 62s prod.

Summed up Result:
Complete next turn:
17 Modern Armor and 13g left.

This still leaves us with 22 slaves or 21 slaves left to move, depending on which worker you disbanded. It takes 2 workers or 3 slaves to complete a road in one turn.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm fine with building regular MA's, if everyone thinks that's a better way to go.

The reason why bombers may not be useless is because they have very little protection for their stack of transports - we might be able to kill some expensive naval units, including transports - won't help with the first run of units, but might help keep a 2nd group away.

I don't THINK we need to draft mechs yet.

 

[Yilar]

We could draft mechs out of The Red tape, The Squeeze and The Marina for only one lost commerce per mech, I would draft out of those cities for sure. Drafting from the rest i'm not to keen on, as the loss is much greater. Such as losing defensive values from metros, cities.

Btw, Free got Fission this turn to.

 

[Paul#42]

Do not forget to plant Radars wherever SABER might attack (The Nursery + covered coastal tiles).
Where possible, two tiles from the coast so no battleship can shell them.

Cover those radars with Mech Infs and Mobile SAMs if possible or jet fighters on sentry duty.

I'd limit drafts to those possible without too much hurt.

 

[Yilar]

I think the mountain AT suggested earlier was good idea (assuming the tower covers 5x5 tiles, like the jet), put a few marines/mechs and on the mountain and it can't be destroyed, at least not by their puny airforce.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't plan on contesting the open tiles they can land on. They'll just kill whoever is there with a bomber anyway.

 

[donsig]

Btw, Free got Fission this turn to.

Don't like the sound of that. They also have a leader, don't they? We must keep an eye out for Manhattan.

Very good work on the MMing for more MAs Yilar.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think they have an MGL, not an SGL.

 

[Yilar]

Btw, how does it work out with tech costs, once a civ gets the tech? It gets cheaper right?

Say FREE were to get Space Flight in say 8 turns, would there be a pricedrop in amount of breakers needed and if so how much?

 

[Paul#42]

Say FREE were to get Space Flight in say 8 turns, would there be a pricedrop in amount of breakers needed and if so how much?

Back when we were five it was like 11% IIRC.
Not sure what it's like with four of us but one could take a look at one of our monopoly techs back when CA2 still worked...

Maybe FREE starts an attempt for a diplomatic victory?
That is imo the only vc that should have been disabled for this game...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

There would be a price drop, yes.

I think it's a larger drop with only 4 in the game, but I don't remember how much of a drop it is.

 

[Yilar]

Would it be big enough to drop our maximum research time from 5 to 4? The monopoly cost was 9000 (I think), at 2k breakers@100% it would have to drop about 1000breakers or about 12% to 8000 for us to do it in 4 turns..