Questions on Si-Move (for Firaxians)

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Mike B: as always, when something makes us real curious you come through with a full explanation - thanx!!!!!

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS
In Si-Move, everyone moves at the same time but you have to wait until everyone moves before you can move again. The turn ends when all players have finished moving or when the turn timer completes. At that point, all upkeep and AI turns take place. Thus, you can potentially lose and re-capture a city on the same turn, depending on when you move your units.

You can set a turn time limit for Si-Move, Turn-Based, and Turnless but it is optional. The turn timer is configurable (slow, normal, fast) but is based on the number of units and cities on the map (so you will get more time for your turn as the game progresses).

Turnless is much closer to (though not quite) real-time. There are no turns. All players move at the same time. When a unit is moved, it cannot be moved again for a short period of time. Once a city is built, it begins to produce and performs upkeep every few seconds. Thus you will get cities producing at different times and units moving at different times.

Appreciated.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I'm happy the question was answered quickly, but not happy with the answer. A truly simultaneous move, like we have in the boardgame Diplomacy, would have been better. So for example, if two units try to move into the same space, the program could have waited for all orders to be received, then given the space to the faster unit, or, if neither was faster, to the stronger (A+D values), or if neither was stronger, to neither. Such a game would be very interesting. I don't like games that emphasize reaction times. To the fastest typist go the spoils? No thanks.

 

[warpstorm]

In rare cases will it be the fastest typist. In most cases, it will be the one who thought to be looking at that part of the map. I assume trickery will play a much bigger role than currently.

 

[cgannon64]

Thank you very much Mike!!! So, in some cases, it will pay to move your units last, this way you can respond to an attack?

From what you told us, it seems that the game will update what is happening every few seconds in si-move (so you can see when your cities are captured). This means lag in alot of cases! *cgannon64 is joyous that he as Cable, as he will play multi w/o too much lag!*

CG

 

[WillJ]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
If, on the other hand you think it functions like the Total War games, where everyone gives their movement orders, but noone actually moves until all finish their turns, then I think you're wrong. This is also a kind of si-move, but I'm quite sure that this is not the kind used in PTW.

Oh OK, that's how I thought it was going to be, like in Risk II, but now I guess it's not.

Originally posted by cgannon64
From what you told us, it seems that the game will update what is happening every few seconds in si-move (so you can see when your cities are captured). This means lag in alot of cases! *cgannon64 is joyous that he as Cable, as he will play multi w/o too much lag!*

CG

No, if I understand correctly that's how it is going to be in turnless mode, not simultaneous mode. In simultaneous mode everything is updated and shown to the players after everyone has moved. In turnless mode each unit's move and everything else (city imp. construction, tech research, etc.) lasts a few seconds.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS
In Si-Move, everyone moves at the same time but you have to wait until everyone moves before you can move again. The turn ends when all players have finished moving or when the turn timer completes. At that point, all upkeep and AI turns take place. Thus, you can potentially lose and re-capture a city on the same turn, depending on when you move your units.

Unless I read that wrong, what Mike B. means by "You can potentially lose and re-capture a city on the same turn" is that when someone attacks and takes my city, the game has to update the map to reveal the city changing hands. Then, if I move my units and recapture it on the same turn, the game has to again update.

CG

 

[warpstorm]

For si-move to work right the map has to continually update whenever anything changes.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by warpstorm
For si-move to work right the map has to continually update whenever anything changes.

Right. Which is why there will be major lag if anyone is using 56k. Another question for Firaxis: why does the multi have to go as fast as the slowest player? That is going to make games exclusive, only accepting people with certain types of modems.

CG

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by cgannon64


why does the multi have to go as fast as the slowest player?

CG

It doesn't. There is also the email game, which I think will be quite popular....

 

[warpstorm]

And turn based.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by cgannon64
Thank you very much Mike!!! So, in some cases, it will pay to move your units last, this way you can respond to an attack?

From what you told us, it seems that the game will update what is happening every few seconds in si-move (so you can see when your cities are captured). This means lag in alot of cases! *cgannon64 is joyous that he as Cable, as he will play multi w/o too much lag!*CG

You have already got a few responses, but I'd like to comment this as well:

Yes, it will certainly pay to move your units last a few times. When you're planning a surprise attack on an opponent, you should make sure to do it after he has moved his units in the area for that turn.

Regarding the update, this is how I believe it works:
In si-move, the update is instant just as in SP. This should not be very hard, even with 56k modems, as there arent very much information that needs to be sent. There should be very little lag in this game.

You partly confuse si-move with turnless mode. In turnless, each city production updates every few seconds. That is, after a few sceonds, the city simulates a new turn and thus updates production, culture, growth etc.. Everythin else, which in SP happens during the turns (city is conquered) will of course be updated immediately.

 

[RufRydyr]

I too am wondering about the 'lag'. Luckily I have a cable modem, but how often will the map update? How hard will it be to find other cable modem users to play against and will that game go faster?

 

[jpowers]

I believe a quite different set of skills is going to be required to perform well in si-move or turnless games than in the current situation. I know if I were to use the turnless option, I'd get easily distracted by one successful stack or scout, and forget about moving other units for a while.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Regarding any lag: I don't see the reason that there should be much lag in this game: If you give a movement command, what will probably happen is that your PC sends a movemen message to the server which updates the unit's position and send the new position to all the PCs. Each PC can then easily display your unit in the correct position. There's no reason that there should take many milliseconds from you give your order and until all the PCs are updated.

With combat, there's no reason for anything extra, when the server gets the movement messages, it transmits it to all PCs, and then the server and all the PCs can show and calculate combat locally. All should use the same random seed, so combat can easily be computed locally.

There's really very little information that needs to be sent through the net, so this should be smooth as a baby's behind.

 

[RufRydyr]

It's going to require different strategies, too.

 

[docceh]

looks like this can open up the possibility for SERIOUS deception tactics

ie, concentrate ur opponent's focus to one area while you surprise attack another ?

can't wait!

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


It doesn't. There is also the email game, which I think will be quite popular....

Yes, Firaxians have said in the PTW chat that multi will go as fast as the slowest modem in the game.,,

CG

 

[RufRydyr]

Originally posted by docceh
looks like this can open up the possibility for SERIOUS deception tactics

ie, concentrate ur opponent's focus to one area while you surprise attack another ?

can't wait!

Me neither. I'm already dusting off my copy of "The Art of War".

 

[raspa]

One of the things Firaxians said was their "biggest challenge" in making si-move was two different enemy units moving into the same square. So, I ask, for Firaxis, or anyone who knows the answer, how will this be handled?


You wrote, two different ENEMY units moving into the same square.
My question is, why two different Friendly units (one of each player) attaking themselves when both moving into the same square? Remember that the players are in Peace Treaty.