Questions regarding the AI

[Goodgimp]

I'm just curious as to what extent the AI has been tweaked in order to play within the FFH2 mod. Some of my questions I'm sure will demonstrate the fact that I'm new to the mod, so I apologize for my ignorance in advance.

-Magic: Does the AI understand how magic units are used (not including summoners, I've seen them summon all the time)? That is, does the AI know how to build an Adept, rank him up to a mage, and start tossing fireballs your way? Does the AI know to bring one along to an attack, similar to a catapult in vanilla civ?

-Techs: Does the AI prioritize techs? That's worded poorly, but what I mean is, you take some leaders in Vanilla civ, and they shoot for particular techs. Isabella, for instance, highly favors religious techs. Do Arcane leaders such as the Amurites favor magic techs, etc?

-War: Just a general question on AI aggressiveness and warmaking capability in FFH2. From my limited window of experience, the AI seems to be more docile than in vanilla civ, even with Aggressive AI turned on. Is this because of the larger "Years of Peace" diplo boost, or is my limited sample size too small and I have an incorrect perception?

Also, fireballs. It seems once I get to the point where I can have a few fireball-tossing mages around, pretty much any defense liquifies before me. Is that other people's experience as well? Will the AI build anything (assassins, whatever) to counter the uber fire mage?

Also, I do not see the dreaded "Stacks of Doom" from the AI very much so far, compared to vanilla. Again, this could be limited experience on my part playing relatively peaceful games, so I"m hoping experienced players can shed some light

-Final Question: What difficulty setting do you play vanilla civ on, and what difficulty setting do you play FFH2 on? Just curious!

Gotta say I absolutely love this mod. Civ4 is probably one of my all-time favorite games, and I've been gaming since the Commodore 64. FFH2 tops it for me, though, so kudos to everyone involved.

 

[Aradiel]

-Magic: Does the AI understand how magic units are used (not including summoners, I've seen them summon all the time)? That is, does the AI know how to build an Adept, rank him up to a mage, and start tossing fireballs your way? Does the AI know to bring one along to an attack, similar to a catapult in vanilla civ?

Im afraid the ai does not use magic efficiently, in one game i saw the blasperaph boosting his units with sharpened blades, but usually they dont use it at all.

-Techs: Does the AI prioritize techs? That's worded poorly, but what I mean is, you take some leaders in Vanilla civ, and they shoot for particular techs. Isabella, for instance, highly favors religious techs. Do Arcane leaders such as the Amurites favor magic techs, etc?

Im not sure, certain is ljosfalar go for leaves, sheaim go for ash, but in most games its not tellable who researches what.

-War: Just a general question on AI aggressiveness and warmaking capability in FFH2. From my limited window of experience, the AI seems to be more docile than in vanilla civ, even with Aggressive AI turned on. Is this because of the larger "Years of Peace" diplo boost, or is my limited sample size too small and I have an incorrect perception?

The ai acts less agressive than in common civ, only once i have been suprised, on prince diff the blasperaph wiped out 2 neighbours and came for me with 3 stacks of 10+ units at once around turn 200. I never ever saw such a focused attack before or again sadly.

Also, fireballs. It seems once I get to the point where I can have a few fireball-tossing mages around, pretty much any defense liquifies before me. Is that other people's experience as well? Will the AI build anything (assassins, whatever) to counter the uber fire mage?

Nope the only thing it will do is send reinforcements to hold the city

Also, I do not see the dreaded "Stacks of Doom" from the AI very much so far, compared to vanilla. Again, this could be limited experience on my part playing relatively peaceful games, so I"m hoping experienced players can shed some light

Only one ocasion of "a" stack of doom in many games, probably im just to smart to let it come that far, but i have yet to expierience it on higher difficultys

-Final Question: What difficulty setting do you play vanilla civ on, and what difficulty setting do you play FFH2 on? Just curious!

I recommend king or higher, on king i still kick the crap out of the ai, on monarch the research is really getting crippled so that might be a challenge.

 

[onedreamer]

-Magic: Does the AI understand how magic units are used (not including summoners, I've seen them summon all the time)? That is, does the AI know how to build an Adept, rank him up to a mage, and start tossing fireballs your way? Does the AI know to bring one along to an attack, similar to a catapult in vanilla civ?

The staff proudly announced that the AI in the latest version was now capable of using magic properly. I haven't really enjoyed this, or better: the AI WOULD be able to use magic properly if it had the right units to do it. It seems to me that the AI just doesn't know how to build a mage properly. It seems too complicated for Civ4 AI, perhaps. It does know how it can cast Ring of Flames for example, if that's what the staff intended, although I also must say that the ability to use it strategically (for example escorted priests in a siege, or defending Priests in a city) is still out of the AI's reach.

-Techs: Does the AI prioritize techs? That's worded poorly, but what I mean is, you take some leaders in Vanilla civ, and they shoot for particular techs. Isabella, for instance, highly favors religious techs. Do Arcane leaders such as the Amurites favor magic techs, etc?

Yes, the AI preoritizes research a lot in FFH2. This has been implemented quite well IMO. With the exception of Ashen Veil maybe, that lately doesn't seem as successful as it was before with the AI. This is a general problem about religion and the tech awarding a free priest though, but with AV it is amplified because an AV following civ is required in order for the Infernals to appear, and lately this just doesn't seem to happen, unless human player intervention.

-War: Just a general question on AI aggressiveness and warmaking capability in FFH2. From my limited window of experience, the AI seems to be more docile than in vanilla civ, even with Aggressive AI turned on. Is this because of the larger "Years of Peace" diplo boost, or is my limited sample size too small and I have an incorrect perception?

You have an incorrect perception. The AI is more aggressive than regular BtS AI IMO, but this aggressiveness depends also from the Armageddon Counter and from the military potential. If you use the "AI no building requirement" option, the AI will have much higher military potential and make wars more often. And even quite early.

Also, fireballs. It seems once I get to the point where I can have a few fireball-tossing mages around, pretty much any defense liquifies before me. Is that other people's experience as well? Will the AI build anything (assassins, whatever) to counter the uber fire mage?

This is definitely not a fireball problem, but a collateral damage problem. In Civ4 collateral damage is just "whack". It's overpowered. Compare siege units to Civ3 and you'll have an idea of how much. In fact, cannons are way more powerful than fire mages, and you can have more than 3. Or did you think that dwarves were screwed ? I actually think it of Elves. They are the only civs that when declaring war and coming to me with huge stacks don't pose any serious threat. And that's because they have no catapults along, and no fire mages, especially since incidentally none of them starts with Fire mana (very bad).

Also, I do not see the dreaded "Stacks of Doom" from the AI very much so far, compared to vanilla. Again, this could be limited experience on my part playing relatively peaceful games, so I"m hoping experienced players can shed some light

That's due to BtS AI, which is more tactical. In Vanilla you only had to withstand the initial attack, the "Stack of Doom" as you call it. I called it the "Regular Army", because after taking out that one, the AI was incapable of anything, it would only have the few units left to defend cities, unable to send reinforcements in a minimally organized way.

-Final Question: What difficulty setting do you play vanilla civ on, and what difficulty setting do you play FFH2 on? Just curious!

BtS: Monarch/Emperor
FFH2: Emperor. But I just don't play some civs which I think quite overpowered. And I rarely play underpowered civs either. (in Civ4/BtS all civs are pretty much the same).

Gotta say I absolutely love this mod. Civ4 is probably one of my all-time favorite games, and I've been gaming since the Commodore 64. FFH2 tops it for me, though, so kudos to everyone involved.

fully agree

 

[Goodgimp]

Thanks a lot for the replies thus far

Regarding the AI and Arcane units, if the problem is building them and leveling them up properly, I wonder if an option would be possible to allow the AI to construct Mages directly (Similar to No AI Building Requirements)? I'm not sure how it would be done since they have a level requirement, but I wonder if the AI would be more dangerous with magic if they could crank out fireball mages right out of their cities

 

[onedreamer]

Yeah, I've been thinking along those lines, Goodgimp. The main problem though is that the magic users should be a brand new strategic category of units that Civ4 doesn't have... and I doubt FFH staff can do anything about this.

Another thing, if you want wars, besides that no requirements option, be sure to choose your opponents. I generally set up games with 3 good - 3 evil on standard maps, or 3 good, 2 netrual and 3 evil on large maps.

 

[Goodgimp]

Yeah, I've been thinking along those lines, Goodgimp. The main problem though is that the magic users should be a brand new strategic category of units that Civ4 doesn't have... and I doubt FFH staff can do anything about this.

Another thing, if you want wars, besides that no requirements option, be sure to choose your opponents. I generally set up games with 3 good - 3 evil on standard maps, or 3 good, 2 netrual and 3 evil on large maps.

That's a good idea, thank you.

 

[Humakty]

Two days ago I've seen a huge battle between Grigori and Malakim, there were no adepts in both armies, but Malakim AI had produced 5+ priests, and was burning Grigori's armie to cinders with them. They do surely use a spell if they can get a caster unit.

In all my games (I play on N-K 19 players map), there is at the very least one war going on,with massive stacks going from one point to another (sometimes crossing 30 squares to get to their ennemy...). So I don't think AI aggressivity should be increased.(aggressive AI turned on)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I expect that the Malakim World spell may also have been involved there (giving them a free priest of their state religion in every city, with +1 xp for each of there cities with the religion present)


The AI is pretty good at casting the spells when they are available, but it doesn't plan ahead to make them available. I'm guessing that without the spell they wouldn't have had a large enough force of priests or priests with enough xp to easily purchase the promotions the spells require.

The AI seems pretty good with priests and adepts, but less skilled with Mages/Archmages/Conjurers/Summoners/High Priests/ Inquisitors. I'm thinking the xp requirements hurt them more than human players. I have seen AI High priests pretty often, but they are usually just kept in cities and they rarely cast. Usually they have Combat promotions instead of their top tier spell sphere promotions. I was thinking that removing or lowering the level requirements for casters, but adding technologies as prerequisite for their spells (ex, no fire spells until elementalism, no enchantment spells before alteration, no summons until the Summoning tech, no top level summons until Ethereal Call, no sorcery spells until the Sorcery tech, no top level sorcery spells until Strength of Will, etc) might allow the AI to better build up armies of casters.

 

[Grey Fox]

-Magic: Does the AI understand how magic units are used (not including summoners, I've seen them summon all the time)? That is, does the AI know how to build an Adept, rank him up to a mage, and start tossing fireballs your way? Does the AI know to bring one along to an attack, similar to a catapult in vanilla civ?

They are better at it in Shadow, but they aren't very good at it yet. The basic is in there now though as the Magic system was totally reworked to make it easier for the AI to understand it. Now it just has to be improved. We will probably see most AI improvement in the later stages of Shadow and Ice.
They do use adept spells like Haste and Dance of Blades, and priest spells like Ring of Fire. Summons and fireballs if they have units with the spells.

-Techs: Does the AI prioritize techs? That's worded poorly, but what I mean is, you take some leaders in Vanilla civ, and they shoot for particular techs. Isabella, for instance, highly favors religious techs. Do Arcane leaders such as the Amurites favor magic techs, etc?

Somewhat. Some civs are forced to tech a certain way. Like Luchiurp always goes for Construction before anything else, Ljosalfar always for Way of the Leaves, etc. But it needs to be done better with Flavors etc so the AI research better according to the circumstances as well as according to its personality.

-War: Just a general question on AI aggressiveness and warmaking capability in FFH2. From my limited window of experience, the AI seems to be more docile than in vanilla civ, even with Aggressive AI turned on. Is this because of the larger "Years of Peace" diplo boost, or is my limited sample size too small and I have an incorrect perception?

I find the AI to be much more aggressive. But its also easier to become friends with some civs in this mod. Sharing the same religion and alignment can yield a great boost in diplomatic relations. Civics (especially for Cassiel with Pacifism) and Wonders also matter.
Doviello often does well in war when the AI plays them. As both Charadon and Mahala. I've seen them conquer half the continents really fast, and still be competetive techwise. Sandalphon vassalized almost the entire continent in my game story with the help of Basium. Etc

Also, fireballs. It seems once I get to the point where I can have a few fireball-tossing mages around, pretty much any defense liquifies before me. Is that other people's experience as well? Will the AI build anything (assassins, whatever) to counter the uber fire mage?

The AI does use Assassins and Shadows and I've often lost adepts, mages and Archmages to them. But I don't think they know beforehand that they are a good counter against mages, it's just that when they have happened to build them they are able to use them.

Also, I do not see the dreaded "Stacks of Doom" from the AI very much so far, compared to vanilla. Again, this could be limited experience on my part playing relatively peaceful games, so I"m hoping experienced players can shed some light

Here you got some stacks from my game story, which you can find in my signature if you are interested, where I am at war with the entire world at this point. The AI is using Haste also in this picture.

Spoiler :

-Final Question: What difficulty setting do you play vanilla civ on, and what difficulty setting do you play FFH2 on? Just curious!

Civ4, Monarch(for almost certain win), Emperor (for challenge)
FfH2, Emperor(for almost certain win), Immortal (for challenge)

 

[Tobbe_1]

I agree on the point, the the AI is using buff spells, but normally fails to use some fireballs as adepts and mages are usually promoted with combat II-V...

The Ai has tech preferences for sure, but i think they are a little bit messed up right now...I noticed that bronze working, smelting and iron working seem to be quite low on the AIs prefenrences list. It happend more than once, that no AI had developed bronze on turn 200, no smelting on turn 300...

The aggressiveness of the AI ist quite ok if you have different aligments and religions. If you dont have one of the religious preffering civs (like elves, dwarves) in the game, it sometimes happens that all the world follows one big religion...less war.

The AI uses assasins, but not very focussed.

The AI defintely uses SoDs and also brings quite some cats. It it knows how to use them! I lost several cities to these SoDs...

Difficulty:
BtS Monarch (normally succesfull), Emperor (quite challenging)

FfH2 without free AI buildings emperor (sure win), immortal (for challenge), deity (with unresticted leaders (e.g charismatic sidar, fin elves) and perfect settings (e.g elven arboria, dwarven highlands)

I just started to use the "No AI buldings" option. It seems to make emperor a little challenging, still have to check it on immortal...

 

[onedreamer]

Two days ago I've seen a huge battle between Grigori and Malakim, there were no adepts in both armies, but Malakim AI had produced 5+ priests, and was burning Grigori's armie to cinders with them. They do surely use a spell if they can get a caster unit.

Note what I said (in short): the AI knows how to use a spell, but only if it has the caster available. It will not actively pursue having the caster available. So in this case, yes Priests are the easiest casters to have for the AI.

 

[Von Evilstein]

In a huge map 16civ, Ljosalfar with the FoL holy city and Malakim with the Order holy city, 2 big empires with 10-15 city each, build near 20-30 disciples and priests (ussless?? They don't try to spread religion). When i see that, i close the border to preserve my city from their missionaries.

Btw, when I attack Malakim, he only defends with priest (lot of fire) and disciple (lot of carnage) first so I can take 3-4 city easly with few troups. After, he begins to build crusaders but it was to late, I take the Holy city to set the OO domination, niark niark

Have you ever see that?

So i decide to limit the dicsiples and the priest number (7 and 5) to improve artificialy the AI. Do you think it's a good idea.

 

[oyzar]

No the AI doesn't have a clue what they are doing and they fall like butter before meteors. I even had a deity AI prepare enough to declare war on me(about turn 135 or so) and i still lost a total of 1 warrior and 1 scout while he lost all his units(100+) and all his cities. I had 3 heroes(grigori) as well as 3 warriors 4 axemen and an adept + a scout when he declared.

-Final Question: What difficulty setting do you play vanilla civ on, and what difficulty setting do you play FFH2 on? Just curious!

Immortal/Deity in ffh and mostly emperor in vanilla.

 

[xienwolf]

Maybe after Ice there could be an often to allow all AI spell casters unrestricted access to the spell spheres so we can work out getting AI to use the proper spells at the proper time. Then later remove the need for mama nodes only and figure out how to set priority in selecting promotions. then finally work out Node build Preferences after those other two are refined.

 

[Goodgimp]

Speaking of the AI, wow.

So, I decide to start up another game of FFH2. I play the Amurites for the first time, Huge Terra map, 12 civs, Epic speed.

Man, Alexis just went on a tear!! By turn 250 (not that far in, for Epic speed games), she had vassalized 5 opponents and had a score that was quadruple mine. I had Open Borders with Cardith Lorda when she attacked him, and that was ugly. A stack full of massively upgraded vampires, horsemen, and a whole lotta skeletons to boot. Needless to say, Cardith capitulated very quickly.

At that point, she then turned her attention to me. Not only did I have the Stack of Doom approaching, but I also had small incursions from 3 other civs. I had mages in my capitol, but the AI separated out a pair of assassins, charged my city (can't remember who owned the assassin, but they had Raider and thus were using my roads), and annihilated them. My defenders fought valiantly but were quickly overwhelmed by Alexis' forces.

So, I have no idea what happened this game, but I just got my arse handed to me harder than I think I've ever seen in a Civ game, vanilla, mod, or otherwise.

Sheesh.

 

[onedreamer]

I had a similar game, Large map with Alexis having 2 vassals and Faeryl another 2. Thessa had been ganked by both, so I remained the only one indipendent (Sheaim). But I summoned Hyborem and switched to him. Luckily soon after Faeryl and Alexis declared war to each other.... I let you imagine the rest ^^
The AI CAN be surprising at times. I had a couple of losses myself with Shadow in the first matches where I was neglecting military.