Racist scenario?

[civconquer3000]

i just remembered seeing a scenario in the downloads in which "you're trapped in the US Embassy in Saudi Arabia" and then once you free yourself, you have to "destroy the muslims". i haven't downloaded it, but i don't think it takes place in a parallel universe in which Saudi Arabia is our arch enemy. Also, saying 'destroy the muslims' just doesn't seem right. the moderators should have seen it by now...

 

[McMonkey]

Was this a CivII scn?
Not the sort of thing we should be saying about our Muslim brothers! Thought CivII was all about peace and love...oh and world conquest

 

[Sark6354201]

How is "Destroy the Muslims" racist? In the context of the scenario, Muslims are your enemy. This is not some real life advocacy group saying "Destroy Muslims", it's a Civ2 scenario!

 

[LiquidNerve]

It sounds rather comical if you ask me. I agree with Sark in his comment about it being a civ2 scenario and nothing more.

Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an Iraqi campaign, Afghanistan or War on Terrorism (expansion of U.S hegemonic power) scenario. I've seen two out there but they leave a lot to be desired.

 

[McMonkey]

If you can't be politically incorrect in cyberspace with an anonymous pseudonym then whats the point eh!

Over at Apolyton Michael Daumen started a thread a while back with a view to starting an Iraq, post Invasion, project:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163539

Seems like a tricky project to tackle, especially as there is no end in sight in real life. Worth a try though. At least it would get people to think about the issues...oh wait, we have almost come full circle here

 

[LiquidNerve]

If you can't be politically incorrect in cyberspace with an anonymous pseudonym then whats the point eh!

Over at Apolyton Michael Daumen started a thread a while back with a view to starting an Iraq, post Invasion, project:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163539

Seems like a tricky project to tackle, especially as there is no end in sight in real life. Worth a try though. At least it would get people to think about the issues...oh wait, we have almost come full circle here

I've always entertained the thought of a scenario in which American forces limited their engagement and allowed a full fledged civil war to ensue in Iraq. given circumstances like the oil fields, sectarian divisions and endorsement by exterior entities i.e. Iran, Turkey or the US, namely as civ 2 'wonders' -each offering specific advantages associated with their agendas- would make an awesome scenario!

 

[Larklight]

Incidentally, saying kill the muslims cannot be racist, as Islam is a religion, not a race. Religion is optional, race is not.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I agree that its not racism at all. I agree that this is just a Civ game.

But I also agree that equal treatment must be considered if a scenario claims to kill all american, jew, japanese, indians or any other ethnic/cultural/religious group of people in a CIV game. Would it be treated equally?

I don't even know why I'm posting here... I usually prefer to play games since the beggining, without scenarios, prefering modifications instead.

I guess the red smiley atracted me to here.

 

[CSDanger]

LoL maybe the World War 2 scenario is racist too when you playing on axis site?

Anyway Civ 2 or the scenarios are not racist. Why should they be that? Only because of the victory conditions? I didn´t think so. Maybe I would play a normal game and I fully destroy the nation and I´m happy that I had beat them would I be then a racist? In other games (for example Counterstrike) you can play as a terrorist. But only you playing as a terrorist are you then really a real terrorist?

I think when anyone would make a racist scenario the admins wouldn´t do it on the site.

 

[rysmiel]

But I also agree that equal treatment must be considered if a scenario claims to kill all american, jew, japanese, indians or any other ethnic/cultural/religious group of people in a CIV game. Would it be treated equally?

Is a conquest victory not wiping out all members of all ethnicities other than your own, then ?

 

[Larklight]

Is a conquest victory not wiping out all members of all ethnicities other than your own, then ?

No- tis wiping out their civilisation. The actual people can continue to live on in my civilisation with their lives, liberty and property. Just their evil Governments fall. and a bit of collateral...

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

No- tis wiping out their civilisation. The actual people can continue to live on in my civilisation with their lives, liberty and property. Just their evil Governments fall. and a bit of collateral...

Exactly. Is not like your mission is to raze all their cities and eliminate all beings from a ethnical group.

 

[Larklight]

Exactly. Is not like your mission is to raze all their cities and eliminate all beings from a ethnical group.

Interesting victory condition for the National Socialists though...

 

[vikingSS]

racism!? also in this games? ok the whole world is becoming racist even on this not importang stuff! c'mon! racism is something else!

 

[Veni]

OK, tad post facto, but ... WTF?

True, religion is not a race, ergo c/ not be 'racist' per se.
BUT
the terms race, ethnicity, religion are social constructs
NOT biological givens*

In re the scenario:
Civ scenarios, and the civ series itself, are models of history, civilisation, culture, etc. which we game for the unspeakable thrills, giggles, delight & neglect of, um, ....

So, to create such a model, one draws from 'reality'; here, the designer's 'reality' is one which where she perceives 'Muslims' need to be destroyed. So it seems to me, and the only critique to the contrary on this post is "It's just a game". Eru Ilivatar raised a good question, though, which no one has yet answered. Would a scenario advising one to "Kill the Jews" receive a similar muted response?

While civconquer3000 was incorrect in his terminology, he was correct in his reasoning. A better term would be friggin' bigoted.

*see:
Song, Miri
2003 Choosing Ethnic Identity. Malden MA: Polity Press.

 

[Sark6354201]

OK, tad post facto, but ... WTF?

True, religion is not a race, ergo c/ not be 'racist' per se.
BUT
the terms race, ethnicity, religion are social constructs
NOT biological givens*

In re the scenario:
Civ scenarios, and the civ series itself, are models of history, civilisation, culture, etc. which we game for the unspeakable thrills, giggles, delight & neglect of, um, ....

So, to create such a model, one draws from 'reality'; here, the designer's 'reality' is one which where she perceives 'Muslims' need to be destroyed. So it seems to me, and the only critique to the contrary on this post is "It's just a game". Eru Ilivatar raised a good question, though, which no one has yet answered. Would a scenario advising one to "Kill the Jews" receive a similar muted response?

While civconquer3000 was incorrect in his terminology, he was correct in his reasoning. A better term would be friggin' bigoted.

*see:
Song, Miri
2003 Choosing Ethnic Identity. Malden MA: Polity Press.

What are you smoking? First of all, stop using so many commas and write sentences that actually flow well. Secondly, designing a scenario where you have to 'kill something' does not represent a real life desire for this to occur.

Look at it this way. If you were captured by Catholic French forces, and to escape you had to "kill the Catholic French", would this be racist? Of course not. If the scenario's premise was to merely kill Catholic French, then there would certainly be a problem.

 

[Larklight]

Indeed-

The ultimate disproof, or at least one, would be of a game that lets you choose sides. Choose whether to play as the East or the West. Both have the aim of the others destruction- if this is bigotted, which way is it so?

What of space-invaders? Does this lead us to desire to kill all annoying blobs?

Actually, civ inherantly presents you with an advasareal, zero-sum game view. Doies this imply the designers follow a marixts labour theory of value, or desire to kill everyone else? No.

At the end of the day, it is, just a game.

 

[Veni]

Um, yeah ...
Somewhere in my abundance of commas and falting style y'all missed my point:

I'm not saying the game leads to a desire to kill Muslims, but the other way around: it's a scenario where the designer thinks the folks trapping you in the compound are 'Muslim'. Calling dudes with towels wrapped around their heads brandishing kalishnikovs & trapping you in the US Saudi embassy 'Muslims' is wrong in so many ways; they're terrorists, mujah'hdeen, wahab'een, take your pick. It's like saying 'kill the atheists' when designing a Berlin blockade scenario when you might mean 'kill the commies'; or maybe 'kill the french catholics' when you might mean 'kill Napolean's troops' or the like ... at best, it's contextually inaccurate & off-base; at worst, it's repulsively ignorant. Aren't you fighting a 'war on terror' to spread democracy, human rights, civil liberties & the 'American Way'? Don't you know who your enemies are?

And "it's just a game"?? Ever see the little Nazi flip-book comic with jews being slapped around? Frickin hilarious, no? Just a comic book, nicht wahr?

I'm not trying to be preachy, it just really ticks me off that it's OK that no one else but civconquest3000 is calling this. That's nothing to do with being 'politically correct' or not ...

 

[McMonkey]

Which scenario were you referring to? It would be interesting to see it in context. I would imagine that the creator was just being careless with the way he worded the event rather than being intentionally racist, but without seeing the scenario its hard to say. I imagine the statement has more to do with ignorance of peoples sensibilities on such issues than an intention to offend. On the whole the Civ community seems to be a good hearted bunch and I don't recall speaking to many people with extreme views. Its good to discuss things like this openly but I would not read too much into it!

 

[Veni]

The particular scenario civconquest3000 was referring to is from the 'downloads' (not download db); it was posted 8 years ago. From the readme:

"defend and hold out against the rampaging Muslims for 15 turns ... you are ordered to destroy the Muslims in Saudi Arabia and restore peace."

Clearly wrong terminology, though I'd argue it reflects a gross mis-percetion of 'Muslims' in general. Which might be fine & dandy were it quaint, old-fashioned misunderstanding. It's not, though, because the United States is entangled in this nebulous CF, and yes, I have blood on my own hands because of it.

My issue, though, is less the original scenario, and more the null response in this thread. That's what I might be reading too much into; not the scn. I agree with you, Werd, that the Civ community here is a good-hearted bunch. I'd add that the average member is reasonably intelligent as well as historically & geographically aware. Which is why it irks me that civconquest3000's legitimate concern is sloughed off as "just a game" ...