Radical proposal to solve gameplay and instruction issues

[Hyronymus]

donsig, it looks like we have 3 things to discuss on MSN . I didn't plan this but after reading dutchfire's resignation I just happened to have this insight.

Currently we choose a gameplay session date + time and ask all officials to post their instructions before the planned gameplay session. This sometimes results in chaos because polls are created a little too late to be taken along the instructions for that gameplay session. This has now resulted in a few fierce battles between ego's and I don't think that's the way.

What I propose is a somewhat reversed order. Within 2 days after each gameplay session new instructions for the next gameplay session must be posted by all officials. Both officials and citizens may use this 2 day period for creating polls. After this 2 day period the DP announces the date + time for the gameplay session. The DP must take all the created polls into consideration, effectively meaning that the gameplay session may not start until all polls have closed.

In case of a legal dispute the DP may not announce the gameplay session until 24H after the Supreme Court's ruling.

 

[Provolution]

I wholeheartedly support this idea, and I think this is what we needed for a long time, and will save the game both now and later. I put full confidence in you and Donsig for handling this.

As one of the egos that have clashed in the "fierce battles" I more than recognize the need for fair, transparent and tidy rules. I am sorry for having stirred up the hornets nest, but the lethargy pointed out by DS a couple of months ago was a direct result of not having fair game rules.

One may put a lid on the conflict, but it is still a lid, not a fair facilitator for a solution. Organizing the TC week along the value chain is the first step, and then make a procedure for discussions, polling and instructions that is predictable and fair within the 4-5 days time.

I know the last days has provoked some antagonism, for that I am sorry. But what I am not sorry for, is the undoing of a rotten way of handling things, which has caused this game to be lead by 3-5 people and with a low participation rate.

I would dare to say it is not the conflict level that has put people off, but the informal power structures and lack of predictability of the TC week. At least that is a big incentive for the non-native speakers of English that understands much, but cannot play the meta-game as they would like, as some pointed out. With this reform, it will be less of a meta-game, and more of a ordered and clean type of succession game I get the impression many wants.

So, the priority now is to make a simple and transparent ruleset for the TC week everyone understands and are happy with.

 

[ordinaryguy]

Hmm... why not give a three day period?

1st day for the governor to access the save, plan and post instructions.

2nd day for the discussions to take place and amendments for instructions.

3rd day, final instructions (if any) are posted latest. Then the TC starts.

How's that sound?

 

[Hyronymus]

That sounds fine too, ordinaryguy. I don't think much longer would work well though. The DP must have some time to plan a gameplay session too and it would take too long in between gameplay sessions if we went for more than 3 days.

 

[Provolution]

I agree with both of you here. A 3-2 structure would make sense, and the protocol of handling things should be defined and timestamped.

For example, a certain time to be defined, TC-sensitive discussions should have ended and converted to concluded polls in due time.

We also need a way to make elections actually count, right now, is is just a badge and an official thread, but no real powers.

Citizens should have the right to present poll options like this

POLL OPTION, RESEARCH MONARCHY IN 8 TURNS

, and have it added to the options in the official poll. We also need to work on the labeling of discussions posted by officials, for example adding a hammer icon, which is a sort of semi-sticky. Officials should precede the official discussion heading with the "OFFICIAL" label (OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FOR TECH RESEARCH 1585-1660).

The more order and predictability we add, the easier it will be for newbees and to avoid conflict.

 

[Tanktunker]

That sounds like a great idea, I'd support that.

 

[Methos]

Hmm... why not give a three day period?

1st day for the governor to access the save, plan and post instructions.

2nd day for the discussions to take place and amendments for instructions.

3rd day, final instructions (if any) are posted latest. Then the TC starts.

How's that sound?

One, RL may not allow for the DP to play exactly three days later. Secondly, there's so much going on just game-wise that three days just isn't enough to iron it all out. Plus, by saying all discussions are done on the second day, you are removing the input from those who only have a select time period that they can get online. When you also take into account we have players from all over the world, not everyone can discuss it at the same time others can. This rule would affectively remove or limit a lot of our players from getting involved.

 

[Hyronymus]

I'm not sure that's something unique for this proposal, Methos. I believe that's something every solution will suffer from. We can of course wait for everybody but I think we are better of with a fair compromise.

 

[fed1943]

Great idea of yours, Hyronymus.

Just not forget to say where the instructions must be posted.

Best regards,

 

[Provolution]

I think 3 days between two TCs is too little. How about this:

Day 1. Report from TC posted along with save, discussion starts
Day 2. Every official posts tentative instructions with a discussion thread, also including suggested poll options
Day 3. Citizens posts their alternative poll options, all labeled in

POLL OPTION

format- All these options will serve as poll options
Day 4. 2 day poll is posted with only options presented in official discussions
Day 5. Poll ends and the sum of all instructions based on polls are amended in the instructions by the DP

In this way, we got a reliable flow.

 

[Hyronymus]

I think there's a little miscommunication now .

Right after a gameplay session there are 3 days for citizens and officials to discuss the next gameplay session. The DP then has ~4 days top announce the date + time for the next gameplay session. I suggest the gameplay session cannot be held any sooner than 24H after the announcement but not any later than 1 week after the announcement. All "extra time" that is created by the DP choosing a date is "bonus discussion time" for the citizens and officials.

I reckon the DP's are able to take ongoing discussions into consideration when picking the gameplay date. In other words: DP's should consider giving room for discussion when there is much discussion. On the other hand all citizens and officials should discuss more effectively: stick to facts and not your emotions.

 

[cassembler]

What about a set weekly schedule?

As a citizen, it would make my life a lot easier if I knew what day of the week polls open and close, and what day the session was played, etc. Some of us can only spend a little time on these forums, and that is time removed from Civ... It would be nice to know I need to vote every, say, Thursday and can see the progress on Mondays.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Of course, from what I can tell, a lot of things here get thought of at the last minute, etc. Obviously, provisions for last minute polls and proposals would have to be made...

 

[Provolution]

I 100 % agree on the weekly schedule, this is more or less what I proposed,

But some anarcho-liberal elements would not like to see this, as they want everything to be relative and fluid, and they do not care much for this predictability, due to the Designated Player Institute.

If they amended this DP institute to be a pool, where the first available volunteer that fit into the schedule should play the save, in place of making the entire nation accommodate that individual, it would be a more sane system.

I agree, we should have 4-5 turnchats per month, which is a good pace of progression (similar to what worked before), with room for a couple of 1 turn pre-turn chats. Right now, they expect 6 turnchats plus 1-turn pre-turnchats, which is too dense for one month.

They should scrap the Judiciary and rather emphasize a firm weekly schedule. The arbitration mechanism should be handled by a national leader, not a panel of politicized judges, who polls all disagreements. The coup mechanism should only be allowed for this national leader.
Governors and Warlords should have all freedoms in tile management, unit moves, war strategy, promotions and so on.

Scouting of new territory should still be polled on. Civics, wonders, great leaders, wars, razing of cities, building of new cities, naming of cities and research of technologies should all be polled. We need to divide what officials should do, and what the citizens can vote on, otherwise we do not need offices.

A proposal for a schedule could be (Turnchat Genesis):

Monday Discussion of save and first reports
Tuesday Discussion, creation of intelligence, research and presentation of strategies
Wednesday Pollable options are presented in official discussion threads
Thursday Polls are out for vote
Friday Polls and comments go on
Saturday Polls are in- instructions posted
Sunday turnchat is played (15 turns maximum allowed)

 

[ordinaryguy]

I wouldn't mind. Having when to log on to see when the TC ends saves me a lot of time. Plus it gives me more time to manage my aimag and produce better results, instead of rushing instructions to be in time for a TC.

 

[HUSch]

Governors and Warlords should have all freedoms in tile management, unit moves, war strategy, promotions and so on.

You wish a play for officials to do, what they think is good. Then the polls about names etc are nonsens. And about the polls about techs you know now something.

After one month the other are away or have other issues which are interesting for them like polls to make uproar. My wish: For every city a longtime plan which goals to reach and when and polls about.

 

[Provolution]

That is a great idea Husch, as that would make room for some interesting inter-city competition (each citizen a city) in making their cities stronger.

Well, Governors, Warlords and "Arch Priests" (the ones running the temples) should have freedoms to handle their cities, forces and clergy the way they see fit, but poll bigger objectives. Their freedom of decision should be the citizens reward to the officials for doing the tedious work of reporting, and writing summaries and so on.

 

[Hyronymus]

Your idea would speed-up the game, Husch. The downside though is that it takes much of the democracy of the DEMOgame.

The weekly schedule is a good idea but then I do think we need to step aside from a fixed order of DP's. I can already foresee the event where a DP has no time to play the week (s)he should. If we choose DP's the old way but let them order their gameplay sessions amongst each other we can make sure the elected DP's can and will play on the scheduled date.

 

[Provolution]

The DP Institute needs to be changed. Right now, everyone needs to appease to their chosen playtime, where it should be the other way around.
Fixed dates would solve this, and if these could not play that particular date, shame for them. We should also make it possible to replace a DP that does not show up, within 15 minutes of announced turnchat.

 

[grant2004]

Would you rather have a scheduled TC which nobody is available to actually play, or a delay of a few days waiting for a DP who's looked at the save and prepared for the session?

Setting a fixed day of the week for all turnchats will surely eliminate some players from the DP pool, people who have regular events on that day which will prevent them from participating, that's not something we want.

I'm not sure about these proposals because they fix certain actions to certain days, that does not work in a complex and changing game like this. What happens when something fails and a poll isn't posted on the assigned day, is it illegal to post that poll later? What if an issue isn't brought up on the assigned discussion day? Is that issue not discussed or do we skip some of the steps for creating poll options so that a poll on it can be posted 'on time'?

You can't expect people to commit to a solid schedule like this for a game, there are certain to be real life issues which will prevent people from doing things on the required days, I'm sure all of you have had a few days when you weren't able to check the DG, under this system you'd loose your ability to discuss issues, post polls, or fulfill the duties of your office on those days.

All we really need to do to correct the current problem is to clearly state that all polls relevant to a game play session close at the start of that session. DPs would be required to post a screenshot of the poll results at the time they are starting the session.

 

[Provolution]

The scedule can be semi-fixed, that the game has to be played in a window of 2 or 3 at maximum days and properly reported in a good summary. A DP not capable of delivering that with a good periods notice is not worth it in my opinion. We should also have back-up players that can step in, in case the DP is hindered for any reason.

I am sure several players here look at the save, and are more or less to take on the session, and DPs are in my book not that sacred, that everyone has to wait and crawl for them. If they cannot play those 2-3 days, then they should probably do something else, not waste peoples time.

Yes, the polls should be in, and it should be illegal to post polls later for that particular game-session. If people cannot schedule or organize themselves, they shouldn't be a DP. If something extraordinary happens in-game, we could of course make an exception, and delay the schedule for 2-3 days, but then the entire schedule will move along with it.

We have played without difficult DPs before, when we had the Chieftain/President to be DP alone for a month, with ministers making up a chain of command to take over, that worked excellently. The DP institute is not that holy to make the entire demogame unpredictable for most of us.
I know this is controversial, but some of us are not happy with this chaos.

The problem needs to be fixed in a much more profound way, not merely patched.