Rail upgrade

[ritchyq]

I'm not sure where to report any issues - first thanks for the amazing work on this mod. My workers don't upgrade my roads to rails automatically when i discover the railroad tech - (apart from my home island - play as England). Bit of a pain having to do all of it manually.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I'm not sure where to report any issues - first thanks for the amazing work on this mod. My workers don't upgrade my roads to rails automatically when i discover the railroad tech - (apart from my home island - play as England). Bit of a pain having to do all of it manually.

The reason is that railroad no longer are a no-brainer :

The +25% prod is no longer automatic and was move to the train station (or seaport), and those building need coal.
So if you don't have enougth coal (which is usually the case if your not russia and take freedom or order), railroad may not worth the maintenance.

(It is still usefull, but less a no-brainer)

 

[wobuffet]

Not sure if this helps, but railroads cost more than roads and are not needed for the production boost in coastal cities.

 

[Edaka]

Does anybody know if railroads still provide a lesser movement bonus in the beginning than that of tech-boosted roads? If I remember correctly, replacing roads with railroads right off the bat for the sake of movement speed wasn't worth it, because in CBO they provided a lesser bonus (until you got techs later on that boosted it). Still, the upgrade was justified thanks to the 25% production bonus. Now that railroads don't provide it by themselves and aren't even required to get seaports, perhaps we could see a movement speed bonus increase?

 

[Gazebo]

Does anybody know if railroads still provide a lesser movement bonus in the beginning than that of tech-boosted roads? If I remember correctly, replacing roads with railroads right off the bat for the sake of movement speed wasn't worth it, because in CBO they provided a lesser bonus (until you got techs later on that boosted it). Still, the upgrade was justified thanks to the 25% production bonus. Now that railroads don't provide it by themselves and aren't even required to get seaports, perhaps we could see a movement speed bonus increase?

They're required for train stations, though.

G

 

[Edaka]

They're required for train stations, though.

G

That's ttue, but even when put that way railroads just don't feel nearly as impactful as before. I'll think twice before upgrading regular roads to them now, because won't even always be able to afford train stations, with coal being such a high demand strategic resource and all. And without train stations railroads start off slower and twice as expensive roads. That's how I feel, anyway.

 

[Funak]

The reason is that railroad no longer are a no-brainer :

The +25% prod is no longer automatic and was move to the train station (or seaport), and those building need coal.
So if you don't have enougth coal (which is usually the case if your not russia and take freedom or order), railroad may not worth the maintenance.

(It is still usefull, but less a no-brainer)

Honestly, the movement advantage still makes railroad a no-brainer, especially considering how cheap they are.

 

[Edaka]

Honestly, the movement advantage still makes railroad a no-brainer, especially considering how cheap they are.

They're literally twice as expensive as normal roads, though. The difference is fairly tangible when you run a large empire. Also, as I've mentioned above, railroads aren't immediately faster than roads (unless I'm actually mistaken). This creates hypothetical situations when you're better off delaying railroads up until you get enough coal for train stations or you research a speed boost for railroads. Thinking about it, that's unlikely something the AI normally plans.

 

[Funak]

They're literally twice as expensive as normal roads, though. The difference is fairly tangible when you run a large empire. Also, as I've mentioned above, railroads aren't immediately faster than roads (unless I'm actually mistaken). This creates hypothetical situations when you're better off delaying railroads up until you get enough coal for train stations or you research a speed boost for railroads. Thinking about it, that's unlikely something the AI normally plans.

I think they are slightly faster than normal roads right when you get access to them (not a massive change, but something), and eventually they get twice as fast as normal roads (afaik). And while they are twice as expensive as normal roads, 2gpt in the industrial era is nothing compared to 1gpt in ancient/classical era so they are relatively cheap.

 

[tu_79]

I think they are slightly faster than normal roads right when you get access to them (not a massive change, but something), and eventually they get twice as fast as normal roads (afaik). And while they are twice as expensive as normal roads, 2gpt in the industrial era is nothing compared to 1gpt in ancient/classical era so they are relatively cheap.

Agree.

And then I only upgrade to railroads between important cities. I still leave them as simple roads when they are just tactical routes for my units (to chase barbs or allow for faster worker movement).

 

[Edaka]

Just checked - freshly researched railroad consumes 0,5 movement points per move, while a road at that point consumes 0,42 movement points. This means you can move 4 tiles with a regular 2-move units on a railroad, but 5 tiles on a road. So no, railroads aren't slightly faster than normal roads when you get access to them. That makes them look kinda bad.

 

[Funak]

Just checked - freshly researched railroad consumes 0,5 movement points per move, while a road at that point consumes 0,42 movement points. This means you can move 4 tiles with a regular 2-move units on a railroad, but 5 tiles on a road. So no, railroads aren't slightly faster than normal roads when you get access to them. That makes them look kinda bad.

I'm fairly certain it used to be the other way around.
That does sounds like a bug, and should probably be reported as such.

 

[Gazebo]

Just checked - freshly researched railroad consumes 0,5 movement points per move, while a road at that point consumes 0,42 movement points. This means you can move 4 tiles with a regular 2-move units on a railroad, but 5 tiles on a road. So no, railroads aren't slightly faster than normal roads when you get access to them. That makes them look kinda bad.

It is intentional that rails are not a major speed increase right off the bat.

G

 

[Funak]

It is intentional that rails are not a major speed increase right off the bat.

Well, but from what he said they are a speed decrease, which sounds wrong.

 

[tu_79]

Well, but from what he said they are a speed decrease, which sounds wrong.

Yep. First trains may have been slower than horses, but not slower than a marching army.

 

[Edaka]

Yep. First trains may have been slower than horses, but not slower than a marching army.

While that may be historically accurate, there should also be a gameplay reason for it. Their redemption used to be the 25% production bonus, but now that railroads aren't even required for that (seaports), their value has diminished.

And we're back to the beginning of the discssion.

 

[wobuffet]

I like that whether or not to build railroads (and/or upgrade roads to railroads) are more strategically interesting decisions now, but I think the current situation may not be favorable enough for railroads.

A related issue is that Seaports are far too strong: they have the same hammer cost and give the same +25% bonus as Train Stations, but don't require a railroad connection, plus Seaports provide +21 to Sea Resources and +11 to Coast/Ocean tiles to boot. Train Stations may as well not even be an option to build in coastal cities.

How about this?

• -10% from Train Stations (i.e., from 25% to 15%)
• remove % bonus from Seaports (i.e., from 25% to 0%)
• +10% for Railroad connections (regardless of Train Station/Seaport status)
• each Train Station provides +3% from City Connections empire-wide (or in all cities with a Train Station)

, where the last change is a wide-empire bonus for completing railroad connections to many cities, which seems only thematically appropriate: a rail network connecting up 8 cities is exponentially more useful than one connecting 4 cities, after all.

This way, you'd have to really think about whether a Seaport or Train Station would be better in a given coastal city, and the same for whether or not building a railroad connection to a given city would be worth it. For example, a coastal city working lots of water tiles might prefer the Seaport, but if you had a wide enough empire – or if you'd prefer more gold over more production – the Train Station might be a better choice.

 

[BenchBreaker]

wasn't railroad maintenance increased to 3 in CBP, that just make them even weaker

 

[Zanteogo]

I like the fact that with CPP rails arn't a no brainer. In wide empries your better off just having a main line down the middle of your empire contecting your best cities have leaving the rest roads.

Seaports, because they have been brought up, are pretty damn powerful. I think probally too much.

 

[veljaaa]

I know it's not a bug, but I think railroads should definitely not be slower than roads.

They should at least be the same so it's worth it to start building them right away if you have spare workers. The way it is now, if you replace your roads with railroads right away, you're reducing the mobility of your units and paying double the maintenance.