rail's corner

[QES]

What mechanics do helicopters from Civ use to simulate their ability to fly? As far as I remember its just a flat movement cost. If so we already have several units in FfH that fly.

I see flat movement cost and wings for the art as enough to convince me the creatures fly .

THere were fantasy mods for Civ2 - which i loved - and all of those units that could "fly" did so using a mechanic of "cant attack me" or for the helicopter units, it was assumed that the units landed.

For me, flying units would not need to be any more complex than a flat movement rate (like you said), and the ability to cross water and "impassable" terrain. Slap wings on the art and your good to go.

Flavor excuses can be made for why units cannot "fly over" others - just as why assassins and shadows cannot go through tiles occupied by enemey forces without attacking.

Also - the Paradrop function is another fun tool for use of either "teleportation" or flight. At least from Civ2. I know that Im treating this older incarnation with perhaps undue reverance (Zones of control) but I really did have a lot of fun with it.

The 3 possible mechanics I think that wouldnt be horrible for FFH2 would be realatively simple to implement:

Spoiler :

Helicopter flight - Fixed movement rates that cannot be adjusted by roads or other "movement" bonuses; the ability to fly "over" impassable terrain; the ability to fly over water. You add something like -50% against ranged units. And your good to go.

Civ2 Fighter/Bomber Flight - Use this for epic flying creatures. Like - floating cities, or airships (if you like). Specifically, things that stay in the air for LONG periods of time. Essentially make only flying units able to attack these, and require that they revisit cities once and a while. Yes, they can effectively pinch off a tile from movement, as non-flyers couldnt enter the space to attack - but if these are made either into national, world or increadibly expensive units - I dont see a problem. - Make them vulnerable to attack like ships in a harbor when they're in cities so that they dont make invincable cities and your good to go.

Paradrop - This can be used for either teleporting spells or for "temporary" flight for creatures. I love the idea of a spell sphere getting "flight" which would allow a unit to paradrop from their current location to another x squares away. Lots of fun to be had with that. Perhaps it'd also allow the unit to fight flyers with greater effeciency or something.

I know its not perfect - and I know that the vanilla civ system of flight - while more historically accurate cannot suit the needs of a fantasy mod. This is why if we turn to older incarnations of civ - we can find I think, more managable versions.

Another option, that may be at hand - is to give a unit a "non-combat" quality. In this, all flyers are non-combat units. But when they occupy a square with an enemy they'll have an option (read: button) that is effectively an "attack button". Like "build a farm" is a button for a worker. They'll attack the stack as though they'd entered it. If they dont do this - couldn't they pass right through? This was your origional hope. I know.

And I recognize that the main issue here - is that the AI wouldnt understand this very easily - but I'm not sure how the AI works, so i cant give conjecture.

I'd be content with "pretend" flight. But I understand that something worth doing is somethign worth doing well, and I'm content to pine away.
-Qes

EDIT: Question - what units currently employ the helicopter movement? Do i just not use them? Or have never noticed them before?

 

[Kael]

EDIT: Question - what units currently employ the helicopter movement? Do i just not use them? Or have never noticed them before?

A fireball has a flat movement cost.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Doesn't the Griffon summon act similarly?

 

[Kael]

Doesn't the Griffon summon act similarly?

Yeap, griffons have a flat movement cost.

 

[QES]

A fireball has a flat movement cost.

Then I would argue - that yes, the fireball is a flying unit.

Actually I think I've always thought of it as a flying unit - see how wonderful this could work?
The fact that the griffin is similar is good enough.

Now I know that "more" does not equal "better".

I must admit however, that I druel at the possibility of a new technology branch (mid/late game) that branches off of the cavalry branch. Each civ could have stronger and weaker flying capasities. The best way to work this would be to implement an "alliance" branch of the tech tree. Each civ would have natural "flying creatures/monsters" that they ally with and grant them access to air units.

Fire balls and summoned griffin's are great - but lets open her up for the complete joys of flight .
-Qes

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Such as Dragons, Roks, Griffons, Harpies, LOTR Style flying beasts, giant bats... i'm suer more could be made of this.

 

[eerr]

quasi flying- helichopter movement with paradrop to cross the water would be nice-but i don't think the ai will understand how it should work(i'm sure this could be coded-it would just be hard)
or be translated in some way
(so the ai can read paradrops over water like 2+ movement, with movement being drained right before a paradrop it doesn't have the room to make, as if moving into a forested hilltop or something)

 

[QES]

Each mechanic i was thinking of as a seperate implementation for flight. Not combinations. Besides, helicopters can traverse water already - right? Don't recall using them (wow I've not played vanilla in a long while).

Still - even a unit with merely wings on it - to me is a flying unit.
I for one welcome our new flying overlords and welcome their immenant rule over the masses.
-Qes

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I for one welcome our new flying overlords and welcome their immenant rule over the masses.
-Qes

Reference to Arthur C. Clarke? or not... he does have a few stories/novels about this...

 

[loki1232]

I don't beleive that vanilla civ4 heli's can traverse water. At least the manual says they can't.

 

[Kael]

I don't beleive that vanilla civ4 heli's can traverse water. At least the manual says they can't.

They can't.

 

[QES]

Well, we just add that little "waterwalking" quality that you boys have so brilliantly concocted and poof! I mean fireballs cross water - I maintain that now that I think on this - there are already FLYING units. Let us just flush them all out and bring them to the forefront of this opus.
-Qes

 

[QES]

Reference to Arthur C. Clarke? or not... he does have a few stories/novels about this...

I was actually thinking of Kent Brockman welcoming the new Ant Overlords, when Homer Simpson went into space - but I suppose indirectly I still was.
-Qes

 

[eerr]

Well, we just add that little "waterwalking" quality that you boys have so brilliantly concocted and poof! I mean fireballs cross water - I maintain that now that I think on this - there are already FLYING units. Let us just flush them all out and bring them to the forefront of this opus.
-Qes

the problem is that-can griffons and other flyers land(end thier turn) on water?- if so, then they become just like water walking units with a set movement untill we implement flying "over" non-friendly units, and the only exception would be peaks(which aren't that great anyway)
(fireballs"never" have to deal with this , as they are destroyed after use)

so don't count your chickens before they hatch...

 

[QES]

the problem is that-can griffons and other flyers land(end thier turn) on water?- if so, then they become just like water walking units with a set movement untill we implement flying "over" non-friendly units, and the only exception would be peaks(which aren't that great anyway)
(fireballs"never" have to deal with this , as they are destroyed after use)

so don't count your chickens before they hatch...

eerr... good point (pun intended...enjoy that doosey)

What if for flying units (units with flying promotion) they move like a fireball, but are instantly destroyed if they end their turn in water? And then just make that VERY CLEAR in the pedia entry. Perhaps also the technology that allows the building of the uints, or the prerequisite building - as long as its clear, it'll be fine.

And then just get the AI to treat it like its an avoidable terrain - it does that fairly well already.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

no, if they end their turn on water, you do "FindClearPot" instead, so they end on the nearest piece of land, maybe doing some damage (like they had to recklessly go without sleep to get to land)

 

[QES]

no, if they end their turn on water, you do "FindClearPot" instead, so they end on the nearest piece of land, maybe doing some damage (like they had to recklessly go without sleep to get to land)

I always have found your ideas to be particularly tasty, my dear lady. And you continue to prove why.

I wonder - could this damage be associated to how "far" the emergency flight took? And if its a % basis, could there be a "too far" which would produce a 100% damage - thereby killing the unit? I see it being an easy 25% per tile away, anything 4 spaces or farther away from an "end tile" would result in death for all units who couldn't find land "quickly enough".
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, they can only get so far away with the movement points they're given.

 

[Sureshot]

unless they were on a little island in the middle of an ocean and then someone tsunamied the island!

 

[MayNilad Man]

Wow. This thread has just become an example of 'how to hijack a thread.'

Let's get back to the ideas of Rail, please, and open up a new thread for flyers.