Rallying call for all interested: Colonisation of the Moon mod!

[woodelf]

Well, so the stuff I was talking about throwing away before were building and tech defines from vanilla civ4 we have logically disconnected from the mod, but still ahve in the xml files, making them bloated and unnecessarily more confusing.

As for gutting vs. starting over, I'd be inclined to keep most of our current files. The Python stuff is mostly modularized to be able to handle any changes, and I have plans to abstract out the rest. Not to mention I've made some recent discoveries that require I rework some things anyway, so...

But I digress. If I were going to scrap anything it would be our tech tree (sorry to say ). We have a lot of good tech ideas in it, but also some bad ones, and they are in a sort of random order. We basically have two options in this respect. We can either incrementally change what we have and feel our way towards a mod we're happier with, or we can "sit down" and plan out a new tech tree from scratch, fully populated with untis and buildings, etc. and then build it out. I can't see doing the second without some sort of input from matt and D^2. Beyond that, I have misgivings, in that, while we are incrementally modding the existing files, we're still, in theory, following JBG's plan. Once we toss out the tech tree, and rework all the buildings and units (and civics), we'll have basically abandoned JBG's mod design in favor of a new one. I'm not saying we don't need to do it, at some point, I'm just saying it feels a bit like a hijacking, and makes me feel uneasy :/.

That's why I offered the starting over option. With new techs, new civics, some religion (ideology), and new ideas we basically already would have a new mod. Actually other than the civs, civics, and early techs we already have abandoned most of JBGs plan. I think it's morphed into an unorganized hodge-podge and we might need drastic measures to get organized.

For example, the rockets. When I followed the Bible that was a 4th era tech. Does it make sense the way we've headed? Not really. Also, we never figured out what techs needed to be relearned once we got there and what would happen with Isolation. I think we'd do better the 2nd time around, but it's hard to say how much each of us has left in the tank to start from scratch...

 

[woodelf]

BTW, I have changed the engineers to speed 1 (and done a few other things). I want to change/add a lunar rover unit which is speed ?3? that can carry 1 or maybe 2 special_unit_people units. What do you think? Not sure why I'm asking you about this and not some of my other mods, but.. Oh, right, because it involves models and the silly oversized manned rover model 8).

Yeah, I was thinking the colony pods would drop down to 1 as well. The only reason I made everything 3 was so they could run from barbs. If we nerf barbs then I have no problem with slow civilians.

Once smitty gets back from Spring Break hopefully he can remove the men from the lunar rover or maybe as Geo suggested I can ask Rabbit to put helmets on them as well...

 

[GeoModder]

Lunacy taking over Song of the Moon?

Just teasing, never mind.

Sofar, I've only play(tested) through the first -and parts of the second era. I must admit, on the techtree it does feel a bit bloated.

On the ideas from your friend, Belizan that solar plant (and whole power chapter) sounds great. Imagine that a base it's own power grid (culture border) only extends to its own plot and perhaps the adjacent ones, and that a solar plant has a power area of 9 plots (the improvement itself and all adjacent plots. But that could give AI issues again on civs not knowing how to get it.

 

[Belizan]

Ok (re: colonists and models).

Yeah, the tech tree is a mess. For "friday's" release, let's stick to an incremental adjustment.

Personally, as "The Python Guy", assuming that remains my sole area of (real) responsilbity, starting over won't effect me much. That's what the config.py file is all about. Honestly, I've been surprised I haven't seen people stealing more of my implementation. We've solved in our mod a lot of problems that other people have been trying to solve, although I suppose I've posted in bits and pieces those solutions in various threads.

If we are going to start over from scratch, we should reconfirm and recommit the team, so that everyone can be on board from the beginning, and we can get our ideas together all at once. I think a redesign should really involve a properly specced out tech tree with all the associated buildings, units, resources, civics and ideologies from the beginning. Not to say that we won't change them once we get to playing with them, but the more we can take into account when crafting our new design, the better.

If we decide to go this route, I still think there is a point to doing some more incremental mods to this version. We ahve a lot of ideas, and we're going to want to test them out. We can use this version as a test bed for seeing how some of our ideas will pan out, so we can better understand what their impact will be in our redesign. So in that respect, we might want to start doing a dual development cycle. Working on the new design, while at the same time, adding in new features we come up with for the new design into the existing design to see how they work, and how they effect gameplay.

What do you think?

 

[GeoModder]

On the mod in general, what are infact the goals?
Does it need to be the same concept as Civ4 itself? Standing the test of time? Or could you "just" made it as an inbetween stage of putting humanity back on its feet after Earth's cataclysm before it moves on to the stars or another planet?
In the latter case there's not that much need for futuristic hightech, and it limits the need for hightech units as well.
As it is now, lunar marines and pistolman are outdated in a too short timeframe. With some proper redistribution of units alot further could be come with the existing new models.

 

[Belizan]

Lunacy taking over Song of the Moon?

Just teasing, never mind.

Sofar, I've only play(tested) through the first -and parts of the second era. I must admit, on the techtree it does feel a bit bloated.

On the ideas from your friend, Belizan that solar plant (and whole power chapter) sounds great. Imagine that a base it's own power grid (culture border) only extends to its own plot and perhaps the adjacent ones, and that a solar plant has a power area of 9 plots (the improvement itself and all adjacent plots. But that could give AI issues again on civs not knowing how to get it.

Yeah, we'd have to test out how the AI dealt with a flat culture model. One thing is that if we make all the culture producing buidlings also do other things, the AI will build them.

As for the improvements. Well, I have a lot of wonders about that. I've written about half of sthe code for salvage--the idea that when a mechanical unit "dies" in combat or more commonly to terrain attrition, it leaves behind a salvageable wreck (improvement) where it "died". Such an improvement can be cleared by an engineer type unit providing your faction with gold, some research towards that unit's tech, a "salvage" unit which can be used to hurry production or even the unit that was lost at 10% health. My concern is that I really don't know how well the AI will react to the system. I'll just ahve to finish it and find out.

 

[Belizan]

On the mod in general, what are infact the goals?
Does it need to be the same concept as Civ4 itself? Standing the test of time? Or could you "just" made it as an inbetween stage of putting humanity back on its feet after Earth's cataclysm before it moves on to the stars or another planet?
In the latter case there's not that much need for futuristic hightech, and it limits the need for hightech units as well.
As it is now, lunar marines and pistolman are outdated in a too short timeframe. With some proper redistribution of units alot further could be come with the existing new models.

I think the goal is to more realistically model the challenges of colonizing the moon, both in terms of technologies, buildings and units, while at the same time creating a game with a more dynamic and distinctive style of play. Personally, I can't really envision realistic military actions on the moon of any scale during what the first era represents to me. :/

 

[woodelf]

Ok (re: colonists and models).

Yeah, the tech tree is a mess. For "friday's" release, let's stick to an incremental adjustment.

Personally, as "The Python Guy", assuming that remains my sole area of (real) responsilbity, starting over won't effect me much. That's what the config.py file is all about. Honestly, I've been surprised I haven't seen people stealing more of my implementation. We've solved in our mod a lot of problems that other people have been trying to solve, although I suppose I've posted in bits and pieces those solutions in various threads.

If we are going to start over from scratch, we should reconfirm and recommit the team, so that everyone can be on board from the beginning, and we can get our ideas together all at once. I think a redesign should really involve a properly specced out tech tree with all the associated buildings, units, resources, civics and ideologies from the beginning. Not to say that we won't change them once we get to playing with them, but the more we can take into account when crafting our new design, the better.

If we decide to go this route, I still think there is a point to doing some more incremental mods to this version. We ahve a lot of ideas, and we're going to want to test them out. We can use this version as a test bed for seeing how some of our ideas will pan out, so we can better understand what their impact will be in our redesign. So in that respect, we might want to start doing a dual development cycle. Working on the new design, while at the same time, adding in new features we come up with for the new design into the existing design to see how they work, and how they effect gameplay.

What do you think?

I like everything you said. What we need is someone from the outside (be it your friend or Lunargent) to tell us what the techs should be, at least to begin with. We can branch out later, but we need an expert to tell us what we'd need to focus on first. We then need to decide how we want the Isolation trigger to happen (between 1st/2nd era?).

We have a very good foundation of units, buildings, and resources/improvements to build upon. They just need to be tied together better. That comes from the techs....

I like the idea of using the old version as a test bed for ideas and gameplay, but at the same time we can be planning a new, better model.

We definitely need a new Rallying Call! Should we open it up to anyone who wants to help or simply try to reel d^2 back in and wait on Matt? Are you and your friend up to a dual guiding council?

 

[woodelf]

We need to seriously map out the eras:

1 - Colonization: Sending He3 back to the greedy Earth. Improving the colonies and making people feel at home is limited. Warfare, ect also limited. My only concern is if we drag the 1st era on it will be boring. Maybe this will be a tiny era? They don't have to be the same length.
2 - Survival: Cut off from Earth. Ideologies, religions crop up. Warfare is born. Science comes to the forefront. People eventually settle into normalcy.
3 - Expansion: settlers can finally be produced?
4 - ??????
5 - ??????
6 - ??????

Any ideas?

 

[Belizan]

I'll have to ask him tomorrow. Luna Argent also said he woudl try to look over a tech tree. Hopefully he'll get the chance to soon (or finish, in the event he's already started), so we can blend the two sets of ideas together in a fashion that makes sense.

Another thing that either one of us could do would be to go through all our posts to date and just cut and paste all the suggestions we've gotten for buildings and wonders and things to make a giant sandbox. And by this I mean the ones we don't currently have in the mod already. In that respect you might be a little more able then I am, but I can do it if you don't want to--just have to wait until I'm done tweaking the XML, and probably finishing my current set of irons.

Before we start a new thread, since I recall JBG said he got some hate mail from the moderators for that sort of thing, we might want to check in with them, first. I'm pretty relaxed about who we add to the team, so long as all the currently existant members who still want to be involved are cool with it. Personally, anyone who is capable and willing to spend time and effort to make this mod a reality is a great addition. There is always lots of work to do.

 

[Belizan]

Colonization (/& Adaptation)
Survival (/ & Adaptation)
Adapatation (The amount of time you spend in era 3 depends on how well you've done in era 1 & 2)
Expansion
Reconnection
Independence...

Or some rearrangement of that. I have to resist the temptation to use my Lunacy layout, which, obviously, I quite liked 8). The entire Lunacy aspect of it would be an option you could pick in the starting map options. Heck we could introduce other "game changing" options, like your alien bacteria option as a starting map option, and let people pick their poison, or have it be random, and be surprised. That could be quite cool actually.

 

[Belizan]

continuing from Independence, which I might call Sovereignty instead,
Dominance
Diaspora

(as the final era)...

 

[Belizan]

Other game changing options.. Laze the Earth.. Laze the Moon... Nuclear Armageddon (rather then a reconnection (need a better word for that) phase, earth destroys itself and the moon represents mans last hope for survival).

 

[Belizan]

Or reverse lunacy. Earth-bound Plague or worse, some sort of Earth-bound cult. Or some sort of more believable Neo-Nazi cult wins World War III. Lots of things we could play with on that scale. Yum.

Evolution--Extended generations on the Moon trigger a new stage in human evolution. Who will survive? The Sapiens or the Selunites. Homo Selunus.. hrmm.. my latin is really nonexistant. Well, I have a book if it comes to that.

 

[woodelf]

I'll have to ask him tomorrow. Luna Argent also said he woudl try to look over a tech tree. Hopefully he'll get the chance to soon (or finish, in the event he's already started), so we can blend the two sets of ideas together in a fashion that makes sense.

Another thing that either one of us could do would be to go through all our posts to date and just cut and paste all the suggestions we've gotten for buildings and wonders and things to make a giant sandbox. And by this I mean the ones we don't currently have in the mod already. In that respect you might be a little more able then I am, but I can do it if you don't want to--just have to wait until I'm done tweaking the XML, and probably finishing my current set of irons.

Before we start a new thread, since I recall JBG said he got some hate mail from the moderators for that sort of thing, we might want to check in with them, first. I'm pretty relaxed about who we add to the team, so long as all the currently existant members who still want to be involved are cool with it. Personally, anyone who is capable and willing to spend time and effort to make this mod a reality is a great addition. There is always lots of work to do.

I'll PM Lunargent and see what he's done if anything. Damn Kael and FfH are tying up his time!

I have a fairly good file at home on what buildings and Wonders have been suggested over the last few months. I'll go through the posts again and do some additions.

I think I'll send out a few PMs to people who've shown interest in the mod and not do a blanket invite. Or people can read this and PM me if they're interested. We have a ton of the hard work done....we just need the tech tree to make sense and tie everything together....

 

[woodelf]

Or reverse lunacy. Earth-bound Plague or worse, some sort of Earth-bound cult. Or some sort of more believable Neo-Nazi cult wins World War III. Lots of things we could play with on that scale. Yum.

Evolution--Extended generations on the Moon trigger a new stage in human evolution. Who will survive? The Sapiens or the Selunites. Homo Selunus.. hrmm.. my latin is really nonexistant. Well, I have a book if it comes to that.

Are these initial start up game options, random python events, or simply ravings from someone who needs sleep?

I have no problem with events where another civ/cult/group lands on the Moon after the isolation somehow. Or that we eventually need to repel Eathians who are carrying plague or want to conquer us. Tons of options for AFTER we get the tech tree!

We simply need the first few techs and the rest will fall like dominoes....or our advisor can tell us when our dominoes are getting out of whack.

 

[GeoModder]

Isolation surely should be an event, not a technology. With this it will suddenly happen and it won't drag on if its coded to happen randomly between turn this and that.
Growth should be limited as well in the He³ era. A little food from earth for commerce, new units coming in with commerce caps reached. First Era could concentrate on solely making a marginally better infrastructure for your base(s), and perhaps none or very limited unit production (it all comes in through commerce). Basic improvements like He³ extractor and mining of a few metal resources. All a bit more advanced unit production should require a resource, certainly for tracked units. Don't know what materials should be required for spacesuits
For instance facilities that improve chances of unit influx could be a landingpad -and increasing commerce output, stressing the need of good contacts with Earth for expanding your bases. Salvaging parts from old Apollo -and other moonlanding objects could give a player a half finished unit in his building queue. It's up to him to use it or let it decay there.

 

[GeoModder]

Darn, I'm getting sucked in again.

 

[woodelf]

Darn, I'm getting sucked in again.

Good, we need people who can be sucked in. I hate posting to myself!

 

[Belizan]

Well, I still have a lot of "hard" work to do.

I finished unit surrenders today, but I still have about half done...
Random Events
Supply Routes
Display capabilities for Supply Routes and resource-dependent buildings
Salvage

Then I also have to...
Rework the OnBeginPlayerTurn/OnEndPlayerTurn routines...
Modularize Unit-Linked Improvements and Temp Promotion Generating units and improvements...

Then I get into new stuff...
Old World Immigration
New Goody Types -- Salvageable Wrecks, Crash Sites, and Impact Craters
Satellite Manager & SAT/ASAT System
Great Statesman (if we keep them)
Dust Brown Out System (which I have fallen in love with)
Culture-Granting Buildings and Improvements (For the power grid stuff)
EMP? (not sure if we will keep this)
Microwave Terriforming
Great People enhancements (because let's face it, our GPs are a bit messed up--This may not require Python work though)
Light/Dark Side of the Moon (for which I have an idea, btw)
Lagrange Points
Whatever Ideology Support we wind up needing
Whatever new civic code we need

And then any game events we run with, be it Lunacy, Isolation, Reassertion, Laze the Moon, etc.

And of course, special routines to make the AI not suck vis a vis using all the new features.

And that's not counting whatever new things we come up with during the redesign.