Ranged unit upgrade path.

[Darac]

I and a few others still find it a bit awkward that ranged units lose 1 range when entering the modern era. The Crossbow ->Machine gun upgrade is better than before but still doesn't sit well with me.

Perhaps Machine gun units should be a new type of unit that can create a lot of damage at short range but require fortification like siege units. and possibly even add some directional component (like company of heros does so well).

Then ranged units can promote to a new unit that retains its 2 range, the Mortar Squad.

After that the Mortar Squad can turn into a mech mortar or something... i don't know. Still needs thought but what do you think about the 2 ranged mortar unit anyway?

 

[Lexicus]

They should bring back TOW Infantry as the final unit in the ranged upgrade path, instead of Mech Infantry.

 

[Frosty_AUT]

Mortars are a good idea as a replacement for crossbows. I feel that from the modern era onwards, the game is just missing a second-line fire support unit that isn't artillery (which has to set up), which leads to the awkward situation of enemy crossbows being exceptionally annoying to deal with since you no longer have a direct equivalent.

They should bring back TOW Infantry as the final unit in the ranged upgrade path, instead of Mech Infantry.

While I would welcome the introduction of AT missile infantry, I think that this should be an upgrade for AT guns (which I would turn into a 1-range unit like MGs), replacing the rather illogical upgrade to helicopter gunship.

 

[Darac]

I agree with that. Then the helicopter gunship can be its own type of awesome unit. No zone of control effected unit?

 

[Pascal Nouma]

TOW and mortar idea is just great for crossbows. because of the range loss i don't upgrade my CB to gatling most of the times. With range loss and big hp gain archers became a unit for different purpose, something you can use at open field boldly but not that useful for city defense.

 

[awesome]

i've said it before and i'll say it again: they should've used grenadiers.

 

[Darac]

i've said it before and i'll say it again: they should've used grenadiers.

so crossbows -> grenadiers (around the same time as rifling and cannons) -> mortar ( around the same time as infantry ) -> ?

1 range AT guns -> TOW inf

helicopter gunships as a unit of their own class.

What's the final upgrade for ranged infantry? or do we not need one?

*edit*
actually the AT gun can't really be 1 range because the lance will lose it's promotions if that happens... keep the AT gun as is and make the TOW a melee unit also?

 

[Darac]

so.. Pascal started a similar and equally valid thread about ranged mounted units and that the chariot archer which i'm sure no one uses and the many special units which replace the knight and are ranged also have this issue where the upgrades are detrimental.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=466902

I'm combining these threads as I feel this topic is going to grow until we we've redesigned the entire unit tree of civ V.

I like the current path of spearman -> pikemen -> Lancer -> AT gun. It makes sense to me because they are all anti mounted/anti armor units.

I don't like AT gun -> Helicopter gunship so I think AT gun -> TOW infantry would work better.

I also don't think either ranged or mounted ranged should upgrade to the siege path either...

we could reduce the range of mounted ranged units to 1 and allow them to move after attack. This makes them a little different to just ranged units that move faster.

And finally what if we get rid of the newly introduced machine gun and make them a half track, like one of these, retaining his 1 range (matching the mounted archery units in range and speed). After the half track it can turn into a helicopter gunship also with 1 range.



If we did that then the paths would look like this:

Ranged units line:
Archer -> Composite Bowmen -> Crossbow -> Grenadier -> Mortar -> ?

Mounted ranged units line:
Chariot Archer -> Horse Archer -> Heavy Horse Archer (or possibly Mounted Crossbow) -> (do we need something here? -> Half track (replace the machine gun, has 1 range and more speed) -> helicopter gunship (give 1 range).

anti mounted/anti armor line:
spearman -> pikeman -> Lancer -> AT gun -> TOW infantry

melee line:
warrior -> swordsman -> longsword -> musket -> riflemen -> Great War Infantry -> Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry

mounted/armor line:
horseman -> knight -> cavalry -> tank -> modern armor

Thoughts?

 

[Frosty_AUT]

I don't like it when infantry upgrades to cavalry (like pikeman -> lancer) and vice versa (lancer -> AT gun). Units of a particular upgrade line shouldn't just stay close to their original role, they should also be similar in how they fulfill it. That's why I said that AT guns shouldn't upgrade to gunships, seeing how the only thing they have in common is their bonus against armour.

Anyway, I think that crossbows should upgrade to light field guns (no setup, but less range than arty and no city attack bonus) which in turn should upgrade to mortars (WWI through WWII) and finally mech mortars (to keep up with mech infantry).

As for pikemen, they could upgrade to fusiliers, then AT riflemen, then make a logical jump to AT gun and then AT missile infantry?

 

[Darac]

I don't like it when infantry upgrades to cavalry (like pikeman -> lancer) and vice versa (lancer -> AT gun). Units of a particular upgrade line shouldn't just stay close to their original role, they should also be similar in how they fulfill it. That's why I said that AT guns shouldn't upgrade to gunships, seeing how the only thing they have in common is their bonus against armour.

Anyway, I think that crossbows should upgrade to light field guns (no setup, but less range than arty and no city attack bonus) which in turn should upgrade to mortars (WWI through WWII) and finally mech mortars (to keep up with mech infantry).

As for pikemen, they could upgrade to fusiliers, then AT riflemen, then make a logical jump to AT gun and then AT missile infantry?

So where does the Lancer fit?

A fusiliers is just another name for a musket man isn't it?

Perhaps after mortar marking the jump to rocket artillery is ok seeing as it doesn't have to deploy.

 

[Frosty_AUT]

So where does the Lancer fit?

A fusiliers is just another name for a musket man isn't it?

Perhaps after mortar marking the jump to rocket artillery is ok seeing as it doesn't have to deploy.

Lancer wouldn't fit anymore, never liked them anyway. Lancers became obsolete by the time that rifles became dominant (rendering cavalry more of a flanking/raiding unit than the main attack force) and I think the unit choices should reflect that.

Fusiliers were a sort of light infantry whose duty was to guard artillery units. Actually they were probably not much different from regular riflemen, but I was desparate to find the missing link, and noticed how Rise of Nations used fusiliers to fill the gap between pikemen and AT riflemen. Historically, pikemen would simply evolve to riflemen. But I prefer gameplay over historical accuracy.

And yes, mortar evolving to rocket artillery would stand to reason. Looking at the similarities, mech mortars would probably be a redundant unit.

 

[Darac]

Ok, I think that settles the Mortar upgrade then.

As for Lancers I agree they don't fit to well, but until a better then Pikemen worse than AT Gun anti cavalry/armor unity can be found I'd be tempted to keep it.

So we have:

Ranged units line:
Archer -> Composite Bowmen -> Crossbow -> Grenadier -> Mortar -> Join with the siege tree at Rocket Artillery

Siege units:
Catapult -> Trebuchet -> Cannon -> Artillery -> Rocket Artillery

Mounted ranged units line:
Chariot Archer -> Horse Archer -> Mounted Crossbow -> Half track (replace the machine gun, has 1 range and more speed) -> helicopter gunship (give 1 range).

anti mounted/anti armor line:
spearman -> pikeman -> Lancer -> AT gun -> TOW infantry

melee line:
warrior -> swordsman -> longsword -> musket -> riflemen -> Great War Infantry -> Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry

mounted/armor line:
horseman -> knight -> cavalry -> tank -> modern armor

p.s.
I've started building Civ mods by the way so I'll probably throw this together in future as a standalone unit mod as well as a version you can mix with some of my other ideas.