[RaRE] Reworking the combat system

[Commander Bello]

Hi there,

and thank you for making mods !

May I ask if you have been successful in improving combat, as I am playing with my brother that TAC Final mod and I "rage quit" 3 times now, because of combat ...
AI always have been attacking with
1 cuirassier and 10 cannons

okay 2 times , my defenses would have lost even with a logical combat system

Last time he attacked my capital (Fort 90% defense) with such stack of idiotic combination
but I had there
2 cuirassier
2 dragons
4 veterans
4 musketeers
2 cannons
4 garrison cannons

HE KILLED them all and he didn't lost a single unit

Tried a counterattack with the cuirassier, which had a 95% chance to win, but they have been killed ???


Anyway seems that you HAVE TRIED to improve that,
so my question HAVE YOU SUCCEEDED ?
and does it help against idiotic art armies ? So when I use cav from the back they should kill that stack without problem ... but I think that is too much I want and I will have to wait for HOI V , but they also had that STACK OF DOOM problem at the beginning of HOI IV

If so, PLEASE WHERE could we download it ?
IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH the random numbers
or is that combat TAC AI (Col AI) cheating like hell (played even only EXPLORER Level) !

Well, I have reworked the combat system.

It now applies the bonuses and maluses on the respective side (formerly, they were all but two allocated on the defender's side). It furthermore takes some things like terrain and features in consideration in a different way.

Nevertheless, like Kailric, from your description I assume that you fell victim to the overwhelming power of cannons against fortifications.
Many, if not most players are complaining about this and they are right (according to my point of view). This one is on my list, but not yet done. Sorry about that.

And of course one can lose a battle even with 95% percent chance of winning. After all, it is 95% and not 100%
This has been adressed by me in the past by limiting the internal combat rounds to 7, changing the combat from always being lethal to one of the units to a system, where draws are common, forcing you (and your opponent) to attack multiple times. This already has made its way into the main RaR modification.
Nevertheless, you may still lose a fight with a much stronger unit in just one single combat, but it will happen much less. That is part of the design goal. After all, in wartime there are always surprises and unexpected outcomes.

Stacks like the ones you have described (and which are typical for AI-built stacks) are best fought in the wilderness and not adjacent to your city, where all the wall-breaking and city attacker bonuses come into play. (I know, this is easier to say than to do, but in general this is the golden rule: attack the AI in the wilderness)

The strange way of the computer composing its stacks is related to the "AI" in the background.

Now the bad news:
My contribution to RaRE of course will refer to RaR, not to TAC (although I am coming from there, too. )
As there is a final version of RaR at the horizon, I will release my changes after that version has been released (shouldn't take very long after that release).

During my changes, I have found many places where the AI should be improved (and as far as I see it, could be improved). Unfortunately, there are so many interconnections that this is a major task - and I am not the world's best programmer.
So, changes in this area will still take quite some more time.

Answering Kailric's question: no, there isn't any collateral damage in TAC (nor in RaR). As I am not very fond of the collateral damage system in Civ4, I am not planning to transfer that system to Colonization. I am thinking about something different, though - but once again, that is for the future.

tl;dr:
Some changes have been made. Expect release short after the next version of RaR has been released.
Not all of your problems and complaints will be adressed though, but stay tuned.

 

[Kailric]

Yeah, I would like to see what changes you have made as well.

I do like the idea of collateral damage or barrage damage as it adds a bit of realism to combat. Civ4 had a major flaw with it however, in that if two equally stacked armies squared off against each other the Attacker would win 99% of the time because of Collateral damage. This was completely unfair and unrealistic.

Thus I started a project called Strategic and Tactical Warfare Mod where I addressed some of these issues. For starters if a Collateral damage Unit attacked a stack, if there where any Collateral damage units in that stack those two units would do battle. Thus, both sides would then cause Collateral Damage. Collateral Damage then happened in somewhat real time instead of the unbalanced turn based. And you couldn't just leave your Catapults and such undefended to prevent Collateral damage to your other units as they could easily be out flanked by fast units and destroyed before they ever got to send a volley.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Kailric:

"Colateral Damage" for Cannons was one of the main changes I was intending to implement for "New RaR Combat System".
(Actually this could be done by adding that feature to Promotions and then give "hidden Promotions" to those units.)

On the other hand, I wanted to lower their "normal" combat strength significantly.
And of course they should "bombard" enemy units instead of "attacking" them.

My idea was to have Cannons that feel like artillery instead of (overpowered) tanks.

Problem with all of those changes was not really the funtional changes itself.
The challenge of such a new system would be to have AI properly understand.
(e.g. how to build up its army, build stacks, defend cannons, use cannons for bombarding units and not attacking units ...)

Spoiler :

It is a pitty we never came to cooperate on such a new system while I was still an active modder.
But as it seems there are still a few modders around interested to create a new and better combat system for Civ4Col.

I am looking forward to the new combat systems you guys are going to design.

 

[Kailric]

My idea was to have Cannons that feel like artillery instead of (overpowered) tanks

Yeah, I know what you mean. In my latest game of M:C I have been using Catapults to batter down the defenses and then sending them in first the next turn to soften up the defenders(they die but I just build more). This however feels like cheating as in reality you wouldn't be able to send in Catapults to do melee combat in order to soften up defenders inside a city.

So, yeah, having their roll changed to actual artillery sounds great. Perhaps they couldn't attack out right as you say, but can only bombard thus also doing collateral damage to defenders. Defenders would have a chance to resist collateral damage, modified by their Fortified value plus any Promotions. That way there would be no guarantees and your best units could still hopefully hold out until reinforcements arrived.

Perhaps we could also use PlotGroups (which is in M:C ported from Civ4) to have some kind of supply line for defenders in Cities to be able to Heal if they sustained no artillery damage that turn. Plus, as in Civ4 I think, you could only receive up to half damage as being collateral.

Teaching the AI the new tactics would be a challenge as you say, but I've tooled around with them somewhat and I feel confident it could be done. Making them use stacks is first priority. Then, I am thinking once they manage to maneuver an Artillery piece into position and attempt to attack with it, the AI's attack code is high jacked to use new Bombard rules only... something like that, this is because saying a unit "Can't Attack" will perhaps cause all kinds of issues with the AI. Can you imagine the AI's reaction when they attempt to Attack with their Tank like Catapults/Cannons and all they do is Bombard/Collateral damage. "I have you now!!! W$F, Collateral, that's B$!"

Then again, Siege engines can be given their own AI algorithms that would prevent them from Moving without an escort, such as forced shadowing other military units, and the AI could be trained to use them as intended.

 

[Nightinggale]

Perhaps we could also use PlotGroups (which is in M:C ported from Civ4) to have some kind of supply line for defenders in Cities to be able to Heal if they sustained no artillery damage that turn.

Plotgroups can't go through enemy units. This mean you can cut a city off from a plotgroup if you place units on all access road plots. While it is interesting from a strategic point of view, the question is if what it should be connected to. If a city loses the plotgroup, it will generate a plotgroup itself. Cities always have a plotgroup meaning just checking if there is one is bogus.

 

[Willi_Tell]

I am a great fan of "ranged attack" too!

Spoiler :

I rememeber having suggested "ranged attack" to be implemented in RaR for several times, unfortunately neither priority nor time was given to that topic.
(no offending, Ray)

It would really be fantastic having ranged attack for cannons/artillery. Another highly interesting point to me is ammuntion.

There are already mods containing such features:
--> Col: "DoaNE" ("Dawn of a New Era")*
--> Civ4: "PAE" ("Pie's Ancient Europe")**

* in DoaNE, all cannons have ranged attack function and they consume ammo doing so. Supply ammo can be stored in wagons and transported to battlefield. (the "ammo-feature" is deactivated for AI though, as it does not know how to handle)

** in PAE, ranged attack is implemented not only for "artillery" (siege units) but for Archers too -and AI even knows how to handle. Very cool and very dangerous...!!!

 

[Nightinggale]

* in DoaNE, all cannons have ranged attack function and they consume ammo doing so. Supply ammo can be stored in wagons and transported to battlefield. (the "ammo-feature" is deactivated for AI though, as it does not know how to handle)

DoaNE is closed source, which mean we can't tell how it does what it does.

** in PAE, ranged attack is implemented not only for "artillery" (siege units) but for Archers too -and AI even knows how to handle. Very cool and very dangerous...!!!

That mod is interesting because it does everything in python. While the intended goal seems to be to make it mac compatible, it does mean that we have all the source code. It has some creative ways of doing DLL work in python, but sadly makes it harder to read and much slower than just modifying the DLL. Comments are a funny mix of German and English, but that goes for TAC as well (and to some degree RaR). This mean searching is less efficient because sometimes horseman code is called horse and sometimes Pferd

Nevertheless despite the imperfections in reading this mod code, it seems to be really worth investigating. Also it looks like an interesting mod to play.

 

[Commander Bello]

... sometimes horseman code is called horse and sometimes Pferd

"horse" is always confusing me, too.

 

[FlashXAron]

Hi there and thank you for answering ...
already changed to RAR Mod , which is a lot better for me, as I prefer micromanagment.

As Civ4 Col is already somehow old it is fantastic what you all have done ...

and I am looking Forward for the FINAL Version ...


PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT THE STORAGE, now my greatest Frustration is STORAGE it makes me nuts ... as I have built a main City and deliver all resources to it ....
even after the last upgrade, IT IS A JOKE ...
THAT IS NOT FUN !

Strange is that I changed the value of the storage to double in the XML file ... but it will not Show up in the game !

Started a MP game with my brother , where my brother could hotjoin whenever he wants , maybe that is the reason why the Change didn't Show up in the game ...

even when I play alone ...
maybe the RAR Mod Team should consider to upgrade storage also ... it removes really a lot of fun !

Thanks

PS: Sad that CIV V and BE couldn't really be played with Mods together, apart that that both games are dumbed down ... Special AI couldn't handle that both games

 

[FlashXAron]

Okay now it works ,,, had to double ALL storage values in the file ... now it feels better , even I couldn't fill everything into the City ...
The mod should do that also, maybe you could consider it ...

I have seen a variable in the files, which caps the STACK OF DOOM for the AI to 32

Is there a way to cap the stack size for ALL PLAYERS (humans and AI) ?
Think 8 should be enough ... but think that engine and the AI couldn't handle it ?

 

[Commander Bello]

My personal opinion:
Stack limits have to be set very carefully. The human player may cope with it, but the AI will face major problems in pathfinding and deciding, where to place which unit.

 

[FlashXAron]

agree ... that is why Civ V and BE and all other TB Games are a joke ...
on the other side you have that stupid stack of doom decision battles, win that battle and WAR OVER !

I think HOI is on the right way a combination of stack, which represents an army (the combination of Units is essential) and how much will fight at the same time ...
BUT THE AI has to be consider that ...
Paradox is trying that and already has been on a good way in HOI III , but at the beginning it was terrible and always a lot of STACK of DOOM decision battles ...

So for me the perfect battle sim for MP would be
DOMINIONS IV combined with HOI IV
useable for MP/Coop and SP !!!

Have to dream on or start to code myself