Rate Napoleons Marshalls

[storealex]

I want to know what you think of each and every one of them. Well at least the ones you know.
I know some people here see Davout as a better general than Napoleon and Im really interested in arguments from these.

Happy posting!

 

[YNCS]

Grouchy would have to rate fairly low. If for no other reason than during the Battle of Waterloo he took a large number of Napoleon's troops and marched them around ineffectively, engaging neither Wellington or Blücher.

Personally, I think Bernadotte was the most successful marshal. After all, he became king of Sweden, a position now held by his direct descendent.

 

[privatehudson]

Grouchy would have to rate fairly low. If for no other reason than during the Battle of Waterloo he took a large number of Napoleon's troops and marched them around ineffectively, engaging neither Wellington or Blücher.

That's quite unfair. Grouchy was given no hope of performing the tasks alloted to him by Napoleon that day, which were quite impossible because of Napoleon's errors, not Grouchy's. He did engage part of Blucher's army which put up a very stubborn and effective rearguard action. After Wavre, not knowing of his Emperor's crushing defeat he marched on Brussels only to be informed of Waterloo soon after. Despite being surrounded by many times his own number of enemy troops he still managed to extricate his forces intact and return to the border. His record prior to 1815 is hardly one of incompetence either. Certainly not the best, but probably one of most underated much maligned Marshals with very little reason.

I'm one of those who rate Davout as good, if not better than Napoleon. Davout was a professional, an ingenious commander, no politician, and rarely for the Grand Armee, a marshal who paid attention to things like supply lines and caring for his men. His sucess at Auerstadt is probably his shining moment, engaging twice his own number of Prussians piecemeal and not only holding them back all day, but at the end driving them from the field. But that was only one sample of his talents from a man who frequently argued with Napoleon, and more often than not was right.

I'd say the best were, in no particular order Lannes, Davout, Suchet, mostly because all three excelled in any particular role you cared to put them in. Marshals like Murat, Bessieres (cavalry), Berthier (mind reading napoleon and organising the army) and to a degree Soult (Strategy) were briliant in their field, but by and large very ineffective in others. Ney, Oudinot and possiblt MacDonald were promoted beyond their ideal level of command, excellent at commanding Corps, unpredictable and sometimes inept at anything higher. Bernadotte wasn't a bad commander but performed badly on a number of occasions, and I tend to get the impression that politics mattered more than soldiering to him. Marmont was a pretty fine general and drove Wellington the closest to defeat in the peninsula before being wounded. His name and reputation were soiled by the events of 1814 though. Massena was also a good soldier but ruined his reputation by incessant bouts of looting whenever there wasn't serious fighting to be done

 

[pawpaw]

For bravery and esp de corp--Murat & Ney

For ability--Lannes

 

[storealex]

Hey Hudson that's very impressive. One thing though, I was not under the impression that Berthier was more than a "super secretary" ?

Btw, can you recommend some good books on the subject?

 

[dgfred]

For bravery and esp de corp--Murat & Ney

For ability--Lannes

I know nothing (almost) about the Marshalls and Napolean's Armies ,
could you, PH and the rest elaborate even more for us thick headed ones? I
know a little of Ney, Davout and Murat...... but very, very little .
Keep the great info coming!!!

 

[storealex]

What I know about Ney, is that he was a skilled commander, who's temper sometimes ruined his coordination with other forces. It's seemed like he just wanted to beat the enemy so bad, that he didn't always had time to wait for the right moment of attack.

During the retreat from Moscow, he performed excellent, but Napoleon thought he died. When Napoleon found out that he had survived, he said: "Surely, this man is the bravest of the brave"

After Napoleons exile to Elba, Ney served the King, and he was even the man send out to stop Napoleon from returning. Ney shifted sides though, going back to his old master whom he loved. This caused him to be excecuted after Napoleons final defeat.

Ney performed with aggression (Too much) and bravery as always, in the battle of Waterloo, in which he at some point was found beating an English cannon with his sword in frustration over the way the battle was going.

Murat was a Cavalryman, and a damn good one, but too abitious. His wife, who was also Napoleons sister, plotted with him far too often. When Napoleon was thought dead in Spain (He was actually pushing the English out of the Peninsulla) Murat was thought as the man who should replace the Emperor, something that was against Napoleons whishes and therefore treachery.
Napoleon forgave him though. He probably needed him, and even made him King of Naples. Murat ended up abandoning Napoleon when things were looking grim in 1813. I think he asked to be forgiven and serve again in "The 100 days" But Napoleon could not forget his doubble treachery, and wouldn't have it.

Davout, I cannot tell you much about, but Im sure Hudson can

 

[privatehudson]

One thing though, I was not under the impression that Berthier was more than a "super secretary" ?

Exactly, he was no field general, but it was Berthier that turned Napoleon's wandering, rambling dictations into a sensible series of orders to each commander. When Soult got the job in 1815 he wasn't anywhere near capable of this, and the orders he wrote read like he took down what the emperor said verbatim. This gave orders a very vague sense and often included masses of irrelevant information. Berthier was a staff man indeed, but a genius at the job.

Btw, can you recommend some good books on the subject?

I always say you can't go wrong with a good David Chandler book I think he wrote one on the Marshals.

Ney like Grouchy gets a good deal of stick for the 100 days, and much of it is quite unfair. He certainly was as Storealex says quite a hotheaded commander, but when operating under the control of a good superior like Napoleon in his early career Ney was quite gifted. The problem lies in that as a Marshal, Ney would be very unlikely to accept subordination to a fellow Marshal, in effect meaning either independent command, being kept near Napoleon or chaos. The last was what ensued in Spain for much of the penninsula wars. Napoleon refused to appoint a senior commander, Joseph (the King of Spain and Napoleon's brother) had no real experience or authority, and Napoleon himself refused to take command. It left each Marshal controlling his area and competing against the others, frequently squabbling and refusing to co-operate with eachother unless it was absolutely necessary. It didn't help that Napoleon insisted on sending orders from France either since by the time he'd found out the situation, made a decision and sent the orders the situation was totally different. One of the sad things about Ney's career of course is the way he died, as a scapegoat for those who sided with Napoleon in the hundred days. Some of his fellow marshals voted for his execution too.

In Russia his exploits became legend as Storealex says. He claimed to be the last armed French soldier to leave Russia at the end of the campaign. He had taken over command of the rearguard during the retreat after Murat and IIRC Eugene had abandonned the role, and Napoleon himself had abandonned the army. He frequently fought in squares of infantry with a musket beating off the roving cossack bands. By the time he reached the river Niemen he was so worn out that the soldiers there didn't recognise him, quite something when you consider Ney had red hair and quite a distinctive personality to boot.

And that's all I have time for now

 

[pawpaw]

People have heard of Ney, Murat, Bernadotte, but do they know there was 26 marshalls of France?

A brief rundown of the 26 ( for more detail ask privatehudson, I bow to his superior Napoleonic knowledge )


Pierre Augereau
Member of pre-revolutionary army, joined the revolution and made colonel in 1794. Made a general during the bitter la Vendee revolt and commander of a division against Spain. In 1796 joined the army of Italy and met Napoleon and fought well. Actually stood against Napoleon in the Brumaire coup. Out of favor he did not make marshall till 1806. Served at Jena, in spain and Russia. Aftering losing the city of Lyons to allies, defected to King. Did not join 100 days campaign. After Waterloo, refused to convict Ney at his trial. A man of coviction he stood up to both Napoleon and louis.

Jean Baspiste Bernadotte
A member of the pre-revolutionary army he join the revolution ( tatoo death to tyrants on arm ) and by 1794 commanded a division. Fought in the early Rhine campaigns till 1798 when he deserted his command when things got bad. Being married to a former lover of napoleon kept his career afloat. He performed badly at Auerstadt/Jena but redeemed himself at Lubeck/Mohrugen. His indecesion at Wagram lost him Napoleon's favor again. He got elect Crown prince of Sweden and led Sweden against France in 1813-1814. He was self serving and too worried of a mistake ( how would it affect him ) to be a good commander.

Louis Berthier
A member of the kings pre-revolutionary army he joined the revolution but was dismissed from it in 1792 for " pro royalist" leanings. In 1795 joined the army of Italy were he met Napoleon and served as his chief of staff in Italy and Egypt. He would hold this position throughout most of his career. During the 100 days refused to support Napoleon ( always a royalist at heart ) The few times he held a command he did poorly but was a superb organizer and administrator.

Jean Bessieres
A pre-revolutionary soldier who actual fought with the kings Swiss guard to protect Louis XVI. Switching to the revolution he fought in Italy, gaining a command of a division. In 1804 made marshall and commander of the imperial guard cavalry leading it at austerlitz/Jena/friedland. Sent to spain he chased Moore's army to the coast. His cavalry performed strong in the Wagram and Russian campaign. He was kill at Weissenulfels in 1813. A good cavalry commander and called friend by Napoleon.

Guillaume Brune
A fanatic republican he fought in Italy with Napoleon. In 1802 he was made ambassador to Turkey. This was followed by more diplomatic posts. His constant support for a republic led Napoleon to dismiss him. During the 100 days he joined Napoleon against the king but was killed by a pro-royalist mob before he could.

Louis Davout
An aristocrat by birth he joined the revolution, by 23 he commanded a brigade. Campaigning along the Rhine he was captured by the Prussians but exchanged ( a move they would pay for later ) joining Napoleon in Egypt he was captured by the royal navy and again exchanged. He fought well at Austerlitz and even better at Auerstadt against a much superior Prussian force. He clashed with napoleon in Russia when Napoleon ingnored his plan at Borodino ( with heavy loses ) then overrode his plans for the retreat and rearguard out of Russia ( again with heavy loses ) He surrendered the city of Hamburg near the end on the king Louis orders. ( something Napoleon would never forgive him for ) During the 100 days he join Napoleon but was made minister of war, not a command. A gifted commander it is likely Napoleon did not like to share the limelight with another, which led to his attitude towards in the later years.

Emmamuel Grouchy
An aristocrat serving in the kings gardes du corp he joined the revolution. He was kicked out of the army as an " aristocrat " but rejoined in 1795 as a general. Served on the expendition to Ireland under Hoche. At Eylau/Freidland/wagram he performed well as a cavalry commander. He performed this role during the retreat from Russia as well, but his health was broken there. He came out of retirement for the 100 days were he will be remembered for following the defeated Prussians instead of returning to Napoleon at Waterloo. A decent commander ruined by 1 action.

 

[pawpaw]

Gouvin St. Cyr
Joined the revolution and was a general by 1794 serving along the Rhine. Quit his command in Spain angering Napoleon and left without a command till 1812 and Russia. Started well but another defeat caused him to resign again. Remained loyal to the king during the 100 days. Better known for his reforms to the french armies during his time as minister of war after the revolution.

Jean Basptiste Jourdan
A soldier sinse 1778 he joined the revolution and served in all the early campaigns. Served in Spain losing badly at Talavera & Vitoria. He made peace with the king in 1814. Joined Napoleon for the 100 days. Probably the worst of the marshals, known as the " anvil " for beeing beaten on so may times.

Francois Kellerman
69 when he recieved his baton, he had been in the royal army from the 7 years war on. Joined the revolution and was victor at the battle of Valmy. After 1797 in charge of reserves and national guard. long service to king made others suspicious of him in spite of his achivements.

Francois Lefebvre
Spent 20 years in the kings guards before joining the revolution. During the coup of Brumaire he led troops into the council of 500 and saved Napoleon from a lynching. Commanded the imperial guard infantry in the 1806 Prussian campaign. In 1808 Spain defeated several Spanish forces. Went to Russia in 1812 commanding the young guard. Returned to napoleon for the 100 days. Was a solid, loyal soldier.

Jean Lannes
Joined the army in 1792 and served vs the Spanish. Transfered to Italy where he distinguished himself. He went to Egypt and further stood out. He assisted in the coup de Brumaire. He went to Italy again with napoleon playing a part at Marengo. Won praise at Freidland were he held up the whole Russia army till Napoleon arrived. In 1808 Spain he won at tudela and the seige of Saragossa. In 1809 at aspern-essling he held the Austrian army off for 2 days. He was wounded and died. Napoleon was said to wept when he heard the news. 1 of the better marshal's.

Jacques Macdonald
A Scotsmen, in pre-revolutionary army since 1786, joined revolution as a general of brigade. Served as General Moreau's chief of staff but lost favor when moreau was charged with treason. Returned for the Austrian campaign of 1809 where he crushed the Austrian center at wagram and made marshal on the battlefield ( only one ) Served in Russia and the campaigns in France. During the 100 days helped the king flee. His exile during the " glory days " of Austerlitz/ Jena lowered his name recognition compared to his peers.

Augushe Marmont
An artillery offier he served with Napoleon at Toulon. He followed to the Italian and egyptian campaigns. Back in Italy his artillery made the differance at Marengo and he made general. During the 1809 Austrian campaign almost lost when retreating Austrians turned on him. in spite of the near lose he was nade marshal. Sent to spain he suffer a lost to wellington in Portugal at Salamonca. Wounded he missed the Russian campaign. During the 100 days he stayed loyal to the king. A good artillery officer he was over his head as a marshal.

Bon Adrian Moncey
A kings soldier since 1769 he joined the revolution and rose to general. In 1797 he was dismissed from the army for " pro-royalist" leanings. He returned in 1800 and served in Italy and Switzerland. Made inspector general of the gerdermes and briefly served in Spain. During 100 days remained loyal to king.

Andre Massena
Pre revolution sergeant in the army, joined national guard in 1791. Campaigned along Rhine. Joined Napoleon in italy in 1796 and fought at Lodi and Rivoli. He defeated Suverov at Zurich in 1799. In Spain he was defeat by wellington several times and never held a command again. A gifted soldier who twice removed from command by Napoleon for looting.

 

[pawpaw]

Edoard Morthier
Served along the Rhine in the early revolutionary campaigns. Promoted to general in 1797 he refused it, wanting to just fight for the republic. In 1799 he was offered again and accepted. Made marshal in 1804. Made his mark at Durrenstein when Murat abandoned him to chase the retreating Russians. morthier held off 40,000 allies with only 5000 men. He served in Spain then in Russia as commander of the young guard. During the 100 days he joined Napoleon but was too ill to command.

Joachum Murat
First met Napoleon while supressing the vendemaice coup. Went to Italy and Egypt with him. Brillent at Marengo and Eylau ( saved napoleon ) Married napoleon's sister and made King of Naples. Returned to serve in Russia but by 1813 was negotiating with the allies to save his throne. During 100 days joined Napoleon but was not wanted after his betrayal. He led a revolt in Italy to help Napoleon but failed. His motto was " ride to the sound of the guns " and was the finest cavalryman of his time.

Nicolas Oudinol
Pre revolutionary cavalry captain, joined revolution in 1792 as a colonel. Absolutely fearless in battle ( wounded 22 times ) he made marshal after the Wagram campaign. Stayed loyal to the king during 100 days.

Michiel Ney
Pre revolution hussar, served in almost all Napoleons campaigns. His handling of the reargurd during the retreat from Russia ( often the last man with musket in hand ) earned the title " bravest of the brave " During the 100 days was loyal to the king but betrayed him and returned to Napoleon. Was executed as a tratior by the king. A superb brigade/division/even corp commander, he was over his head as a overall commander.

Dominique Perigon
Served in pre-revolutionary army, joined the revolution in 1792 as a general. Became a member of the council of 500, followed by ambassadar to Spain. Mase marshal in 1804--never held a command after that. In 1814 joined loyalist and during 100 days remain loyal to king. A marshal more due to his political influence than military ability.

Josef Poniatowski
A polish prince, he served against both the Russians and Austrians. He saw Napoleon as the best hope for a free Poland. He raise a Polish legion to fight for the French. In drowned crossing a river after Leipzig in 1813-he had just been made marshal days before.

Nicolas Soult
Joined army at 16, served in the early campaigns alomg the Rhine. He fought well and was noticed at Austerlitz and Jena. Spent most of 1808-1814 in Spain with so-so sucess. A masterful fighting retreat after vitoria vs wellington delays his advance into France. During the 100 days he was Napoleons chief of staff--a job he was not suited for--he was a much better field commander.

Jean Servrier
Long time Royalist officer, joined the revolution and went to Italy under Napoleon. He was fiercely loyal to Napoleon. He switched to politics and became governor of Venice. Died in 1815. Marshal a reward for loyality, not ability.

Louis Suchet
As most of the marshal's began to be noticed in Italy under Napoleon. Served in the central European campaigns. Sent to Spain in 1808, left a new marshal. During the 100 days joined Napoleon but got no command. 1 of the more able marshal's.

Claude Victor
An artillerymen, he meet Napoleon at Toulon. Served in Napoleons Italian campaigns. Made a marshal after the victory at friedland in 1807. Went to Spain in 1808 were he won at Espinosa and Medilla but lost at Talavera and Barrosia. went to Russia in 1812. During the 100 days stayed loyal to the king.

 

[storealex]

Augereau also dealt the deathblow to Napoleons final campaign in 1813. Napoleon wanted to cut off the allies lines of communication, which would force them to retreat. Augereau played a vital role in this campaign, but at the crucial moment refused to move his Corps, believing the war was already lost, and thereby effectively loosing the war for Napoleon, though some might argue that he would have lost anyway...

 

[privatehudson]

On Davout

I would clarify the remarks about his time in the hundred days by saying that his posting in Paris also had much to do with Napoleon desiring a good commander he could trust to hold the city and prevent any rebellions against him there. Davout certainly would have outperformed Ney or Grouchy, but someone with sense and Napoleon's trust was needed in Paris.

I'd also clarify what I said about Grouchy which clashes with your remark about the 100 days. After Ligny, with the Prussians in flight Grouchy argued for an immediate persual of their army but was turned down by Napoleon. The following morning Grouchy again argued for persual, but Napoleon insisted that the Prussians could not possibly recover from Ligny and proceeded to review the troops for hours that morning. By the time Grouchy was given the opportunity to chase Blucher (late morning I think though don't quote me) the Prussians had half a days head start, and Grouchy had no idea where they might have gone to, and Napoleon presumed they'd retreat east towards Namur (SE of Ligny) or Gembloux (east of Ligny). In fact they withdrew at speed North and North East, and it wasn't until the afternoon that Grouchy was able to organise a persual. Only by 7pm on the 17th was it possible to determine that the Prussians were in fact retiring towards the British.

Now this is important because the delays on the 16th and 17th to Grouchy had two major effects. Firstly he could not determine the Prussian intentions until late on the 17th, and this made communicating their plan to Napoleon very difficult. By the time Grouchy could let Napoleon know, Napoleon's plan to fight the British was in full swing. The second is that because Napoleon had delayed Grouchy's detachment as a whole for so long, it was physically impossible for Grouchy to get between Wellington and Blucher from then on. The delays it could be argued did more harm to the French cause than anything else in that campaign because they allowed the reuiniting of the allied forces. Those delays were emphatically not Grouchy's fault, but down to the arrogance of Napoleon believing that he had thrashed Blucher so badly that recovery was unthinkable.

Now you suggest he should have arrived at Waterloo (or perhaps that people suggest I'm not sure if you agree), but Napoleon's orders were specific, locate the main Prussian body and prevent it from uniting with the British. Clearly this was impossible due to the above delays, but Grouchy tried anyway. Once he'd found them though only two major routes would lead him to Napoleon, either right back the way he'd came and through Quatres Bras, or through Wavre. Sitting in Wavre was a Prussian corps, doing exactly the job Grouchy could have done if he'd not been delayed. Despite this Napoleon continued throughout the 18th to demand Grouchy manouvere to block Blucher, not to come to Waterloo. Only late in the day did Grouchy recieve the emperor's demand that Grouchy split his troops and send reinforcements. This was also blatantly impossible, Grouchy could neither get past the Prussians at Wavre in time, nor fight his way through the Prussians under Blucher that would lie between him and Waterloo. He only had something like 30,000 men after all (as a sign of how arrogant the French staff were after Ligny Soult suggested that even that was far too many to deal with the Prussians)

All in all Grouchy is being attacked for not being able to produce a miracle of biblical proportions. He shouldn't be blamed for Napoleon's errors.

 

[storealex]

Yeah, Napoleon displayed none of his earlier genius at Waterloo (He was old and was no longer the young general who trashed the Autrians in Italy and at Austerlitz)

 

[pawpaw]

Now you suggest he should have arrived at Waterloo (or perhaps that people suggest I'm not sure if you agree), but Napoleon's orders were specific, locate the main Prussian body and prevent it from uniting with the British.

As I said, brief rundown on each, all I stated was Grouchy was a compentent commander who was tanished unfair/fairly by his actions at Waterloo.

 

[privatehudson]

As I said, brief rundown on each, all I stated was Grouchy was a compentent commander who was tanished unfair/fairly by his actions at Waterloo.

Well I'd certainly say unfairly. I got the impression from your original comment that you didn't agree because you didn't mention anything about whether those memories were justified.

Clarification on Grouchy was needed anyway

 

[pawpaw]

Clarification on Grouchy was needed anyway

I would say thats the purpose of this thread-to discuss the marshal's

 

[dgfred]

More, more and more..... . Thanks pawpaw and P H
Keep the rundowns coming.

 

[pawpaw]

Common thread for the majority of the marshal's :

served in pre-revolutionary army of France
were enlisted men
first made their name in Italy with Napoleon

 

[privatehudson]

IIRC only 10 rose from the ranks, and most of them were at least brigade to division commanders when they came to prominence with Napoleon as you say in Italy, which defies the whole "Marshal's baton in every backpack" theory often quoted. In reality no-one who joined the French army as an enlisted man after Napoleon came to power reached the exalted heights of the Marshalate.