it was but was chronically lacking any synchronisation and co-ordination if not leadership (as what later occured in 1798 showed). Bonaparte considered the post but after deloiberation refused it as it was too far from the political fulcrum (i know egypt? strange) and doubted both the chance of success and if there would be any glory in it at all. But another who was very fond of our little island, and indeed at that time was Bonapartes main rival for the accolade of the republic's leading General accepted and fully believed in the escapade, he was one General Hoche, with the full backing and assistance of the architect of victory Carnot. Hoche worked feverishly with Tone and the full backing and prestige of Carnot managed to arrange something even Napoleon later could not a fully rigged, fitted and armed fleet ready to sail and as it proved, capable of breaking and losing the Brittish Navy. The troops may have largely consisted of soldiers of dubious quality (released criminals apparently consisted of a high percentage) but they set sail. Here however luck deserted them, for almost immediately a gale seperated alot of the fleet with a minor number returning to port soon after.
Rate Napoleons Marshalls
- Thread starter storealex
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of the tow seperated parts the smaller was with the General who alone had the plans for the invasion (remind you of anyone?) The fleet had arranged a first meeting point in Bantry bay, and would wait up to a week ffor any stragglers. The majority of the fleet had arrived including approx 23,000 of the landing force. Alas the most senior commander remaining was one 30 year old General de Brigade Emmanuel Grouchy. it was left up to him to decide the next step; invade or sail home! He consulted the commander available, and also Tone who had travelled with him and who nothing but praise for him. The invasion was supposed to have received word from the United Irishmen within five days of appearing off the coast to affirm and begin the uprising but typical of the irish (me included) they had posted sentries for the previous month and as they had spotted nothing believed the game was up for another year. Grouchy's decision was to sail home!!!! I am sorry but here i agree with his detractors, whereas i do believe for the most part he stands (or lies) falsely accused. This was the largest invasion force our island ever saw, even if half was lost or missing. Tone did not aggree but understood it wasnt his decision. Grouchy did not feel he was senior enough to make the decision to risk a landing against a possible ambush, he nor tone did not realise that of the entire Brittish forces on the island, perhaps 45,000 most had to be used as garrison troops, a vast majority were either yeomanry or Irish conscripted and press ganged starving peasants with no love of war nor england, There was only one Brittish cavalry brigade on the whole island. An energetic general such as Hoche or even of the lowly calibre of the man sent to Killala the year later with a mere 1,100 troops General du Brigade Humbert would have seized the intiative. Humbert showed what could be done with a mere 1000, the poor quality of the Irish in brittish service was displayed when they ran at the races of Castlebar, where valiantly a Scottish battalion fought to the last man and the last bullett on the steps of the courthouse. Imagine what may have been achieved with 23000?
Hornblower
Cry Havoc!
privatehudson said:
Hudson,
I was surprised that you rate Napoleon in such a way.
I understand your position on his earlier successes versus his later failures but surely a military commander who also was faced with the dual prospect of leading his entire empire must get a slightly higher rating?
Lasting reforms such as centralised administration in the bureaucracy, a better education system, central banking and tax system not to mention his most far reaching achievement the Napoleonic Code or Code Civil deserve serious points. His military achievements continue to be examined in minute detail to this day.
It is interesting to note that many of the Marshals mentioned here were criticised for their inability to deal with command of larger formations or additional administrative functions upon their promotion. Surely Napoleon dealing with whatever battle he was engaged in as well as the distraction of the erratum of public office deserves a higher rating!
privatehudson
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The added responsibility brings with it advantages also. For example Wellington spent most of the Peninsula Wars sadlled with incompetent commanders, Napoleon could by and large pick and choose the best to serve with him(even if he often got it wrong).
Regardless of the pros and cons of being head of state and head of the army Napoleon's performances on the field in the last half of the wars were so below par that I doubt that even being relieved of the burdens of state would have significantly improved them.
Besides we're not talking about the ability to run a state but military ability and what Napoleon did or didn't do for French and European politics and social equality has no bearing on that. Introducing the civil code is fine in and of itself but my point was never that he didn't do these things. It was simply that people only tend to concentrate on Austerlitz and the Civil Code and therefore do not give a balanced record of his life and career.
The only time administration comes into consideration with regards to Military talent would be in governing conquered territories, organising supply lines, training soldiers etc and in that Napoleon's record was hardly better than Davout or Suchet.
Wellington also suffered from politics back home. Unlike Napoleon, he had to be careful as to avoid risking his meager armies being defeated by superior French forces. Napoleon on the other hand had a complete free reign to do what he like with his wars. If Wellington suffered from a rather heavy defeat, he could have been recalled.
Hornblower
Cry Havoc!
When a culinary dish gets named after a battle that you won or just named after you .... you know that you are one of the best.
Beef Wellington
Chicken Marengo
Did any of the Marshals have dishes named after them?
(I ask this question in all seriousness!)
Beef Wellington
Chicken Marengo
Did any of the Marshals have dishes named after them?
(I ask this question in all seriousness!)
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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Well there's always Nicolas Salt.... errr Soult 
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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DAv2003 said:
Precisely what I was driving at
Verbose
Deity
Bernadotte got a tasty mushroom named after himself but only in Swedish.Hornblower said:
AL_DA_GREAT
amour absinthe révolution
Murat and Ney definetly
AL_DA_GREAT
amour absinthe révolution
you forget that the Napoleonic wars were fought by the English bribing Kings with opiom money from China so they would fight the French.DAv2003 said:
privatehudson
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AL_DA_GREAT said:
That's a rather ridiculous simplification of the wars. The various european nations didn't go to war with France simply because the British paid them to, there were many underlying reasons.
Napoleon always fought to win; he risked a lot to gain a lot. Welington always fought not to lose. He risked little and gained little through his victories. Wellington is a hero to the timid; Napoleon is a hero to the bold.DAv2003 said:
By defeating French forces at Vittoria, Wellington drove the French completely out of the Iberian peninsula, destroyed what was left of French prestige and opened up the path to invade France from the south. Hardly a small gain was it? Not too mention all the loot...
Also Wellington made small risks because he saw the sense in taking small risks to gain the advantage. Napoleon however, made huge risks for the right reasons (sometimes) but unlike Wellington the risks he made were foolhardy.
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