Rate the Beliefs - part II: Founder beliefs

I've been meaning to try a Siam game with Papal Primacy - perma-friend status with double the benefits.

But you can do perma-friend with pledge + aesthetic policy alone.

5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
2 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
0 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
1 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
1 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

World church needs a buff imo. Just a change to every 4 followers is good. As of now the bonus is so miniscule it's laughable. I had an extremely lucky game to pull off an Byzantium game with almost +90CPT by end game. Even as a culture game I would take Tithe over it since Tithe grants me faster opportunity to buy culture buildings post-Medieval period, bribe CS, and so on. Unless I get another Byzantium lucky game, I wouldn't trade it for Tithe for any religious civ. The money is much needed compare to the low CPT it can provide (which will only flourish by end game where having that extra CPT probably won't make a difference anyways).
 
5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
I like it for warmongering, and will almost always choose it in that strategy.
2 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
I suppose it is okay, but getting outshined by Tithe makes it virtually worthless. It would be
okay in a wide empire, maybe, but...
4 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
This is better for wide empires, I think. That burst of gold is excellent if you make quick use
of it.
3 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other
religions
Not bad considering it is one of the only ways to get science from faith.
4 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
Combined with Patronage, makes your resting point friendly. Good for making Diplomatic
Victory or Austrian marriages a little cheaper in far flung CS.
2 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
Happiness is just too easy to get if you are peace loving.
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
Would never get it. Faith getting more faith seems useless in general to me, and this is
lackluster even for that.
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
So... rich...
0 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations
I'd rather just take Tithe and spend the gold on culture buildings if it comes to that.
 
I was thinking about trying to start a warmongering game with peace loving with the idea that you get a massive happiness bonus to offset early stagnation.
 
2 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
2 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
2 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
3 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
3 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
2 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
3 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
4 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
4 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations
 
4 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
4 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
2 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
1 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
4 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
4 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
1 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
3 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

I find it difficult to give only one rating, hence many 4's. Money is the only thing that is universal for any strategy in my opinion and thus tithe is worth the 5. The lackluster traits are not inherently bad, but need balance improvement in my opinion. Science is great, but the gain is lackluster. Many times you are better off with papal primacy and befriending City states.
 
4- Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3- Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
3- Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2- Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
1- Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
2- Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0- Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
4- Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
1- World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

I see a lot of love for Tithe. It's a fantastic belief, but I don't think it's any better than ceremonial burial. Local happiness in this game is easy to get, but global happiness is pretty rare. There is no good substitute for ceremonial burial for a wide or puppet empire. There aren't enough mercantile city states to buy more than 6-9 global happiness with Tithe cash.
 
Perhaps one should try a "super happiness religion build": Ceremonial Burial + Religious Centers + Pagodas. :c5happy::c5happy::c5happy::c5happy::c5happy:

I did something like this for a recent game as Carthage (emperor, archipelago, large). I founded 85 cities and puppeted another 30-35. Ascetecism is better than Pagodas in this scenario. Ceremonial burial is indespensible (there is no way to buy 120 global happiness with gold; of course, this is an extreme scenario).
 
4: Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
4: Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
3: Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
3: Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
4: Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
2: Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
2: Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5: Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2: World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations
 
Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions. underrated

this, is, a , monster. with a faith producing civ eg. celts it will add up to about 1-2 turns fo research add the wonder that lets u convert 3 times u are able to knock 3 turns for 1 missionary add the enhancer that reduces missionary cost, go piety and change all that faith directly into bulbs. realy realy fun alternative to rationalisim
 
Despite the huge necro, here are my two cents.

5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion

Unbeatable when going wide. This is one of the easiest sources of happiness you can get, if you can manage to pick it up.

5 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion

If Ceremonial Burial isn't available, this is the belief to go with for wide. The bonus is incredibly powerful to your early-game economy.

3 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion.

Powerful in the early game, but it's hard to do anything meaningful with this unless you go full ICS, and even then, the mid-late power granted by Church Property is too powerful to make this belief worthwhile.

4 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions

Powerful, but it takes effort and a high Faith production to have any worth. I dislike it personally, because it requires letting other religions become powerful in cities before you spread to them, and penalizes early power, because, again, you have to let other religions grow first. I understand that some people experience great success with this belief, however.

2 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion

A very mediocre belief. If it were +20, it would be great for maintaining friendship with city-states with a pledge, while not requiring investment into the Patronage tree. However, +15 is utterly useless, as the only thing it does is make friendships permanent with Aesthetics. Needs buffing.

3 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities.

A poor belief. If you're in a situation where you need the happiness, you're going to have enemies. It does have better utility in the upper difficulties, where AI cities are liable to become enourmous and have mixed religions, but it's inferior to Ceremonial Burial in that you both don't get bonuses for spreading to your own cities, and need at least 5 followers in all cities following it in other nations.

0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion.

Since buffed to +2, this is still a piss-poor belief. If it were buffed to, say, +5, or dare I say, +10, this would become a viable belief. But as it stands, this is an utterly rancid belief. +2 faith? I'll take CP, and get +2 gold in my cities, too. Or +1 happiness from CB. A poor reward for a difficult target make this belief the weakest.

4 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion

Playing tall? Then this is the equivalent of Church Property for you. I don't quite understand why people seem to like this one so much: You need 8 followers in a city to even hit the same number as CP, and 12 to surpass it. All in all a pretty amazing belief, but CP and CB outmatch it for anything but tall.

5 (if playing culture with strong faith and first or second religion) 2 (otherwise) - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

This is an incredible belief for playing culture, allowing you to easily gain over 100 CPT from it. In my last game playing with it (Byzantium, beliefs were DF, WC, Cathedrals, Itinerant Preachers, Feed the World, and Religious Texts), I was gaining 136 CPT in the Renaissance. This was a Huge map, but the power of it is obvious. If not playing for culture and to specifically exploit this belief, however, this is a garbage belief, providing marginal culture instead of gold or happiness.
 
^^All founder beliefs count foreign cities and population under your religion as well as your own cities. That's why Tithe is so popular; it accounts for the AI population that have converted as well.
 
^^All founder beliefs count foreign cities and population under your religion as well as your own cities. That's why Tithe is so popular; it accounts for the AI population that have converted as well.

...So does Church Property? I even noted that, saying that it's useful at the higher difficulties when the AI's cities get so insanely huge. My point still stands: you need an average of 12 followers a city to surpass CP in gold production. In addition, cities don't get that big until later in the game, which means that while CP activates at full strength as soon as conversion occurs, Tithe is still winding up. That means that CP is more powerful in the early game, where, conveniently, gold is far more valuable (in that both buildings and units are far cheaper both to build and maintain).
 
5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
2 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
2 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
1 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
3 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations
 
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