Moshe Dayan
Da General
So how do you get a reformation belief exactly? It would be nice if they were mentioned at all in the Civilopedia...but they aren't...
Rate the Beliefs - part V: Reformation beliefs
- Thread starter sonicandfffan
- Start date
It is a social policy in the piety tree that unlocks reformation belief.
i kimchi u
Chieftain
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- Jul 10, 2013
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- 32
0 - Charitable Missions: Would rather use 'Patronage'
1 - Evangelism: Does not synergize well with missionaries - not with their attrition penalty.
2 - Heathen Conversion: Could be useful 'til medival era
4 - Jesuit Education: Not too expensive, probably good for sprawlers
1 - Religious Fervor: Really depends on faith costs -- never tried this
5 - Sacred Sites: If you are looking for culture victory, this is a MUST
2 - The Glory of God: I rarely bought Great Persons other than GS/GE/GP
1 - Underground Sect: Don't think religious pressure is good enough to "convert"
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Good bonus to defend against spamming missionaries/prophets, especially if you have an extremely pious civ next to you
(STARING AT SPAIN/ETHIOPIA)
1 - Evangelism: Does not synergize well with missionaries - not with their attrition penalty.
2 - Heathen Conversion: Could be useful 'til medival era
4 - Jesuit Education: Not too expensive, probably good for sprawlers
1 - Religious Fervor: Really depends on faith costs -- never tried this
5 - Sacred Sites: If you are looking for culture victory, this is a MUST
2 - The Glory of God: I rarely bought Great Persons other than GS/GE/GP
1 - Underground Sect: Don't think religious pressure is good enough to "convert"
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Good bonus to defend against spamming missionaries/prophets, especially if you have an extremely pious civ next to you
(STARING AT SPAIN/ETHIOPIA)
JustinianIV
Warlord
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- Jun 13, 2013
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I haven't gone Piety yet, but these beliefs all sound good.
Charitable missions sounds like it could be good with Patronage, of course one would have to sacrifice one SP away from Patronage. Still, this could give crazy pressure on CS as well as getting the Piety closer.
Charitable missions sounds like it could be good with Patronage, of course one would have to sacrifice one SP away from Patronage. Still, this could give crazy pressure on CS as well as getting the Piety closer.
VainoValkea
Emperor
Charitable Missions: definitely useless but influence is cheaper to acquire via other means anyway
Evangelism: haven't tried, possibly most valuable for restoring City-States to the correct faith because of the attrition penalty
Heathen Conversion: won't use. Could be gamed for a large army for cheap, but I don't want to "exploit" the system
Jesuit education: haven't tried, depends a lot on the cost of the buildings in question. My guess is that faith buying a GE/GS is often a better investment
Religious fervor: same as before, probably better uses for that faith
Sacred sites: extra tourism is always good, although this one needs faith investment to work. Cheaper than faith buying GWAMs though
Glory of God: seems poor, because I tend to have Tradition for GEs, Rationalism for GSs and if playing culturally, Aesthetics for GWAMs
Underground Sect: haven't tried, probably won't work as intended. Could perhaps convert unreligious capitals, given enough time, or add another source of pressure to someone pressured by one's trade routes.
Unity of the Prophets: decent for defending one's faith against GPs
Evangelism: haven't tried, possibly most valuable for restoring City-States to the correct faith because of the attrition penalty
Heathen Conversion: won't use. Could be gamed for a large army for cheap, but I don't want to "exploit" the system
Jesuit education: haven't tried, depends a lot on the cost of the buildings in question. My guess is that faith buying a GE/GS is often a better investment
Religious fervor: same as before, probably better uses for that faith
Sacred sites: extra tourism is always good, although this one needs faith investment to work. Cheaper than faith buying GWAMs though
Glory of God: seems poor, because I tend to have Tradition for GEs, Rationalism for GSs and if playing culturally, Aesthetics for GWAMs
Underground Sect: haven't tried, probably won't work as intended. Could perhaps convert unreligious capitals, given enough time, or add another source of pressure to someone pressured by one's trade routes.
Unity of the Prophets: decent for defending one's faith against GPs
kaspergm
Deity
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- 5,793
Oh, that's ok. The idea to make this again hadn't really come to me, but I do wonder if it's a bit early yet for people to really give an accurate assessment of all the beliefs. I guess one should also update some of the policy ones at some point.
kaspergm
Deity
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I am playing a game against Byzans, where she grabbed Pagodas + Mosques + Cathedrals + Sacred Sites!
Obviously, stupid as AI was, it didn't have near enough faith to buy all those buildings, but since we were neighbours, I did let her spread into my area to buy some of the buildings before converting back. I didn't get the Tourism bonus then, however.Looking at the replies in this it may be early some people may not of used many of the policies.
5 - Charitable Missions: Diplomacy win. It combines with patronage for insane bonuses for gold given which is important. If you get extremely lucky and you are someone like Venice, Portugal, morocco, or Indonesia that can back that diplomacy up with money you will take almost every city state while laughing.
4 - Evangelism: I tried it out a few times and I'm basically turning my missionaries into cheap mini great profits. Useful for when you have a need to be the main religion of all the civilizations that lack one. Combines well with both holy order, and Missionary zeal.
1.5- Heathen Conversion: Rebel farming unhappiness is nice but it's still way to limited.
5 - Jesuit Education: Very faith expensive buildings. if you have ALOT of religious output you could probably just buy these with gold and hammers faster still also BNW has lots of ways to catch up when behind. (trade route gold, stealing tech, picking assyria)
0 - Religious Fervor: Not worth the cost even if you want mass units. The price of units with this skill needs a huge reduction.
5 - Sacred Sites: Great for culture. My brazil managed to get buildings and was pumping a bonus 2 tourism per city since it was easy for me to put a mosque and a pagoda in each one.
4 - The Glory of God: When I finish a tree I get some great people and I often get my key great people with policies finished but since every great person has their own scaling cost when you use faith it's nice to get as many as possible. Probably awesome on korea.
2 - Underground Sect: A little religious pressure can convert cities that lack a religion but it's only a tiny bit of pressure and takes a while. It will get you a few people in the town though it combines with texts. It's probably pretty good if you are england with the intelligence buildings so you can have bonus spies everywhere.
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Nice if your Indonesia and want lots of religions or if you are trying to max out what you can get with a second pantheon from the tree but meh.
5 - Charitable Missions: Diplomacy win. It combines with patronage for insane bonuses for gold given which is important. If you get extremely lucky and you are someone like Venice, Portugal, morocco, or Indonesia that can back that diplomacy up with money you will take almost every city state while laughing.
4 - Evangelism: I tried it out a few times and I'm basically turning my missionaries into cheap mini great profits. Useful for when you have a need to be the main religion of all the civilizations that lack one. Combines well with both holy order, and Missionary zeal.
1.5- Heathen Conversion: Rebel farming unhappiness is nice but it's still way to limited.
5 - Jesuit Education: Very faith expensive buildings. if you have ALOT of religious output you could probably just buy these with gold and hammers faster still also BNW has lots of ways to catch up when behind. (trade route gold, stealing tech, picking assyria)
0 - Religious Fervor: Not worth the cost even if you want mass units. The price of units with this skill needs a huge reduction.
5 - Sacred Sites: Great for culture. My brazil managed to get buildings and was pumping a bonus 2 tourism per city since it was easy for me to put a mosque and a pagoda in each one.
4 - The Glory of God: When I finish a tree I get some great people and I often get my key great people with policies finished but since every great person has their own scaling cost when you use faith it's nice to get as many as possible. Probably awesome on korea.
2 - Underground Sect: A little religious pressure can convert cities that lack a religion but it's only a tiny bit of pressure and takes a while. It will get you a few people in the town though it combines with texts. It's probably pretty good if you are england with the intelligence buildings so you can have bonus spies everywhere.
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Nice if your Indonesia and want lots of religions or if you are trying to max out what you can get with a second pantheon from the tree but meh.
Charitable Missions takes off really quickly. For one, you have Piety more or less finished, which means Holy Sites are outputting 3 gold and culture, and you'll have the faith to plop them on unused tiles, a LOT (especially with a Faith-boosting belief or two)
Take Patronage as well and they stack. You'll get more bang for your buck, guaranteed.
If you also manage to finish Commerce, you can get huge double-whammies on city-states by turning Faith into Merchants, Merchants into gold and influence, and Merchant gold into even more influence.
Take Patronage as well and they stack. You'll get more bang for your buck, guaranteed.
If you also manage to finish Commerce, you can get huge double-whammies on city-states by turning Faith into Merchants, Merchants into gold and influence, and Merchant gold into even more influence.
Martinus
Emperor
You need to have founded a religion too.
sonicandfffan
Warlord
Yes, this doesn't save up either - I completed the tree with Poland before founding a religion (yes, Poland are THAT good) and founded a religion the same turn (using the free prophet) - no reformation belief. It's a complete waste to get the reformation policy unless you have a religion.
PhilBowles
Deity
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- Nov 20, 2011
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- 5,333
I've only used Heathen Conversion, Jesuit Education, Sacred Sites and Charitable Mission so far. Rankings:
5 - Heathen Conversion: this really is ridiculously powerful. I'm not sure why you'd go for faith-buying post-Industrial land units when you can walk up to them and get several for free at once.
4 - Sacred Sites: Essential for cultural victory.
3 - Jesuit Education: I didn't use this to its full potential (only bought universities, not research labs), however unless you're playing rather wide the payoff seems limited and you'll often have the gold to buy these buildings. Late-game faith is better invested in Great People.
2 - Charitable Mission. No doubt it's having an effect, as I've bribed a couple of CSes this game, but gold is the worst way to obtain CS loyalty anyway - I only tend to use it where no quests are available.
As for the others, only The Glory of God looks comparable with the better Reformation Beliefs I've used. I haven't actually seen much AI Prophet-spam since BNW - it's missionaries all the way. So Unity of the Prophets seems the weakest to me; at the very least it's passive and its effect is outside your control.
ToodleElNoodos
Warlord
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- Oct 1, 2011
- Messages
- 187
I'm assuming that the player is gonna be capitalizing on Faith and Religion the whole game...so...I'll rank it in turns of utility, since Religion is pretty much that!
5 - Charitable Missions: Holy...!!! Amazing! Even if you're not going for Diplomatic Victory, gold is extremely easy to come-by and the AI is less adamant with rigging elections.
1 - Evangelism: Meh! Only removes pressure in your own cities! If you didn't grab Religious Text or Itinerant Preachers, and you hate worrying about religions, then get this. Missionaries and Inquisitors can create an spiritual iron curtain.
5- Heathen Conversion: Ya...I'm totally biased to this. Free unit generators for only 100
? YES!!! Holy Orders + Rampaging Barbarians? Money maker! Barbarian ships raiding your cargo lanes? Go Pope Leo on their Attila the Hunnic ways! I've managed to turn around horrid early Faith-focused games because of this. Focus production on your culture, science, population, or gold; upgrade barbarians you want, and sell the rest!
4 - Jesuit Education: Science is key and lifeblood in this game! Pursuing a religion early will set you back technologically and culturally. Having access to Jesuit Education capitalizes on your investment turning your weakness into your greatest strength! Also, settle a new city, gold purchase a Library, faith purchase a University, start building an Archaeologist.
0 - Religious Fervor: Honestly, by the time you hit Industrial era, you should be making more than enough gold that it's not necessary. Great to supplement your warmongering...but not really necessary. Even high faith producing don't need to bother with this.
4 - Sacred Sites: I know this is actually an amazing reformation belief, however, it's limited by your own creativity. If you play Byzantines, then you can try to pull off Pagodas, Cathedrals, and Mosques. Other civs will have to play a cat-and-mouse conversion game, something which most players probably aren't interested in. It's very strong and important for Tourism victory, but not something most players would capitalize on. I used it for Indonesia, and it worked wonderfully! If you're doing a Religious/Culture victory, then this is a strong option. Another importance, since Tourism is essential to defending against opposing Ideologies, it gives another source of precious Tourism.
4 - The Glory of God: An amazing Reformation belief, except for one thing, you'll usually finish a tree you really want and get access to your Great Person early. However...this is a major rival to Jesuit Education. Jesuit Education will favor wide-sprawling civilization where you can pump out religious structures and faith-producing buildings. The Glory of God is wonderful for Tall as you can plant your Great Persons, pour Wonders into the capital, influence City-States, plant Academies, etc..!
1 - Underground Sect: Not that great. Pressure isn't really that much. Maybe the same as having one city nearby or trade, but isn't enough. Late game, you could use this to take over another civ without risking angering them. But you have to use Great Prophets to remove the other religions anyway...
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Used this when I played as Polynesia with Papal Primacy. Interestingly, the AI will stop sending Great Prophets, and instead send Missionaries which are just as annoying. While you can easily defend your own cities via "No Open Borders" and Inquisitors, other civs don't tend to have that brilliant thinking. Unity of the Prophets will retain your religion in allies or enemy cities. Whatever damage an opposing Missionary does, you can easily respond back with your own Missionaries. Honestly, it's nice not having to fix the fanatical swath of 1 itinerant prophet.
5 - Charitable Missions: Holy...!!! Amazing! Even if you're not going for Diplomatic Victory, gold is extremely easy to come-by and the AI is less adamant with rigging elections.
1 - Evangelism: Meh! Only removes pressure in your own cities! If you didn't grab Religious Text or Itinerant Preachers, and you hate worrying about religions, then get this. Missionaries and Inquisitors can create an spiritual iron curtain.
5- Heathen Conversion: Ya...I'm totally biased to this. Free unit generators for only 100
? YES!!! Holy Orders + Rampaging Barbarians? Money maker! Barbarian ships raiding your cargo lanes? Go Pope Leo on their Attila the Hunnic ways! I've managed to turn around horrid early Faith-focused games because of this. Focus production on your culture, science, population, or gold; upgrade barbarians you want, and sell the rest!4 - Jesuit Education: Science is key and lifeblood in this game! Pursuing a religion early will set you back technologically and culturally. Having access to Jesuit Education capitalizes on your investment turning your weakness into your greatest strength! Also, settle a new city, gold purchase a Library, faith purchase a University, start building an Archaeologist.
0 - Religious Fervor: Honestly, by the time you hit Industrial era, you should be making more than enough gold that it's not necessary. Great to supplement your warmongering...but not really necessary. Even high faith producing don't need to bother with this.
4 - Sacred Sites: I know this is actually an amazing reformation belief, however, it's limited by your own creativity. If you play Byzantines, then you can try to pull off Pagodas, Cathedrals, and Mosques. Other civs will have to play a cat-and-mouse conversion game, something which most players probably aren't interested in. It's very strong and important for Tourism victory, but not something most players would capitalize on. I used it for Indonesia, and it worked wonderfully! If you're doing a Religious/Culture victory, then this is a strong option. Another importance, since Tourism is essential to defending against opposing Ideologies, it gives another source of precious Tourism.
4 - The Glory of God: An amazing Reformation belief, except for one thing, you'll usually finish a tree you really want and get access to your Great Person early. However...this is a major rival to Jesuit Education. Jesuit Education will favor wide-sprawling civilization where you can pump out religious structures and faith-producing buildings. The Glory of God is wonderful for Tall as you can plant your Great Persons, pour Wonders into the capital, influence City-States, plant Academies, etc..!
1 - Underground Sect: Not that great. Pressure isn't really that much. Maybe the same as having one city nearby or trade, but isn't enough. Late game, you could use this to take over another civ without risking angering them. But you have to use Great Prophets to remove the other religions anyway...
3 - Unity of the Prophets: Used this when I played as Polynesia with Papal Primacy. Interestingly, the AI will stop sending Great Prophets, and instead send Missionaries which are just as annoying. While you can easily defend your own cities via "No Open Borders" and Inquisitors, other civs don't tend to have that brilliant thinking. Unity of the Prophets will retain your religion in allies or enemy cities. Whatever damage an opposing Missionary does, you can easily respond back with your own Missionaries. Honestly, it's nice not having to fix the fanatical swath of 1 itinerant prophet.
GAGA Extrem
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,589
4 - Charitable Missions: Influence boosts from Gold gifts to City-States are increased by 30%.
Works excellent in conjunction with Patronage. A must-have for a diplomacy player.
2 - Evangelism: Missionaries' Spread Religion action erodes existing pressure from other religions.
Situational, but useful if you strife for a world-dominating place for your religion.
2 - Heathen Conversion: Missionaries convert adjacent barbarians to this civilization.
Powerful tool for early game warmongers. I picked it once and got 5 early units that where easily able to handle an enemy AI. If you manage to "presever" a remote barb camp this reform believe can keep on giving for quite a while!
4 - Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.
Strong, but you sacrifice a lot of faith for those buildings that is probably better invested in late-game great people. Works well in conjunction with -20% buy cost from the piety tree.
2 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
Again situational, but one of these units might as well be the turning point for a war. That being said, the price of industrial units is pretty high...
4 - Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.
Really powerful for wide empires. If you can manage to snatch two (or three, hello Theodora!) faith buildings this might as well be an alternative to artifact hunting for the culture game. Also great if you want to play culture and want to adopt a more "defensive" and "local" religion instead of a world church.
5 - The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.
Fantastic. This gives you a lot of flexibility for both faith purchases AND social policy selection. Are you a liberty player that is disappointed by the lack of a GP buy option from your tree? This is your solution!
2 - Underground Sect: Your spies exert religious pressure on the cities they occupy.
Decent early on and in certain situations (combo with trade routes), but overall the impact seems a bit low for a reformation belief. However, keep in mind that this does pretty much allow you to spread your religion EVERYWHERE. So if you go piety first you can infect newly founded cities of your enemy with ease, giving you the potential to spread your religion quickly, avoid geographical bottlenecks and inaccesible regions. I am sure someone will come up with a cool strategy for it at some point!
2 - Unity of the Prophets: Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it).
Situational, but the AI can be quite aggressive with missionaries and prophets. If you end up in a situation where your religion is pushed back by missionaries of a much more powerful one, this might safe you.
Works excellent in conjunction with Patronage. A must-have for a diplomacy player.
2 - Evangelism: Missionaries' Spread Religion action erodes existing pressure from other religions.
Situational, but useful if you strife for a world-dominating place for your religion.
2 - Heathen Conversion: Missionaries convert adjacent barbarians to this civilization.
Powerful tool for early game warmongers. I picked it once and got 5 early units that where easily able to handle an enemy AI. If you manage to "presever" a remote barb camp this reform believe can keep on giving for quite a while!
4 - Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.
Strong, but you sacrifice a lot of faith for those buildings that is probably better invested in late-game great people. Works well in conjunction with -20% buy cost from the piety tree.
2 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
Again situational, but one of these units might as well be the turning point for a war. That being said, the price of industrial units is pretty high...
4 - Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.
Really powerful for wide empires. If you can manage to snatch two (or three, hello Theodora!) faith buildings this might as well be an alternative to artifact hunting for the culture game. Also great if you want to play culture and want to adopt a more "defensive" and "local" religion instead of a world church.
5 - The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.
Fantastic. This gives you a lot of flexibility for both faith purchases AND social policy selection. Are you a liberty player that is disappointed by the lack of a GP buy option from your tree? This is your solution!
2 - Underground Sect: Your spies exert religious pressure on the cities they occupy.
Decent early on and in certain situations (combo with trade routes), but overall the impact seems a bit low for a reformation belief. However, keep in mind that this does pretty much allow you to spread your religion EVERYWHERE. So if you go piety first you can infect newly founded cities of your enemy with ease, giving you the potential to spread your religion quickly, avoid geographical bottlenecks and inaccesible regions. I am sure someone will come up with a cool strategy for it at some point!
2 - Unity of the Prophets: Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it).
Situational, but the AI can be quite aggressive with missionaries and prophets. If you end up in a situation where your religion is pushed back by missionaries of a much more powerful one, this might safe you.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
That is a distinct problem... they should provide the reformation belief if you found a religion later (like Legalism).
also.. does Charitable missions work on ALL CS or just ones with your religion?
ToodleElNoodos
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2011
- Messages
- 187
All! Not bound by religion.
Those buildings take a really long time to build, so getting them earlier is like getting a bunch of free beakers, and the faith costs are pretty reasonable. People don't like Religious Fervor because the algorithm that determines how much faith it costs to make a unit is very unfavorable, so units end up costing a large amount of faith to make in this fashion. The science buildings you can make with Jesuit Education use a different formula that's much more favorable. They use the same formula as Pagodas/Mosques/Cathedrals/Monasteries.
I just wanted to ask a clarification question, would using 2 inquisitors fully remove the religion or reduce it to 1/4th of its original value? I would expect the latter, but that's super strong sounding.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
Actually, it does. I took Reformation before founding a religion, and got the Reformation option the turn after the religion was founded. It won't show up as a selectable set of beliefs when you found the religion, it's only triggered once the religion is established - in the scenario you describe, you should have got the option for a reformation belief the following turn.
