RB13 - Collateral Carnage

Inherited turn. One thing is obvious, there will be no offensive warring with Monty on my turns :)

I whip harbors in in Essen and Dortmund. MM Munich to stay under the happiness limit until the market finishes. Same with Berlin (although it's not building a market). Easily Capture Cordoba, but Isabella still has two cities and we are extremely short of units. I'll have to evaluate continuation of the war in the next few turns. Checking on the trades that Kylearan mentioned, they all will take 9 turns before I can cancel them, so there's not much I can do. Chiming in, I wouldn't have traded them to our enemies so cheaply either. We are 3 turns from Liberalism at a substantial defecit, but the capture of Cordoba will let us keep it up for now. No one else has it, lets hope it stays that way.



Turn 1 - I move our forces into Cordoba to heal. Start Universities in our coastal towns. Will take some serious whipping to get them out, though. I don't know that there's any harm in letting these cities grow into unhappiness for whipping purposes, so that's what I'll do. War weariness lept up after the capture of Cordoba, and I'm really thinking that a peace treaty would be prudent at this point. I'll scout for another turn or two to validate.

Turn 2 - Isabella is defending Valencia with two archers and a spearman, but we can't attack anytime soon as our catapults are still recovering in Cordoba.

Turn 3 - We finish Liberalism first, and now I'm left with a dilemma.



Astronomy would be the obvious choice for free technology, but a major portion of our income is coming from the Colossus, so I'm reluctant to do so right away. The next most expensive available technology is Nationalism, which would let us get a jumpstart on the Taj Mahal and put us on the path to some nice civics along the constitution path, but, with the Pyramids, we already have most of those options. Printing Press is next in order of value, and would bolster our economy with the extra revenue from our villages and towns. It is a full 500 beakers less than Nationalism. I decide, after much deliberation, on Nationalism. Unfortunately, our best productin city, Hamburg, still will take 37 turns to build the Taj Mahal. I'm not sure we can pull that off... Weed? Quite possibly. I start research on guilds next, on the path to banking and economics. I also call for peace with Isabella - her remaining tows are tundra and ice cities, and the war weariness is crippling us.

Liberalism

Turn 4 - We finish the Forbidden Palace in Madrid, improving our distance penalties considerably, allowing me to go back to 80% deficit research for awhile. Very quiet turn. No real trades available.

Turn 5 - University started in Munich.

Turn 6 - Turn 6, we finally meet Mao! He's in the front running, number 3 overall.



Turn 7 - Guilds comes in and we pop a great scientist in Berlin. We could either save him for a golden age or use him to research most of the way to printing press. I opt to save him. Start research on Banking, due in 3 turns. I start Hamburg on the Taj Mahal. It's still 36 turns away, but we've got Nationalism well before any one else, and dangit, I want that wonder. In realated news, checking the trade screen, it seems that Catherine has marble available for trade! Perfect! I trade her deer and 9gpt for marble! That cuts the time to build Taj Mahal considerably.

Turn 9 - Somehow I missed a turn in there. Lets pretend I did nothing during turn 9.

Turn 10 - Cordoba is really feeling the cultural pressure. Drat. I cancel our horses and copper deals.



Well that's really it. We are a tech leader, but we really lack for military right now, and are pushing infrastructure hard. The next player may really want to think about another military buildup. Don't forget to whip the coastal universities once appropriate. Might want to chop a few tundra trees towards the Taj Mahal as well.



Good luck!

The Save
 
Hi,

great that we got to Liberalism first! :goodjob: And I like the Nationalism/Taj Mahal move, even (or because) we need so long to build it. A GA is nice for us, and denies it to our opponents.

Regarding the great scientist, what should we do with him? Do we have an obvious city to build another academy in? At this point in the game, I'm always unsure about whether another academy is still worth it, or if a GA later would be better. I only know that using him for a tech would be a waste. Opinions?

Another thing we should discuss is our research path. Normally, I'd fully agree with a beeline to Economics. With our variant however, might it be better to beeline to cannons instead, to use the window of opportunity for war longer? Like Zeviz, I think it would be nice to swallow Monty's green lands ASAP. What I don't know is whether the detour to Economics pays for itself on our run to cannons.

Another option would be to attack Monty with catapults while going for Economics. One thing I had learned in my no science game is just how powerful catapults can be in high numbers - they are cheaper than cannons so we can replace them quickly, and they still do considerable damage against eveything our opponent has, regardless of tech level. With our tech lead, we could bribe other AIs to attack him first before joining the war a couple of turns later.

So, how to proceed from here?

1) Econimics -> Steel

2) Steel -> Economics

3) Catapult buildup + war vs. Monty (while going for Economics)

Opinions?

Regardless what we decide, I think we need a little bit more military for defense, I'm feeling uneasy about how defenseless we are at the moment.

Roster:
Kylearan
Sharog
Snaproll
xenikos -> UP NOW!
Zeviz -> on deck
Dreylin

-Kylearan
 
There are a couple cities at 40 beakers or so - I looked when that scientist popped. One of them may be worth an academy, but I thought a golden age was a better option. Still vetoable, obviously.

I don't think a catapult buildup is in our best interest right now. The number of catapults we'll need seems prohibitive, going up against city garrison longbows. I think that we shold wait for cannons for our next big push, and that makes option 2 look like a smart move. Our economy is in pretty good shape, and I think delaying economics to get steel is a good move.

I'm uneasy about our defenses too. Should build some more defensive units while we wait on steel, no doubt.
 
saving the scientist will pretty much garantee us another GA when we get steel, thus enable us to build cannons with double the speed.
agree to beeline to steel asap btw.

ps: did we built a shrine in madrid? if not use one of the fishing village to the east to run 2 priests or something. it would give us a raw +40 gpt once madrid gets market grocer and banks.
 
xenikos, you are overdue. You have 12 hours to post something, otherwise you are skipped.

Effective immediately, the 24/48 rule will be strictly imposed. Extensions won't be allowed anymore. Apparently, my relaxed version of the 24/48 rule does not work: Time and time again, people forget even such a small thing like posting that they need longer than 24/48, and I'm getting tired of this game crawling on so slowly. I find it very hard to immerse myself, let alone remember what we had planned.

If players don't post a "got it" after 24 hours, they are skipped. If they don't have posted a turnlog 72 hours after the last save, they are skipped. If too many people will get skipped by this, this game will be retired.

-Kylearan
 
Well I hope that we don't have to retire this game as I'm learning a lot about other people's approaches just by playing it - probably even more than by reading RB reports as in this case the other play styles influence my play style directly. Anyway, I know I haven't been the most reliable/regular player so far, but that period should be over as I am now (almost) completely relocated and my evenings should become my own again! :)

Expect more regular comtributions from me from now on ... except tomorrow!

Dreylin.
 
I might be able to play Wednesday evening, but Friday is more likely. So if somebody can pick it up before Friday, please go ahead. Sorry about that, but I have a busy week.
 
I am really sorry to be a continual source of problems lately, but I've run into another situation (as I explained on the other sucession game I am in):

I'm sorry everyone - a death in the family I learned about yesterday has been overwhelming. I played half of my turn before that, but did not finish, and I am leaving to go out of town for a week. Consider me skipped until I report back in.
 
Well I can't play until Thursday night, so I won't post and "I got it" until then....

Too knackered tonight from moving and lugging boxes around today to try taking this tonight. :sleep:
 
1300AD (Inherited Turn)

OK review a few things ... Civics seem OK, though we could move to Free Religion sometime ... Oh, we're in Org Religion and some of our cities aren't Jewish ... and one of them is building the Taj Mahal!?!?!?

Berlin would produce a Missionary fastest, but is 3turns off University so I use the excess Pop in Madrid to whip one out.

I also whip Theatre in Cordoba since the Pop point will starve off next turn anyway.

Back to Civics, I think we could make a good case for going to Free Speech soon (+50% commerce in Capital is 28g; we have 12towns for 24g), and possibly Universal Sufferage, but I'll leave that for the end of my turns by which time we may have Free Market also.

I knock the culture slider up to 10% for two reasons; it gives us extra happy which allows us to grow our biggest cities, and it also gives us culture output in our recently captured cities to fight Monty's culture.

I'm planning on a build-up set of turns; infrastructure; defensive units from Military cities, and Religion spread to maximise the use of our state religion.

Renegotiate deals with Alex (+1gpt for our crabs) & Kublai (7gpt for our other Crab rather than our stone)

Save the Scientist for a GA.

OK, off we go.


Oh, and someone forgot to tell be about that Barb Axeman about to hit North of Berlin, we're going to lose one of our Deer.


1305AD

Cordoba: Theatre->Buddhist Monastery (cheapest Culture building)

Judaism spreads to Izzy's new Iceball - sorry, city.

Not going to cut the Tundra trees near Hamburg as they can be lumbermilled later, instead start on a Grassland forest which can be farmed to allow growth.


IBT: Cat cancels Open Borders; apparently we're her worst enemy. (at least she's still selling us Marble!)
Barb pillages Deer Camp.


1310AD

Madrid: Library->Market

Missionary reaches Hamburg; Taj Mahal goes down from 20 turns to 18.


1315AD

Banking->Gunpowder

Berlin: University->Bank
Salamanca: Forge->Library
Toledo: Forge->Barracks

:sleep:


1320AD

Forest chop cuts 3turns off Taj Mahal.

:sleep:


1325AD

:Sleep:


1330AD

Frankfurt: Market->Longbowman

:sleep:


1335AD

:sleep:


IBT: Alex asks us for Philosophy; sure, you're our bestest buddy!


1340AD

Gunpowder->Chemistry

Cologne: Longbowman->Longbowman

:sleep:


1345AD

Whip Market in Madrid

:sleep:


IBT: Monty declares on Izzy. He should finish her off in short order ... do we want to help?

1350AD

Madrid: Market->Barracks (but can be vetoed)

Leave some Workers for the next guy to use and call it a day.


Fairly gentle set of turns ... especially compared to my last lot! :)

Scientist is sleeping between Berlin & Frankfurt. We are up /at least/ Gunpowder & Nationalism on everyone else, have 7turns left on Chemistry, but could probably still get the Economics Great Merchant if we wanted to switch. We are currently at 70%/10%/20% and losing a couple of gpt, and Cordoba has carved out some space for itself.

Didn't build as much military, nor spread religion as much as I'd intended, but we build stuff so slowly! I also resisted whipping Essen & Dortmund as the Unis would have taken 4Pop.

Here's the save.
 
Hi,

good catch noticing that the Taj Mahal city lacks our state religion! :goodjob:

Regarding the 10% culture increase; I'm not sure I like that. Most of the time, research is better off with slightly smaller cities and 0% culture, so just doing it to help the culture war against Monty has a big price attached to it. Maybe hiring an artist in the relevant cities would be better. How established are Monty's borders there? Maybe all culture, artists, and cultural buildings won't be able to help anyway.

I agree about free religion, we should definately swap! If we are still the only one with Nationalism, we can even afford to lose organized religion now. I also agree swapping to universal suffrage; normally I'd advocate free speech, but with our hammer-poor empire, suffrage might be the better choice.

I'm looking forward to cannons! :hammer:

Roster:
Kylearan -> on deck
Sharog
Snaproll
xenikos
Zeviz -> UP NOW!
Dreylin -> swapped with Zeviz

-Kylearan
 
Yeah, 4Pop may be worthwhile, but they were at 5Pop when I started and I didn't look often enough to catch them at the start of 4Pop. They are both doing reasonably well as is, and are starting to run a second specialist to generate hammers rather than using ocean tiles.

The big downside of Sufferage over Representation is that we'd lose the +3 Happy in our top 3 cities and that would reduce our productivity probably almost as much as it raised. We also probably want to spread our religions a bit wider before we leave Org Religion to take advantage of the Missionaries without Monastery clause.

Chemistry in 7, and then Steel in 17 IIRC, I think it's be well worth the detour to Economics to hopefully grab the GM, but importantly get our hands on Free Market for extra trade routes and research boost.

Use of the Culture slider is (I think) a personal preference which some like and others don't. In our position of Tech lead with a stable economy, I think we can afford to spend the 10%. Monty's borders near us are fairly soft - and that's exactly the reason to do it; if we can push the borders back then it's a lot shorter walk for our forces through hostile territory when we declare war.

With Monty about to toast Izzy, it may be worth taking to opportunity to grab another of her Iceballs ... but of course WW would cripple us, so maybe not. :crazyeye:
 
:old: Guys, I hope you are working on defensive units, because while I know you need infrastructure, it seemed you were spread rather thin. It seems like you are trying to stretch yourself a bit between the two. :old:
 
I have to agree with our fellow lurker Clovis here: We have too few units! To call our defenses even "cardbord cutouts" would give them too much credit. :p Most cities are defended by only one unit, in some cases a warrior (in our capital!) or an archer. And all this on Epic speed, where military buildup takes longer - we are just begging to be invaded! Since we will want to go to war as soon as we have cannons anyway, I will start our military buildup on my turns. But going through our cities, I see that Dreylin has done so already, to the best of our limited abilities - two cities are building longbows, one barracks. Yay us!

Essen whips the university. Dortmund will be unhappy long enough already, so I refrain from using the whip there. Instead, I hire two scientists, increasing science output. Salamance whips the library. Madrid is unhappy already, so gets reconfigured to max production. Cordoba switches from building a monastery to granary instead - once our cannons have "corrected" the borders there, a monastery won't be needed.

I sell Drama to Monty for 320 gold, and sign open borders with Catherine. I lower culture to 0% again, as this will increase our overall beaker output and only Cordoba's borders are worth fighting for culturally, which would take as long as if we do it with cannons later. I also increase science to 100%.

We would get Economics in only 6 turns, so...despite what I had said earlier, I switch research to Economics and hope that its extra trade route will pay for the detour.

In 1375AD, we completed the Taj Mahal! Only then did I see that we have a second great person sitting in Berlin. I immediately use him and the great scientist who had been sitting outside of Berlin to double our GA.

I've decided the one turn of anarchy is worth the swap to free markets and free religion despite our GA. We lose the building bonus and free missionaries from organized religion, but free religion has lower upkeep and a science bonus which makes it superior in my view. I have not switched from bureaucracy to free speech, as I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not, and it would have cost us an additional turn of anarchy. We can think about switching to it as well after the GA - what do you think? It has low upkeep instead of medium. I would do it.

I have sold stone to Catherine for 8gpt, and deer to Toku for 9gpt. Also, Toku had asked for Nationalism - and after long consideration, I gave it to him. He's cautious now.

The Aztecs have captured Valencia and Murcia. Looking at the power graph, they won't be easy to invade!



Seeing the steep rise in Mao's curve, I wonder what he is up to? Luckily, we have a tech advantage, thanks to our GNP.



I have built several longbows and some knights for zone defense/pillager interception and some catapults we can upgrade once we know steel. Chemistry comes in next turn, so I suggest building some grenadiers next. After Steel, I would go for Printing Press -> Replacable Parts (we need production!) -> Rifling next.

I think we will be able to declare on Monty on Snaproll's turns. :hammer: Keep some units in our eastern half, as we are quite vulnerable against landings.


Roster:
Kylearan
Sharog -> UP NOW!
Snaproll -> on deck
xenikos (auto-skip)
Zeviz (AWOL?)
Dreylin

-Kylearan
 
Kylearan said:
In 1375AD, we completed the Taj Mahal! Only then did I see that we have a second great person sitting in Berlin. I immediately use him and the great scientist who had been sitting outside of Berlin to double our GA.

It wasn't a Great Merchant by any chance was it!? :mischief:
 
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