RBC12D - Fall of Rome - Vandals (Demigod)

[Rubberjello]

@akots: Number one rule in SGs: No reloads to experiment with different futures if the outcome still has some bearing upon decisions being made by your successers. (at least, that is what I think you did in your "troops" point above?)

About your "No Dromons" strategy. What happens if Eastern Rome doesn't lose another city in Asia Minor for a long time? We would be screwed and possibly lose the game. I know the risk is small, but it is still there. Why take it?

 

[Gobi Bear]

Originally posted by Justus II

I guess it must have been different design decisions by the two different scenario developers, right Gobi?

Actually I designed both. But the Middle Age map was set up to allow a land route PAST Constantinople without having to tread through the city. That is how the First Crusade got to the Holy Land, so I wanted to allow that possibility. A lot of very interesting history with those Crusades, including some that attribute much of the disintegration of Byzantium to the abuse they received from Crusader armies marching through their territory.

Fall of Rome, OTOH, was set up to use as consistent a map as possible with Rise of Rome. Leaving the sea lane helped protect Eastern Rome and make her dromons important. Since Eastern Rome historically "won" this scenario, we figured that was a reasonable was to go.

Of course it does look strange that we have it in 4 of the Conquests and it is done a bit differently in each.

 

[Gobi Bear]

Speaking of scenario design, I do have a Fall of Rome variant where you play as either half of Rome. If anyone is interested in giving it a try, I'd be happy to send you a copy to experiment with. I'd like some feedback on it.

Not sure if you guys are in to MP or not, but Fall of Rome is very interesting in MP, especially with human players for Rome. It just takes a pretty darn long time...

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Rubberjello
... Number one rule in SGs: No reloads to experiment with different futures if the outcome still has some bearing upon decisions being made by your successers. ... About your "No Dromons" strategy. What happens if Eastern Rome doesn't lose another city in Asia Minor for a long time? We would be screwed and possibly lose the game. I know the risk is small, but it is still there. Why take it?

@Reloading. Ugh, I could have just told that it is OK and that was my feeling based on experience. I then confirmed it. And it's easy to handle. Just do something opposite, continue RoP. Anyhow, thanks for pointing out. Be sure it is not repeated. And I thought no goto orders is number one...

@Dromons. We need about 5 or 6 of these ships for invasion to make sense. Two at their current building sites will not help. And we just don't have enough coastal cities to build that many. Also, just imagine, we load bunch of warlords on them and go... where? Alexandria? And Byzanthines sink them all together with warlords. We can probably rush one or two in Constantinople. It would be shorter route and no possibility of sinking. Though our current armies don't fit into these little boats.

@Losing. This possibility just does not exists. We cannot lose. Even if some other civ (Sassanids or Huns) gets 8th Byzantine city, we are doing OK in score with current VP locations only.

 

[Gobi Bear]

I agree with the "build Dromons as best we can plan". Historically the Vandals actually did have a good navy ... that's how they ended up settling in North Africa. We may not use them, but better safe that sitting around sorry.

I think it might make sense to take out the tough nut (Constantinople) first, leaving the easier two cities around to be wiped out when we wanted to push it to 8 cities. I'd hate to have to wipe out 20+ defenders in the capital city and depend on being able to do that in 1 turn.

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Gobi Bear
Speaking of scenario design, I do have a Fall of Rome variant where you play as either half of Rome. If anyone is interested in giving it a try, I'd be happy to send you a copy to experiment with. I'd like some feedback on it.

Not sure if you guys are in to MP or not, but Fall of Rome is very interesting in MP, especially with human players for Rome. It just takes a pretty darn long time...

Very interested in both scenarios and MP indeed. Want to try MP for a long time. I guess the most difficult in MP is to find a good team of partners.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

Originally posted by Gobi Bear
Speaking of scenario design, I do have a Fall of Rome variant where you play as either half of Rome. If anyone is interested in giving it a try, I'd be happy to send you a copy to experiment with. I'd like some feedback on it.

Not sure if you guys are in to MP or not, but Fall of Rome is very interesting in MP, especially with human players for Rome. It just takes a pretty darn long time...

That sounds like a great new succession game! But I would love to experiment with it solo and provide you with feedback! Could you upload it to the Civfanatics File Upload System and then paste the link into this thread?

 

[Gobi Bear]

Yes. I have it at work. I'll try and get that done tomorrow when I'm back in the office. The scenario intro text is still the same (and needs to change), but otherwise this variant is ready to get tested. It uses a few locked alliances to force some (but not all) of the barbarians into leading attacks on Rome.

 

[Justus II]

@Gobi - Actually, I knew you designed them both, that's why I made the comment And the ability to get around Constantinople in the Middle Ages scenario was actually well thought out, it allows ships to pass through, but only for the Byz, and even ground units aren't getting through without an ROP. Makes sense for the Crusades, but they weren't likely to let any barb tribes traipse through their lands in this time frame. (Although it could sure come in handy at the moment!).

And I would love to check out your unlocked scenario, I had actually been playing around in the editor to make East Rome playable, but had a lot of unanswered questions, especially about how to handle the VPs, etc so the Human can't just sit back and win on points. And an SG does sound cool, after I get a chance to try it solo. Might even try the MP, I've never done that before, usually too constrained by time.

@Akots - Confirm what RJ said, loading a save to look at the info that is currently available is OK, (propose deals, check costs of alliance, etc), but actually taking actions to see the results is not allowed.

Dromons- I didn't intend it to be a cross-med invasion, just a few to ferry troops from Constantinople to Asia Minor, and end the turn back in port. We don't want to get into a fight on the seas with them. As for those being built in Italy, I guess it couldn't hurt, but they may not make it around to the straights, so I still think we need to whip a few in Constantinople (once we take it, of course). I definitely think that needs to be our first target, it will be the hardest, and once we have it will have more options and a better idea of what it will take to win it. It will also bounce their capital into asia minor most likely, reducing flip risks in Thessalonika.

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Justus II
...Might even try the MP, I've never done that before, usually too constrained by time. ...

Yes, thats the biggest problem. But 2-3 hour sessions can be OK. It might be a very interesting game in MP without AIs and not so long. Just imagine 8 human players fighting for the 8th Roman city to get the VP! And 2 Roman side players struggling to take out as many others with them as possible so that at least one survives. Too bad, no difficulty bonus.

I've got the point about loading and checking the outcome of actions. After games is finished then it can be analyzed.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Before I post a lengthy report, I'd like to make some comments.

Doc, you've got a lot of options on the table!

Unfortunately, this absolutely isn't true. Our total military in Greece for my 1st turn are a Marauder, 1HC, 1 Warlord, a redlined and a healthy Army, plus a SoD of 4 Trebs, 2 Warlords and 2 Marauders already in ER territory.
More important, I cannot get anything there at all.
How on earth should I try to threaten 2 core cities with ~10 Legions and prevent Thessaloniki from flipping?


Next is - losing/retaking cities: Well, why not? Which cities? The one that supplies all of our Temples, or that one completely out of reach of any troops?


That leads to:

We have 4 cities/VP sites in N. Italy with a TOTAL of 4 defenders, all marauders/spear

Bingo. You hit the nail.


Dreams of Dromons - well, historically, the Vandals had a large navy, but IIRC at that time their home was in Tunesia ...

Option E) Surround Singidunum instead of taking it: Good idea, but the Vivigoths already have (minor) troops adjacent, and 2 real SoD approching from 2 sides

The RoPs speed things up, and they allow us to score from the Frankish VP location. I like them - but will not renew them, for diplo reasons.


End of rant. Report + discussion will follow soon.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

RBD12D -510AD

Frustrating set of turns. Really frustrating.

Umm…what a mess. Not criticizing at all, but after trying to familarize with the game for half an hour I’m still pretty unclear what to do next. I especially don't know what the Workers and Migrants are doing everywhere. Don’t want to cancel the RoP with the Anglo-Saxons right now, I have no clue where their SoDs are heading for, if they’re going after Barb Camps, I hope they’ll leave our territory soon. We’ll need more troops as mobile defence force at home, I don’t feel comfortable with all those fellow barbarian troops next door. True, we could eliminate them with our existing Home Guard, but what if they sneak attack? I prefer to have some HCs to reinforce the cities next to the SoDs, I never want to loose Syracuse or Hippo.
Crete lacks a Harbor (no Iron – no Legions?), so maybe that could be a target soon.
Change Syracuse to Warlord, I just feel safer with a few of them in our core.
New Syracuse (Spearman) to Barracks, same for New Zucchabar, Anti Byzantine War Camp and Vandal Milan.
Fire the Governor in Thessaloniki and starve it.
New Saldae on Spear – it already has Barracks, and the chop would complete a Worker there this turn otherwise.
Salonae (Spear) to Dromon
Hawk around WM for small change.
We have 18185Vp (1950 from locations), Eastern Rome 28365

Dare to hit Enter.

IBT:
Anglo- Saxons cancel the RoP, he wants Wine to renew it, so I decline. His units are on leaving vector anyway.
Anglo-Saxons and Visigoths sign MA against Celts, A-S declares.
Someone (Byzantines, I guess) kills a Visigoth Marauder next to New Cartannae. Rather odd, those Dromons near Constantinople don’t attack our stack there.
Visigoths approach Singidunum.
Huns and Franks sign against Celts, Huns declare.
Frankish units head back to Marseilles, a Spear moves into our borders in N Italy (?).

Quell a resitor in Thessaloniki.
Syracuse (Warlord)-> Warlord
Saldae (HC) -> Spear
New Syracuse (Barracks) ->Spear


Turn 1: 512AD

We are at 18385VPs (+200/turn without any combats), ER at 28815 (+450) but they lost Cyrene to the Sassanids in the interturn (5 total now)
Battle for Singidunum is delayed for one more turn, there’s an Elite Legion on top, no capable Visigoths next to it, and I think we need more troops. Reinforcements take forever, they have to pass a Roman tile or leave the road. Try to fortify enough units (Slaves mainly) to keep all the roads open. Move the injured Army to Thessaloniki to heal, and the healthy one towards Constantinople. In the hindsight, I should have pulled everything out of Constantinople's borders and thrown against Athens
Whip Dromon in Vandal Ravenna.
More starving for Thessaloniki.

IBT:
A-S want an Alliance against the Celts, decline. Ack, they move all their troops back through our territory (but the definitely don’t aim for us ATM).
More Visigoths move next to Singidunum, and A-S towns –are they at war? Visigoths settle near New Carthage, the only place I wanted to get settled, too.

Cartannae (HC) -> HC
Cagliari (HC) -> HC
Panormus (Worker)-> Migrant
New Cartage (Raider) -> Spear (will complete with chop)
New Zucchabar (Barracks) -> Spear
Vandal Ravenna (Dromon) -> Dromon

Turn 2: 514AD
Battle for Singidunum:
Vet HC –Elite Legion: Takes off 1HP, retreats
Vet HC – Vet legion: Takes off 1HP, HC dies, Legion promotes
Vet Warlord – 4/5 Legion: Warlord wins with 1 HP left, Temple destroyed
Vet Warlord – 4/5 Legion: -4/-4, Library
Vet Warlord – 3/3 legion: -2/-3
Vet Warlord – 3/3 Legion: -3/-3, Marauder
Vet Warlord -3/3 Legion: -0/-3, Elite, Church
Elite Warlord – 3/3 Legion: -1/-3
Elite Warlord -3/3 Legion: -1/-3, Colosseum, Marauder
Elite Warlord -3/3 Legion: -1/-3
Elite Warlord -3/3 Garrison: -0/-3
Elite Warlord -1/5 Legion: -2/-1
9 legions and a Garrison, luckily I waited more turn.
One Worker captured, Singidunum razed (3 Slaves).
Vandal Singidunum founded on spot, set on Barracks.

Traffic jam on the road down South, I’ll found at least one more city next turn to help here. Cannot get a single unit towards Greece

I now keep some HCs in our core, they currently cannot reach the S anyway, also, I move a few units towards Italy.

Whip Dromon in Salonnae (mainly to get rid of Romans).
A-S are annoyed, I don’t want to risk something here and offer him our Gold as sign of goodwill (the resource, not our money). He turns polite – this dedicates us to peace, but I figure we don’t want to fight him anyway, and if we want, we always can demand him to leave.
Huns have 1534gp...
Map brokering for small change.

Move minor SoD next to Constantinople; won’t be able to take it without assistance, but those are the only troops available down there anyway, and I think we’ll get (unwanted) help from the Visigoths soon.

F8: Vandals 19715 ER 29215 Sassanids 5100

IBT:
Gazillions of Germanic units move in all possible directions; at least, the Anglo – Saxons seem to move out slowly.
Ack:

Absolutely no units nearby before to (possibly) surpress the flip – now figure it would have been Thessaloniki (resistance there ends, btw).
And since it is connected to the Iron, a Legion shows up there..and it shrinks to size1 (drafting?).On the other hand, this could turn to our advantage, giving us an easy target to eliminate – that is, if I can get any troops over there!
Hippo (HC) -> HC

Turn 3: 516AD

Found New Whatsoever to open up a route down to Greece.
Grr...add Slave to Vandal Singidunum to whip Barracks there (we really need those to speed up healing the SoD ), and who’s left? A Roman.

Get some troops toward the humilating flip, and try to block all roads for Visigoths (mainly by fortifying Slaves).

Double-whip a Harbor in Thessaloniki to get rid of Roman citizens.
ER is still at 6 lost.

IBT:
Accidentially moved a unit into Ostrogoth territory, and wow, we don’t have a RoP – they ask us to leave. Sure we will.
Lots of Ostrogoth units (an odd mixture of Raiders and HC) moves Eastwards?
Gazillions of Visigoths head for Salonae.
Interesting: Celts and Ostrogoth sign against Sassanids, Osthrogoths declare.
Oh wow, a Garrison moves out of Athens –I’m frightened.

Thessaliniki (Harbor) -> Dromon for now (more important, it doesn’t flip!)
Vandal Singidunum (Barracks) -> Spear
Saldae (Spear) -> HC
Hadrametum (Worker) -> Barracks
New Cartage (Spear) -> Raider
Our cultural borders expand everywhere – don't be too impressed, even most Barbarians have more culture than we do.

Turn 4: 518AD
Lots of movements, placing Slaves everywhere. I’ll get at least 5HC to Salonae before the Visigoths get there. Before you ask: I cannot get that units to Athens or Constantiople.
Just because I can, I use our Trebs against Constantinople – there are at least 4 Vet Legions in the city (not really surprising, if you ask me).
Upgrade a Vet Raider.
Whip Dromon in Po War Camp, to assist in the siege of infamous Salonae.

IBT:
Lots of movements (don’t ask..)
Ostrogoth and Clets sign against the Huns, too (Ostrogoths declare)

Warlord from the Scourge
Po War Camp (Dromon) -> Spear
Cirta (Worker) -> Barracks
New Tingis (Spear) -> Spear

Turn 5: 520AD
Darn, ER is down to 7 lost! Will reach Salonnae not before next turn...by far not enough forces at Constantinople.
(Minor correction: At least 5 Vet Legion there)
I stop moving troops to Greece, guess we’ll strike Franks next.
Either we’re on the sure road to victory next turn, or we’ll have to fight our neighbors for some time.
Standings: Vandals 20390 ER 30405 Sassanids 6490
Please please please survive one more single turn, Theo!

IBT:
Endless movements.
Visigoths and Huns sign against the Ostrogoths!
Anglo-Saxons and Huns sign against Eastern Rome.
Anglo-Saxons and Huns sign against Ostrogoths, oh no, they’ll be marching all the way back now.
Huns declare on Sassanids, who cares, go on!

And then this:

Empty world:

I’m deeply depressed. There simply was no way to get any troops down to the South, or faster to Salonae. The RoP with the Visigoths was not the problem, they mainly blocked the roads in unclaimed territory. And if I hadn’t taken Singidunum, the Visigoths would have gotten it the next turn.
I have no idea what we could have made better, maybe keeping a strike force in Italy would have saved it. With 2 lone HC there, we should have been able to retake Salonnae...

Vandal Aquilae (Barracks) -> Spear
New Saldae (Spear) -> Spear
Syracuse (HC) -> HC
Zucchabar (HC) -> HC
Aleria (HC) -> HC
New Carthage (Raider) -> Raider

Humilating. Really. The only not-so-bad news is that Sassanids are “only” at 13275VPs, so they got around 6785; the reward was surprisingly low again. And we have a strong Miltary compared to everyone except the Huns (average).

Turn 6: 522AD
Immediatedly claim the VP locations of former Athens and Constantinople. Redirect all Elite troops towards Franks, they have lost 4 cities already. We can reach 4 of their cities on the road net and strike with HCs/ Armies the turn we declare; for some reasons, I’d prefer no alliances this time...
Found Vandal Rome (guess where?). This time, I’ll keep a reaction force in Greece; could be interesting again, depending on how the war between Visigoths and Ostrogoths turns out. Especially interesting: The Visigoths have a total population of 15...and 15 cities.

Standings: Vandals 20615 Sassanids 13275 Ostrogoths 3925
I’m pretty confident we can still win this, although it’ll take some more time.

IBT:
As expected, a hundred million of Anglo-Saxons in our core turn around and move East again.
Hm, the Franks seem to anticipate what’s coming...they move all their troops out of our lands, and amass a mini-SoD (4 Raiders, 2 Pillagers) near our Italian cities. No danger, I do have some HCs there already.

Panormus (Migrant) -> Migrant
New Zucchabar (Spear) -> Spear

Turn 7: 524AD
20890VPs... Sassanids at 13405.
Slowly gather troops against Franks. Found Vandal Athens (I wouldn’t found that many cities normaly, but with the immediate culture I think they’ll be pretty safe from sneak attacks). However, I won’t risk to found any cities in Asia minor, just bring some troops over there – hey, we should have one of the largest navies in the world!

IBT:
Lots of stupid movements. The Franks are not attacking us.

Cartennae (HC) -> HC
New Carthage (Raider) -> Raider

Turn 8: 526AD
Move troops westwards. Found VandalVW (sorry, couldn’t resist – German spelling for Constantinople is ‘Konstantinopel’).
I’m doing the best I can to annoy the Visigoths by blocking their roads.
Diplomacy is another frustrating issue; everyone except Visigoths, Anglo-Saxons and Franks is ‘annoyed’; we could trade Wines to Huns for 200g, and Furs to Sassanids for one of their spare Luxuries; don’t do it now, we don’t really need more lux or gp, but it could be handy to sweaten some MA.
At some point, we should try to get those useless techs from Shapur, they will give some more desperatedly needed VPs.

IBT:
Celts and Anglo-Saxons sign peace treaty.

Hippo Regius (HC) -> HC
No surprise, considering my incredible luck this round:

Turn 9: 528AD
Ack, I cannot even move our Dromons out of the Adriatic Sea, because a Frankish Galley blocks the chokepoint at RL Tarent :wall:
More moving; return some Workers to our core, some of our better cities are working unimproved tiles.
Investigate Marseilles for as much as 15gp, since I have absolutely no idea what defence we’ll have to expect:

IBT:
Franks and Huns ally against Sassanids.

Warlord from the Scourge
Rusicade (HC) -> HC
Lilybaeum (HC) -> HC
New Cartage (Raider) -> WTH, it is conneceted to the road net now? I’ll pillage the tile, there was a Worker N of it, but I thought he would chop.
New Hippo Regius (HC) -> HC
Milan (Barracks) -> Spear

Turn 10: 530AD
Vandal Aquilaea also has some ugly black birds flying around. Newly built HC in Rusicade is killed – c’mon, there were 3 more units, but no, kill the HC, not the Spears.
Pillage the road to New Carthage with a Pillager
Franks still block the sea route.

Notes:
*There are several Workers and a few Military units fortified on roads, now with our movement done, they should return to work soon.
* I built up Military in 1) Cirta (5 HC) for Marseilles, 2) Northern Italy and the Alps for Grenoble, and Bordeaux + Avignon. Elites could hit that Frankish stack (no clue where they’re going, but apparently we are not their target. Have an eye on that Warlord next to Ravenna.
* Consider Investigating, it’s dead cheap.
* I deliberatedly left sufficient troops on the Balkan theatre, guess we’ll kill off one of the Goths at some point. And I don’t want a similar debacle like in Italy.
* Rusicade is maxed for growth, I think it’ll loose a citizen to the Plague on the interturn.
* The Dromon builds are placeholders, I have no clue if we ever need them, but I think even Spears won’t be finished for sure before this is over.

I apologize for uninspired gameplay in the last few turns, but missing the Byzantines for one single turn and the flip and the Plague and those never ending Anglo-Saxon moves and no Leader from all those Elite victories was rather demotivating




The Save

Edited for spelling errrors

 

[Justus II]

Doc,
Wow, tough set of turns, but it sounds like you did everything you could, and now we are adapting to take on the Franks. Got it, I will try to take a look at the save a little later.

ROSTER:
JustusII - Got it
Rubberjello - On Deck
Gobi Bear
Akots
Doc Tsiolkovski - Just played, taking a relaxing Adriatic cruise in a Dromon

EDIT: I had trouble with the link above, so here's an updated link to the Save

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Discussion:

Why Franks?
- They have lost 4 already.
- We can overrun them in a single turn.
- They have no Horses, so even if we need several turns, they won't reach us.
- They have two VP locations (ok, we're currently occupying one of those).
- They have nothing to offer for the other AIs-
- They were reachable; Ostrogoths or Anglo-Saxon would need another 5+ turns.
- I already marched the troops there, so you would waste a number of turns.
- Most important: They are useless. They are marching troops through our land without sense just to annoy us - the A-S at least know where they're heading for. I wait for a sneak attack every turn. And we will never need them as Allies (this saves the Visigoths IMHO): They cannot reach anyone except Anglos, but the later will wipe them out in 2 turns.
- Once they are gone, the Anglos will settle that area with undefendable towns, I already saw some Migrant/ Spear combos. We have enough fast troops in France to take care of them.

Let's kill the Franks, and then the Anglos (Exeter looks tempting, with pop 8).

The Visigoth have no town bigger pop 1, so we won't get any conquest points here. And they are rather strong and Gracious, we may need them against someone else.

Something that really did hurt me in both rounds was the complete lack of any Barracks near the frontline. When fighting off the Sassanids, the easternmost Barracks turned out to be in our capital...
Now, with Rax in Italy, I could have upgraded the 2 Marauders there, loaded them onto the Dromon and perhaps retaken Salonae. Also, I had to wait 3 turns for healing in the Singidunum area. I could have whipped them everywhere, but that would have wasted the shields already accumulated.
I agree, it doesn't really matter if Spears are Vet or not, but Barracks are crucial for upgrading and healing; they cost 1 pop, so join a Slave in a new found city, and rush them next turn.

Edit: Sorry, there's a . after zip in my link to the save, use the one from Justus.

 

[Charis]

I can relate, though not to the same degree - what a brutal set of turns. In Vizigoth game we did (what seemed) everything right then a very odd timing on the part of the AI led to us being on garrison away from letting Vandals take out West Rome instead of us. That would have been a very demoralizing outcome. Fortunately... the bonus isn't as big as expected, and you guys get some more life out of the game. I like your logic on the Franks next for sure. The 'can take out in one round' factor is huge. Be careful though, that you don't get unlucky at one, take out 3, and see someone else kill the last. So preferably no one else will be at war with them.

Charis

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

@Charis: Guess not half as frustrating as RB9....At least, we're still winning.

What really killed me wasn't missing the final blow on Cleo; this was at least partially caused by ourselves, by having too many troops in some areas (the Singidunum stack of turn 2 would have easily taken Constantinople), and too few in some others. Also, it may have been possible to keep more of the roads open; dunno, I'm blaming no one here. No, the humilation is that the RNG additionally insults you wherever it can, Flips, 2x Plague, that stupid Frankish Galley preventing us from securing 2 VP locations, no Leaders,...

 

[Justus II]

Looked at the save, and we are in good shape. At least with E. Rome gone, we are "off the clock," no one else is going to win on points. Thanks for the investigate tip, Doc, for less than 80g I was able to view all 4 target towns, which was good, as all have 4 spears except the last one I checked, Bordeux has 6 (probably because it's a VP location). So I will probably take one turn to position troops, cancel the ROP, and then hit turn 2. Another advantage, is then I can kill their Dromon! They also appear to have been nice enough to leave stacks wandering N. Italy, so our Elite warlords have something to do while the H.Cav takes the cities! I really think this will be a 2-turn war, does anyone have preferences for our next target? Vizigoths look weak, but a little spread out. Hopefully they have enough roaming units to give a decent VP bonus, the actual conquest won't be much. Anglos do have too many units roaming our lands, I don't want to tangle with them if we don't have to. I'd love to hammer the Sassinids for what they have done to us, but that's just not feasible.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I still think the Anglos are next. We can reach several of their town the turn we declare, including pop 8 Exeter. And they have at least 3 Spear/Migrant combos wandering around in S France/ N Italy, so any newly found town here should fall to a single HC.
And their troops in our territory can be handled. Any surplus attackers will be already in the East. Only problem is our rep, we have a deal for 13 more turns...Speaking about rep: Don't forrget to move the HC from the Frankish VP location before you declare!

 

[Justus II]

Thanks for the reminder, I saw him sitting there, but probably would have forgot to wake him! I will make 'contingency' plans for the Anglos, but if we have that long on a deal, I would hope we could knock out the Vizigoths first.

 

[Gobi Bear]

The Fall of Rome variant I mentioned is here:

Rome Everlasting

This is the one where you play as Eastern or Western Rome and fend off the barbarians.

UnZIP it into your Scenarios folder and then access it from the Civ-Content menu item. The in-game scenario intro text needs some updating, but otherwise it should be ready to test.

The changes from the Fall of Rome that shipped with Conquests go something like this:

- Update the scenario name and description
- Change which civs are human playable
- Add locked alliance of Sassanids vs. Rome
- Add locked alliance of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Vandals vs. Rome
- Add locked alliance of Ostrogoths and Huns vs. Rome
- Allow colonies in desert
- Change War Weariness from High to Low for the Imperialism Government
- Military police to 1 in Imperialism
- Harbor and Walls for Constantinople
- Harbor for Alexandria