RBC5 - Feudalistic Mongols OPEN SG C3C 1.12

[Grimjack]

RBC5_Feudalistic Mongols 630BC to......

Hmm, we are the fearsome Mongols, and we are in the possession of one single horseman. I will say, more horse to our people.

IBT: Hannibal of Carthage says he will give us scrolls of infinite wisdom, if we just give him 37 gold. After giving the gold to him, I discover the trick is to sell scrolls of infinite wisdom. I put Hannibal up on the list. Greeks start SunTzu after completing Great Wall of Athens.

610BC Annoyed at Hannibal, I kill off a warrior of the white tribe for looking at me.

IBT: Trondheim completes Hanging gardens

590BC Found Ulaangom near Bananas and a beautiful oasis. I need to sooth my nerves a bit after the nerve of Hannibal.

IBT: Tabriz: Settler->Worker, Choybalsan: Worker->Worker, Hoyd: Riots. ƒ¼

570BC Give Hoyd a taxman. We seem to be lacking money. Tosontsengle is founded in the balmy north. I neatly avoid a lynchmob as I start a small luxuries tax to keep Karakorum happy. No travelling alone in the countryside any longer.

IBT: Ereen: worker->worker

550BC Carthage now has Monotheism, so much for our gambit. Best estimates of man in charge if science tells us we can do no better than 20 turns on Feudalism which of course is the goal. I will continue on Monotheism, and save money, and see if we can buy something or other instead.

IBT: Greece and Carthage sign peace. Darhan: Spear->Horse,

530BC Pop a hut and get maps. Checked with Alaxander, he will not pay us either Monotheism, nor Feudalism for an alliance against the Zulu.

IBT: Tabriz worker->Market ( Time to grow. )

510BC Start a few forestchops.

IBT: Greece and Carthage sign alliance against Scandinavia. Wonder if they know Ragnar will have Zerks real soon now.
Ta-Tu: Courthouse->Market, Hovd: Temple->Harbour, Dalandz Barracks->Spear,

490 Karakorum grows and gets a taxman, as Market is ready in one turn anyway. For some reason we are falling further and further behind in techs. Wonder why, with no income and no research¡K¡K
In 13 turns, we will have most of our income back. Lets all hope there still are an AI or two that is behind. At the moment, Zulus are most backwards, followed by Ragnar and Celts who both lack a tech. ( Different techs, but we have no funds. )

IBT: Karakorum: Market->Temple, Kazan Granary->Worker, Ulan: Granary->Market, Choyr manages to riot at size two in spite of lux tax.

470BC Our horsemen let us know they are alive by sending back 25 gold they captured from a barbarian village.
There is a possible threefer, but I cannot buy in, unless I go all out in creative bookkeeping. This would of course cripple our long term growth, so I will not rock the boat. I will leave it to the one raising Keshiks to balance the books.

IBT: Tsetserleg Settler->Granary,

450BC Think a bit about Forbidden Palace. Good candidates is Dalandz, Ta-Tu, and Almarikh. I put my vote on Ta-Tu, but then the worker outside should do something other than chopping forest.

430BC Found Uliastay to fill in the blanks. Scouting warrior runs north to evade a half dozen barbarian horse charging up from the south.
The possible 3fer is still open, but I do not think we have enough money to swing it. Celts have a worker free, but I also recommend to save money.

Here is the precious

Grimjack

 

[Justus II]

I've been reading along, and since we are kinda snowed in here, I've got some extra free time.

 

[Justus II]

Having heard of the great Archery contests that were frequently held (well, every few centuries) in Karakorum, Justus had spent his whole life honing his skills, in the hopes of one day competing for the prize. On the big day, after hitting three straight bulls-eyes to win the contest, he waits for the elders to award him his crown, but notes that Grimjack and the other leaders are nowhere in site, and there are rumors of angry crowds in the distance. So, he grabs the royal robes (actually, just some dirty saddle blankets) and proclaims himself Justus Khan, ruler of all the Mongols. As he starts to look through the royal records, however, he realizes why everyone was in such a hurry to leave. The Mongols are expansionist, and we have 20 cities, but our people are not happy, and corruption is rampant in many cities. Several are not even connected to our road network and able to share in our luxuries... er Luxury. Justus decrees that his top priority will be getting more of the peasants to work our lands, with great road-building and forest-clearing projects to develop our towns and villages. In going through the records, however, he also finds some notes of the previous Khan, Grimjack, talking about several strange concepts that our neighbors have recently learned. Most importantly is a new government called Feudalism, which Justus would like to impose on his subjects. He also finds an old scroll marked "dotmap" by Temujin Charis, and decrees that even more cities will be built along our coasts. Finally, concerned about the unruly people and tightening his grip on power, he quietly orders more spearmen and horsemen to be trained to suppress the people.

Pre-Turn: Ulaan, Edernet switch to settler, Tabriz from a market to a temple (to get the wheat and bonus tiles), Kazan from market to an archer, and Bat-Shireet from a barracks to a Temple (Celt borders are already pushing close). Tseterling starts a barracks instead, and Ulia starts a worker. Grimjack had started planning a Forbidden Palace, where a ruler could go and hide when needed, and TaTu looked like a good place, but there were already workers chopping trees in the area, so Justus ordered them to be used for spear shafts, then we would start on our FP.
Justus also talked with our neighbors, and saw the possibilities of learning and teaching this new knowledge, but they would need more gold than we have now, so we wait.

(1) 410 Tatu-Spear>Spear. Settler moves NW, start chopping more forest near Tseterling for the barracks.

(2) 390 Four forests are felled, as Darhan and Dalanz train new horsemen, and Ulaan trains a worker, starting on a temple. After carefully taxing the people, while trying to avoid unrest, Justus is able to scoung up 478 gold, and 38 more per turn. Surely this will impress our neighbors. Everyone has Republic and Monarchy, but we aren't interested in those anyway. Everyone but the Zulu has Feudalism, Celts have Monotheism, Vikings have Engineering, and Greece and Carthage have both. The only way to get a 3-fer is to start with Monotheism (as our minimal research seems to get us a discount), then go to the Vikings for Engineering, and finally end up with Feudalism at 5th. After checking, it turns out Hannibal gives us the best price, and he is talked down to 435 plus 22gpt for Monotheism. The Vikings need more than just that for Engineering, I have to chip in another 13gpt and 35g. But now we can go to the Celts, who are insulted when we offer Engineering for Feudalism I don't know if this is because this is now a government tech, and the AI values it higher, but no deal. I will be back when I can raise a little more cash, and hope he doesn't get Engineering in the meantime.

IBT Vikings found Bodo near our northern warrior.

(3) 370BC Tatu finishes the second spear with the forest chop, and starts our Forbidden Palace, due in 40 initially. Choy gets a worker, starts another. Baruun Urt finishes a harbor, starts on a galley to explore, Choyr Harbor>worker, Toson Worker>Warrior. More worker action, start a few more chops to hurry the Courthouse in Almarikh.

(4) 350 Ulaan Settler>Spear, Tseterling Rax>Spear, Ereen Worker>Worker, Carthage starts on Leo's One of our brave horsemen takes out the barb camp near Ulaan, and we get 25g!! Another 7gpt of payments expire, but still not enough to get the Celt's interest, although it is at least doubtful now.
IBT Carthage settles Gades NW of the Celt town of Cataractorinium.

(5) 330 Karakorum finishes Temple>Horse (MM to 11spt, a horse every 3 turns). Almarikh finishes a courthouse, starts a market, as more forests are chopped (Keeping the serfs busy). We can trade with Greece and Carthage now! (I guess because of the harbor, unless the Celts connected roads, so used to checking with a territory map). They each have luxuries to sell, and Iron, and we have .. .. .. Well, it was a nice thought while it lasted. We could sell our one and only Spice for about 250g, or possibly even our only supply of horses, but I'm not bold enough to try that, although I have heard Temujin Charis tell tales of it in the past Besides, we don't have much flexibility in the happiness department at the moment I build Bayanhungor NW of Almarikh, filling in a hole.

(6) 310 Whip a temple in Mandalgovi, as the celts are moving more settlers near our area. Try to trade again, as our last 13g of pre-existing payments is completed, but still doubtful. The Zulu have both Feudalism and Engineering now, where did that come from? I check for a second to see if they had the G.Library, then realize no one does... No one has researched Literature yet

Everyone must have been caught up in the excitement of the new age. I am thinking of an idea, but I still want to pull off the Engineering-Feudalism trade, so I cant afford any science. Celts move a settler/spear near the center Oasis. IBT they found Ratae Corisomething.

(7) 290 Mandal completes the whipped temple, starts on rax, Edern finishes settler>Harbor. Settler from Ulaan founds HarAyrag SE of Ulaan on the coast. Our horseman up north sees lots of Hannibals army moving on the Vikings, an Ancient Cav and tons of NuMercs and Med. Infantry.

(8) 270 Karak-Horse>Horse, Darhan-Horse>Market, Choyr-Worker>Warrior (MP). More worker moves, as I try to complete roads connecting all cities, and irrigate plains where the forests used to be. Our window for dealing is closed, as the Celts now have Engineering, and we never got closer than doubtful

(9) 250BC Tabriz Temple>Market, Ulaan Spear>Horse. Vikings start building Sun Tzu, everyone else already is . I finished the worker moves, and have a couple horsemen observing our neighbors. I stopped here because it is an "even" turn, and because I want the next leader to chose a direction for science.

We have a settler next to Karakorum, I was heading him NW, probably in the jungle near the archer. If we were really ambitious, there is a fur past Gades, but we would be surrounded by Carthage, and I wouldn't recommend it. The Forbidden Palace is coming along nicely, down to 28 turns, and we have plenty of workers now (17). I see a couple options for science. We can just accumulate cash (slowly) until we can work out a buy of Feudalism. We still have like 13 turns remaining on our payments, so cash is tight until then, but at least everyone is working tiles now, no specialists or entertainers (10% lux). A second option would be to go for Literature, either at minimum (with a scientist) or we could afford like 20% science, which brings it down under 30 turns, IIRC. Once the payments are over, we could jump it up and probably get it in less than 20 total. I'm not sure how the AI will prioritize it, as an optional tech from the last era, they may be so focused on the key early MA techs that they forget about it. Anyway, if we got it, we should be able to get Feudalism at last for a Literature monopoly. At least it could get us a discount. Third option would normally be pointy stick, but with no iron, and no Feudalism, I don't think that's very feasible at this point. Hopefully our next leader will have some better ideas. But I guess that's what we get for putting our whole kingdom on the line in an archery contest

Here's the Prize

Next shooter, step right Up!

 

[Grimjack]

Good set of turns JustUs.

Feudalism is probably much more expensive now. Weird when things learnt by heart changes.

As to Literature, to bad our best cities pull in some 6 spt, otherwise we could have started a Great Library prebuild.

Much more fitting anyhow if we take it from someone else with our fabulous horsemen. ( errr,. horseman. )

Grimjack. ( Not a got it. )

 

[Justus II]

Originally posted by Grimjack


Feudalism is probably much more expensive now. Weird when things learnt by heart changes.

As to Literature, to bad our best cities pull in some 6 spt, otherwise we could have started a Great Library prebuild.

Much more fitting anyhow if we take it from someone else with our fabulous horsemen. ( errr,. horseman. )

Grimjack. ( Not a got it. )

I went into the science screen before I started, trying to determine which would be more valuable, Monotheism or Engineering. Turns to research at max was like 15 for Mono (but we had 10+ turns with a 3-beaker scientist already into it) and 16 for Engineering, so I figured Mono would be a little more valuable. Feudalism, however, was only at 12 turns, so I thought it would be the cheapest (also everyone else already had it!). So apparently they didn't change the base research cost, just the value the AI assigns to it!

Anyway, we are up to 5 horsemen now, but since everyone else has pikes. . . .

Justus II (Also not a got it)

 

[Charis]

Wowza, nice thought but the lack of Feudalism must be a source of great anxiety for the people!!

The AI 'overvalues' certain techs, including all Govt techs, Nationalism, and some others I'm less sure on, and will charge the player an arm and a leg for them (double? That I'm not sure)
The cost to *research* it doesn't change (the lesser cost of 12 was correct), just the cost to *buy* it.

[EDIT - removed drivel that encouraged 'focus', that if we ignored Monarchy, Monotheism and Engr we would have Feudalism by now, since the Monarchy deal was the Austrian game )

I love that nice large core with 20 cities, so well done! Judgding from the screenshot, the build orders look great too

Regarding the dots, blue is very low priority - no one can steal it from us as it's too close. The red dot has the advantage in that it leaves nice room for one more exactly three squares SE which is 3 squares from each of 2 cities. If instead we want 1 for now that's more defensible, that hill square one SE is good, and it's 3 squares instead of 2 from our nearby city. Either will work.

I hope someone can step in and get us Feudalism (Gris??)
(If not expect Temujin's cousin to step in, but better someone else)

Charis

 

[Charis]

Before even hitting enter, a mysterious man only known as "Mr. Pendleton" figures out how to get Feudalism this turn.



No steal. Not negative income. No extra goodies to trade.

The great nation is in anarchy trying to figure out what has happened...

"Got it"
Charis Temjin

 

[Charis]

There was a man who once in distant past ruled the Mongol nation, but whose reign
was such a snoozer that none could even remember him. One day at the Medieval Fair
there was a contest with a grand prize of a whole roast pig. The contestant,
one called Temujin Charis, was so hungry he could not see straight. Quite fortunately
for him, neither could the other contenstants who had too much to smoke , and so
he somehow won. It was only then that he found out the pig came along with a 'challenge'
goal - to somehow obtain the most glorious knowledge of all, a government by of and
for the Fiefdom! If not, they would surely fall by the wayside of extinct civilizations!

The goal was simple to understand, but less simple to bring about - obtain Feudalism.
A secondary goal was to continue to expand our kingdom.

We're at peace, but folks look kinda unpleased with us. We're in good shape on score
and power, although Greece is trouncing everyone on culture. It looks like Carthage
is doing better than they are in the war. We have horses but no iron. Our iron-less UU
will hope to undo that. Others are up a few tech, and we're not even close with
our 83g+10gpt. No support costs, and our ability to support units will go up after new
govt. Temujin looks over the founding vision for their nation - to never need aqueducts
or hospitals and to see a reign of Keshek terror, culminating in super-Kesheks
(aka cavalry) dominating the world. Not only do we not need Monotheism now, we'll *never*
need it. The bottom half of the tree is our one and only concern. Forget markets,
libraries, cathedrals, banks, ships, artillery, and fancy theories of gravity and
magnetism. Our future is a horse show. It's good to see so many workers, but sad that
our capital and FP aren't getting much of their attention. Let's take a closer look at
the queue. 4gpt Kazan is halfway done a marketplace. Given it's size potential, that
will be needed though. Almarikh seems capped at six, so I'm not sure about its market
either, but it's far enough along there's no better swap. Tabriz needs a rax more than
a market. Darhan swaps to horse. Erdenet will never get to a size it will need the
harbor in progress, we swap to settler (since we need four and have just one).
Outgoing pay, 13gpt for 13 to Vikings. 22gpt for 13 to Carthage. Zulu are weakest,
then Vikings. Still, there is no way for Feudalism... apart from a pointy stick.
A horse runs toward Alesia just to see what's there, then comes back. A reg pike.
No dice til Keshiks. No Kesheks til Feudalism. What a catch 22! At +10 gpt it will
be 48 turns before we can try even an immediate steal. Research will take 50.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Charis Temujin, cousin to Ca-Ching, finds
a way. How does he get Feudalism, THIS TURN, before even hitting enter?



We see Carthage lacks spices, and we sell them our ONLY one, for 237g.
We note Greeks lack horses, and we sell them our ONLY one, along with an Alliance
vs the Zulu (no trades active, and they're not close by), a Right of Passage (we're
bigger in area than they), 306g and +18gpt.

We now have Feudalism!! [dance]

We're also beyond broke, at war, and in Anarchy. News at 11!
Temujin immediately revolts, and we draw 7 turns. (Ouch, possibly a downside to large
area??) Now the creative tile management starts!) Some cities are in trouble.
Ta-tu and Almarikh will alternate rioting and low food. Even our size 1 cities
have taxmen. It will be a nasty 7 turn crunch, but better than than a 50 turn delay.
An attempt to borrow gold from Vikings suggests they have 5gpt free. Of course they
won't loan that for 14g, but when I bring up the word 'peace' when they're being
beat up on by Greece and Carthage, and they sing like a bird! We're not so powerful
they'll give all six, but they do pay us 4g+2gpt for peace for 20 turns.

Then Charis Temujin demands tribute from Alexander of Greece!! At the table we discuss
how this war alliance is setting us back, and Alex can contribute 2g+1gpt to our cause.
(Heck, we're at peace with him 20turns anyway)

Not enough. Temujin starts to sell his food (go deficit food for extra taxmen).
We're now 20g+0gpt, not negative :]

[0] 250BC - That's enough, sheesh, play ball!

IBT OH MY!!! The Celts demand all 20g in tribute?!?! We'll never survive the
seven turns. Being one who hates oh-so-much to cave, I tell him to stick it where
the sun don't shine, and they declare war!!

[1] 230 BC - Er, what a fine mess you've gotten us into Charis Temujin!!
On the plus side, there is now some war happiness!

Our warr scout takes on a barb camp and wins, for 25g, which is like an enormous
sum to us right now! We then re-manage all the tiles and wake up almost every
soldier -- they'll be heading to the front line to hold of the Celts. I think we'll
be ok *unless* they bring in another civ on a dogpile.

We hit spear-defended Cataractonium with a horse but retreat. An archer comes up.
Another horse pillages a cattle at Richborough.

IBT - Ruh roh, here they come!! An MDI flies out of Richborough and... loses
to the spear covering our pillager, and promotes him?! That's it for attacks!
Carthage starts the Sissy chapel. Bully for them.

[2] 210 BC - At Cataractorium our archer wins, going red. A reg spear left.
At Ratae our horse beats a spear and promotes. Another spear left.

IBT One Celt archer and one spear shift. That's it?? Brennus' non-bluff was a bluff!
Zulu and Vikings start Sun Tzu.

[3] 190 BC - A pair of horses is upon Ratae Coritanorum. The first hits, wins, and...
the city is ours! (Taking a city was the LAST thing I expected when
the Celts declared war on us!) Three more pillages. Richborough is about surrounded
by no less than TEN of the most ancient of units, all warrs and spears!! They
thought we would cave but found out they disturbed a hornet's nest!!
An archer in the open is slain by our able horseman.

Ok, too good to last, three MDI come out to play this round and trounce us.
At least one goes red, the others breeze over us.

[4] 170 BC - The MDI is a little testy but we finish him with an archer.
Then our elite horse hits a Celt spear in the open... omg...

Ogodei, the Great Horseman leader!!! (Can you say Keshik army?!?!)


IBT - MDI beats down a warrior, ooh, tough guy. That's it!
Hannibal is *so* amazed at the ridiculous news he's hearing that he establishes
an embassy in our capital Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the
Celts were essentially *neutered* when you took away their military trait??

[5] 150 BC - Ogodei creates an army but it shall remain empty in Karakorum until
we have a Keshek.

IBT We see two more MDI coming up to Alesia. The one chasing down our pillagers
between there and Richborough kills a spear.

[6] 130 BC - Our archer returns fire on the spear-killing MDI and win. Our
horse defeats an MDI loose outside Burdigala and promotes, and an archer and
spear join him next to the city. We found Nalaya in the gap to connect our
captured city Ragae to Mandalgovi, three steps from each. At Cataractonium our
healed knight takes out a spear, after our archer took out an archer in the low
lying grass who came after us

The seven longs turns of anarchy have FLEW by with our preoccupation with the war,
but next turn should see a new government, so we ready the citizens, ending up
at 25g-24gpt. I'm rather hoping the Celts will talk next turn or soon.
After many turns of unbridled rioting, Almarikh and Ta-tu are adjusted to
get out of revolting, while losing just enough food to go to zero but not shrink.

IBT One MDI slaughters our open archer, two more move up. The resistance in
Ratae ends, then this LOVELY msg...

:jump:

[7] 110 BC - Did I say negative 24 gpt? I mean plus 21! It won't stay this way as
Charis Temujin fires hoardes of taxmen.

The color goes right out of Brennus when he learns that the Mongols have beat them
silly on a war HE started, while in anarchy, with an offensive army of 5 horse and
two archers, while deep deep in hock. He comes sheepishly to the bargaining table.
Alas, not sheepishly enough. We pillage the very last square around Richborough...
it's been stripped bare as if locusts had descended on it. We need to give him
more pain. Well, with MDI about to come up and with us next to two cities, let's
PUSH it! Turns out Cataractonium had just one spear left, and an archer captures
the city! :] (At Burdigala our horse retreats, ending chances for extreme pain.
In the field, archer loses to MDI but hurts it, warrior finishes him off,
horse beats archer, warr loses to spear, warr beats spear.

Time to talk peace now that we've taken another city. Now he's more pliable, and
will discount Chivalry down to 20gpt! Invention? Almost. Either is a total non-option
off other civs, and there is nothing to broker either way. I think if we get Chivalry
and Keshiks, we can pointy stick for Invention, whereas the other way won't work.
We'll buy Chivalry then, for 20gpt. (Burdigala is an insult so it must be hiding
something. Shoot, we almost had that too.) The other option is that he'll give
Tolosa and Odense, but Tolosa would be instantly gone to the Carthage, and I kinda
prefer having a thin buffer against them. I can't even see Odense, maybe island?
Chivalry it is. It'll be 13 turns before horse deal is up with Greece, *but* there
are fresh new horses outside Cataract town! Send some workers up if you can spare.

The only downside to peace is the loss of some happiness, and our income after
the deal is tiny again. Ouch, I look and that happiness was actually rather
substantial. Feudalism does provide MP of *3* and will currently support
122 units (!), while we have 39. With 25 cities that's 4.9 support per town. Nice!
Workers and Keshiks folks, that's all we need! (And enough rax to capture Sun Tzu)
We can surely use a warr and a spear per city, so we can help fill out our slower
MP military quickly with these cheap troops before we get iron. Ta-Tu and Almarikh
will spend one more turn or two in a funk. Tip: Temple first, THEN FP

IBT Carthaginians start Knights Templar. So do the Celts. 8-\

[8] 90 BC - Every empty city is now on MP Warrior or finishing their harbor for food.
Vikings are seen to have Zerks now btw, so don't tick them off

IBT The Zulu would give us a city for peace??! Tempting, but no, we're keeping our
pledge to the Greeks who taught us Feudalism.

Thermopylae complete's Sun Tzu. There I was, thinking for one small minute that
the Greeks could be our strong allies this game, but no, we must conquer that
city to 'win'. Carthage starts/swaps to Leo's, Sissy's, and Knight's Templar.
Too late on that, Alesia completes it. Now THAT is a nice target for our Keshik
army-to-be to capture!!!!

[9] 70 BC - We bump slider up to 10% to get back to work on our FP.
When we try to rush something, we're reminded that it's *forced* labor in
Feudalism. Hmm... we partially whip a temple Cataractonium.

[10] 50BC - Our warrior in Viking area stumbles across a road in a thin strip of
neutral territory. Cursing the ground it becomes pillaged. Almarikh gets a third MP
and can BARELY make it to content and still feed itself. Let the market complete,
in about 6-7 turns, or swap NOW to temple at no shield loss. I adjust all shields
and commerce to get us stable, at 15g+0gpt. Keep a close eye on our top cities,
but the other ones should be fine until their warrior is done, then see if they
deserve food or keep a taxman. (Or when they grow, like Ereen and Bayanhongor soon)

Notes:

! Do *NOT* shift a city building a horseman off, even temporarily, as we no longer
have horses. They were started pre-Greek-trade.

! Karakorum is 10spt and can kick one warr per turn for pure MP or you can let the
non-rax towns do that, and pump a vet spear every two. Get SOME thing defending
each town asap, or we'll get an unneeded tribute threat.

! The scout horse up North is trying to find a Zulu city to attack or pillage,
to make good on our promise of an 'alliance' with the Greece, lest our rep suffer.
He just now climbed a mountain in view of Hlobane. Look their climbing the hill,
or more safely head down to Mpondo and pillage the road if it still exists. If
Alex makes peace before 20 (not at ALL unlikely actually) you need not do anything
and could follow up with peace right away. But if 20 is approaching and they're still
going at it, make sure you pillage/attack something.

! At some point, probably in about 20 turns, think hard about Keshek army -> Alesia.

! Lurkers tip - do not fear tribute and not to cave in automatically

The new view of our lands...

Grab da game!

RBC5 Save file 50BC for the next shooter!

Charis

 

[Justus II]

Charis,

Incredible use of the as usual. I thought about trying to work our "only" resources in a trade, but glad you had the boldness to pull it off!

Regarding your initial tech discussion, we did need Monotheism for Chivalry, but I guess Engineering could have waited, I just really thought we could pull off the 3-fer deal. Lesson learned, I'm still not used to thinking of Feudalism as such an expensive tech. BTW, does this mean Sci civs can pull a Feudalism Slingshot into the Middle Ages now?

Also, a question on the alliance, I didn't realize just a pillage would count as fulfilling your part of the alliance w/ the AI. Is that taken into account by the AI rep? I thought you had to kill units/cities, but I wasn't really sure how the AI handled it.

Edit: BTW, not a "got it" I'm not up for archery anytime soon!

 

[Speaker]

Got it.

 

[Speaker]

IT- Shuffle a bg from Karakorum (making 13spt) to Ulaanbaatar (making 4), and the horseman is now due in 5 turns with Karakorum still producing a warrior per turn. Also shift from an unroaded forest to a roaded mountain, so Karakorum is now at exactly 10spt. We are now up to 5gpt.

*hit enter*

30BC (1): Tabriz Barracks => Spearman (at 7spt). Several warriors complete and taxmen are fired.

10BC (2): We may have an economic crisis on our hands soon, as warriors keep completing and taxmen are put back to work.

10AD (3): 9 gold in the bank, -9 gpt, but then miraculously, a trade deal ends and we have 26gpt to work with.

30AD (4): Position Horseman on a mountain in Zululand.

50AD (5): Kazan Market => Trebuchet (placeholder for Keshik). Ulaanbaatar Horse => Trebuchet (same). Second source of horses are now hooked up, so Keshik's are ordered up in several cities. Some minor MM for extra food with almost-complete projects, nothing major.

IT- Carthage builds Leo's in Hippo.

70AD (6): Not sure which turn I forgot to record, so I'll put them together. Dalandzadgad Market => Keshik. Karakorum has reached its population limit at size 8, so it takes the scientist. It should be able to produce 15 uncorrupted spt when a mine finishes, which will mean a Keshik every 4 turns. Horseman adventures next to Alesia to check if the Celts have musketmen yet. The top defender at Alesia is a regular pike, for what it's worth. Horseman pillages a Zulu tile.

IT- Horse is killed by a Zulu MI.

90AD (7): Almarikh Market => Temple (otherwise its 6th citizen cannot work). It currently makes 7 uncorrupted shields. The next ruler may want to switch from a temple to a Keshik when the mine on the gold mountain finishes, if Almarikh cannot get to 10 uncorrupted spt. Tabriz needs an aqueduct to continue growing, but I think it can get to over 15spt with two mined hills.

110AD (8): Nothing much.

IT- Carthage offers MA vs the Vikings and RoP. No thanks.

130AD (9): Nothing much.

150AD (10): Spices deal ends with Carthage. Karakorum now is at 16 uncorrupted spt and switches to Keshik production. Cancel Alliance deal with Greece (no rep hit). Make peace with the Zulu, getting 11 gold and 6gpt in return. First Keshik rolls off the production line in Tabriz.

Conclusion- Pretty uneventful turns. Pretty much all the cities are ok happiness wise and we are ready to start cranking out Keshiks. Tabriz and Ulaanbaatar need worker attention to max shields, but I think both of them can get to 15 uncorrupted spt--a Keshik every 4 turns. I didn't do anything about tech on my turn. Not that there was anything I could do.

Aside- I think my biggest non-FP complaint about C3C (and Civ3 in general) is the horribly inept governor who chooses corrupt shields over excess food. I wish they would address this in a patch.

Who's Next?

 

[Charis]

Tis midnight, and untaken, so here we go. "Got it"


Charis

 

[Charis]

Charis Temujin cannot tear himself away from the nation he loves, and longs to see
how it prospers in Feudalism. We're at peace, Greeks are still going at it with
Zulus. We still lack iron and would have to capture Lugdunum to get it. Greeks lack
horses and we have one extra. We have Chivalry, one Keshik with seven in queue,
one empty Army, much improved MP status, and support for 50 more. We're weak
compared to Carthage, Greeks and Celts, strong to others. Five techs to Mil Trad.
Next target? Alesia of Celts? Thermopylae of Greece later on. Carthage is distinctly
the new monster now. Viks have Invention, not Theology. That's a 2-fer opp, getting
Theology for free along with Invention. I can think of no reason not to, using the horses
to sell to Greeks while they yet lack them (worth about 42gpt).

[0] 150 - Trade horses+ROP+10g+20gpt to Greece for Theo, to Viks for Invention.
Actually, their peace deal expires this turn, so we'll renew. 13gpt closes the deal.
Carthage and Greece have Edu and Gunpowder. Viks have the powder too. (Not good news
for Keshiks!) Zulus and Celts have neither. At 90 a pop, we won't upgrade many horses
but I do upgrade two, to fill the Army. The Celts have 7 turns of peace left on
treaty, then our Army is going to capture Alesia!

IBT The Greece peace was up, it was renewed for free. Carthage starts Copernicus. Ouch!

[1] 170 - Choybalsan is poaching a mined hill from Ta-Tu trying to finish FP?!
I readjust tiles and merge in a few workers, FP now due in 7 (Lux up til then)

[2] 190 - Movin
[3] 210 - Four turns of peace left.
[5] 250 - Two more, movin'.
IBT Utica finishes some sissy chapel. Now they'll be a BIGGER monster.

[6] 260 - One more. Let's figure 3 at Richborough, 4-5 at Alesia, and the latter
is size 7. Some Keshiks mount a hill for Richy.
IBT Greeks start AND finish Copernicus on same turn (SGL?)

[7] 270 - Here we go! The peace treaty is over and we do not renew. War is upon us.
Our first Keshik attacks Richborough and wins... Golden Age!!

A second loses and a third wins, the city is ours! Rax is in place. A horse
pillages the road from Alesia to Entremont. Now to Alesia. Win and promote.
Win, retreat, win, still a pike left. (All regs btw, silly Brennus) Now the
Army's turn. That was the last one - the city and the Knights Templar are now ours
As hoped, there are some workers behind the city and the army has a move left.
We have a horse that joins him. Karakorum hits 31spt, a Keshik every other turn.
Our income for the moment is +116gpt, and FP is due next turn.
IBT No counter whatsoever. Two workers flee.

[8] 280 - Army reaches their Iron, pillages it, beats one pike. New FP Income +132gpt.
Alas, the pseudo-fix is evident. The FP city itself has waste of 8 of 29 shields,
and that's WITH a courthouse!

Zulu and Vikings are getting hammered badly. I'm tempted to try a 2-fer for Edu
and Gunpowder with the Vikings, but we don't really need Edu and they might not live.
But I don't want to put more gpt in top dog pockets. We truly need just three techs
after gunpowder, so if our rep does take a hit, not a huge loss. (I'm not trying or
assuming payments will cease, I'm prepared to pay the full amount.) It would be
good to know sooner rather than later where any salt might be. 61gpt gets it,
the same as a 'Careful steal' attempt.And lo, the top dogs are on the top path,
no one has Chemistry.

IBT Our Northern warr scout was cut down like a dog by Celtic Knights. Ah, THAT is
where there troops are! They're carving into the Vikings I now see, and are miles
and miles away from Entremont At home, Longbow comes out of Lug and loses.

[9] 290 - Darn, no saltpeter? Let's look. Aha! One just next to Tosontengel. None
in our desert area, and the Celts have one, unconnected it seems, on hill behind
Verulamium. I set three cities near salt to finish workers very soon.

We get our first Crusader out of Alesia. We spy one of their's coming.
At Lugdunum, just one pike defender?? It's our city now, and with it the iron.
(Although sheesh, I wouldn't have pillaged if I knew would fall instantly)
At Alesia a Keshik gets the jump on their crusader and promotes.
IBT - Total and utter silence.

[10] 300 - At Aboricum our Keshiks finally arrive. Just two spears, and the city
is ours, along with four workers and a cat. The other Keshik run North.
Temple whipped in Ratae. A few units step up next to Entremont and pillage.
The square they're in is where we want to attack from, so it's NOT across river!
I'm starving down Alesia, as the Celt culture is double ours and it's near their cap.
Hey, we're up to 'avg' Military vs Greece!

Notes:
- Hook up the saltpeter on western mtn near Toson.
- Whip the rax in Cataractorium?
- Heroic Epic due in 6. Enjoy the Golden Age.
- TaTu due marketplace in 4, after which scientist can move.
- If you can spare a few Keshiks, capture Burdigala as it juts awkwardly
into our land.
- Capture Entremont next turn. Actually, that might be much easier
said than done. Gotta be 5,6,7 pikes and either bow or catapult. There's
more units on the way like the crusader if you prefer to step up and camp
a round first. Just don't wait so long the Knights return home. There should
be no new knights or MDI as they have no iron.

The new view of our lands...

Grab da game!

RBC5 Save file 300AD for the next warmonger (er... shooter!)

Charis

 

[6thGenTexan]

looking at the picture, another Fiefdom can be started on the square north of the irrigation and NW of the slaves (3 from each town). We don't want to turn down their willingness to support 4 more Keshiks/Cavalries.

Another thought...instead of starving the people in our new Mongol Fiefdoms, break out the put the people to work and speed up those temples.

NOT a got it....yet.

6gntxn

 

[Dwip]

But wait. Nobody has the game? It's not going to disappear in the 10 minutes until I can play it? A miracle, I say!

Got it.

 

[Charis]

Good eye, 6thGen, that's certainly a great spot for another city. It's going to be a tough call to know how hard/far to push the Celts. I have a feeling the answer might be 'Til those Knights show up!' Hopefully that will be after Entremont falls.

Speaking of Entremont, if there are no wonders there, it's probably far better razed than captured. We do NOT have a ton of extra garrison units, and the culture is not at all favorable.

Dwip, I was wondering when there might be some comments about how often this game is picked up. Especially by that 'one guy' who can't seem to put the game down!!

In my defense (not that anyone is attacking! Who are you calling paranoid?!? ) far more Open SG's suffer from sluggishness rather than overzealousness. I'm thinking that if no one picks it up, rather than let it sit 24, 48 or more hours, to hop in, play, and return the game in 4 hrs. If people view open SG's as "It's famine tonight, not feast, I'll just hop in" then we can simply go through 2-3 such games in the same time it takes for just one sluggish game to finish. In fact, expect an open game very soon that features a 3.1.1 Assyrian Crossbowman.

Good luck, and give 'em heck Dwip!
Charis

 

[Grimjack]

Good eye there texan. Most people ( myself included ) are so set in the Republican way of play, that they overlook the power of using the :whip: on the captured populace. Much better than starving them. Starvation loses 20 shields.

Grimjack who had hoped the game was free tonight

 

[Dwip]

[0] 300 AD - Well, here we are again. And unlike the one horse of last time, we have, er, a lot of keshiks. 17 of them, in fact. 3 of which are in a keshik ARMY, which all by itself does much to instill in me the Warm Fuzzy Feeling. We're even fuedalistic! And in a Golden Age!

Incidentally, the bug where you turn off the music and it doesn't actually stop is really annoying.

(IBT) - Greece declares peace on the Zulu.

[1] 310 AD - Baruun-Urt Worker->Temple. Ratae Temple->Walls.

We have...a catapult. How quaint. But we'll deal with that later. First, to see if we can put the on Entremont!

Well, ok. We move up in front of Entremont and camp for a round, first. Maybe two. There's a whole bunch of Keshiks coming up to save us.

Whole lotta troop movement.

[2] 320 AD - Kazan Keshik->Keshik, Tabriz Keshik->Keshik, Ereen Worker->Temple, Choyer Spearman->Temple.

And now, for excitement involving Entremont.

Vet Crusader vs Vet Pike - Pike loses 1 hp. Ow.

I fear for the army, but...

Army vs Vet Pike - Army loses 1 hp, kills pike.
Vet Keshik vs Vet Pike - Keshik redlines but kills pike. Woot!
Vet Keshik vs Vet Pike - Pike obliterates Keshik with no damage.
Vet Keshik vs Vet Pike - Pike loses 1 hp, kills Keshik, promotes. Doh.

That elite pike is going to be an issue.

Elite Keshik vs Elite Pike - Pike goes to 1 hp, then kills Keshik. Ack!

Best defender, however, is now a regular Pike. That's next turn's issue, however.

(IBT) - Greece and Carthage ally vs the 3CC Vikings. Whups.

[3] 330 AD - Mandalgovi Spear->Marketplace. Choybalsan rax->Temple. Tasterleg Keshik->Keshik.

Well, they dredged up a vet Pike somewhere.

Just for kicks, we make the spears in Burdigala have a bad day first, capturing the city and a couple of workers.

And here we go.

Vet Keshik vs Vet Pike - Do 1 hp to the pike, but retreat! That nice little regular pike is the best defender. I wonder...
Elite Keshik vs Regular Pike - 1 hp Keshik, but pike dies.
Army vs Regular Pike - Army wins, but is running out of hp.
Vet Keshik vs 3 hp Vet Pike - lost, but pike goes to 1 hp. 3 hp elite is best defender.
Vet Keshik vs 3 hp Elite Pike - No damage, retreat. Doh.

We have the army and an elite horse left. The army has 4 hp. Not risking it this round.

(IBT) - The Zulu, in their timely manner, begin the Great Library.

[4] 340 AD - Alesia makes a Crusader. Nifty. Ta-Tu Market->Keshik. Dalan Keshik->Keshik.

Vet Keshik vs Elite Pike - hit pike for 1 hp, die.

Actually, that was something of a misclick. The foolhardy Keshik having gone to his grave on the pikes, everybody else holds in place for the reinforcements.

[5] 350 AD - Almarikh Keshik->Keshik, Tabriz Keshik->Keshik, Darhan Keshik->Keshik.

Half-whip a temple in Burdigala.

And here we go.

Vet Keshik vs Elite Pike - Knock off 2 hp, but die.
Vet Keshik vs Vet Pike - Win
Vet Keshik vs Reg Musket (eep) - lose, no damage.
Vet Keshik vs Reg Musket - lose, no damage, promote. Ack.
Vet Keshik vs Vet Musket - lose, 1 damage, promote. Wow.

I give this one more turn before I end it.

(IBT) - The Vikes die. A bunch of pikes and spears run into Entremont.

[6] 360 AD - Ulaanbaatar Keshik->Keshik, Hovd Courthouse->Marketplace, Toson Warrior (?)->Temple.

I wonder... move some troops, pillage like mad around Entremont, and begin moving on the Celtic saltpeter at Verulamium. Hope hope hope.

[7] 370 AD - War weariness hits. Yeowch.

Verulamium goes down, and we have the Celtic saltpeter supply!

I make peace with the Celts. For lack of a better thing to screw them for, I snag most of their crappy northern colonies: Nemausus, Lindum, Hareid, Alesund, and Odense, as well as a worker. We can presumably do something with them besides let the Celts have them.

And I'm out of time, and have to hand off here.

Save the Keshik!

 

[Charis]

: stunned look :

Wow, warm fuzzies aren't enough for a war eh?!

I have some comments to make on attacking a bulky city. Please take these as general comments, or as tips to the lurker.

* An attack with a city w/o artillery backup must be done with sufficient force on hand, not bits and pieces.
* If you're waiting, pillage. Pillage again. If a city can be dropped down from size 7 to 6 due to lack of food or whipping, it loses a big bonus.
* The attack sequence I tend to prefer: vet fast units, vet slow units, elite fast, elite slow. You use an army vs a particularly tough defender, or to avoid a (double) promotion.
* If a defender wins and stays in place, another loss will promote him, so on the second attack use your best available unit.

Let's apply these to the present situation.
- We have more units just a turn away, so smart choice by Dwip to wait a turn.
- Whether or not to wait one more is a tough call. With gunpowder out there is a big risk in waiting. But hanging one more turn brings us 2 more Keshiks. With Knight defenders potentially due any moment, hitting in 320 was again the correct choice by Dwip

I loaded up 300AD and went at it thusly: On turn 1, the waiting turn, Keshiks move up to the 'attack' square. The army can pillage with zero cost and has move 3. Move. Pillage. Move. Pillage. Move finally to the attack square. Ok, now we're rdy in 320:

- Vet fast units first. Why? They can damage foes and retreat, so going fast first minimizes your losses. Vet first because I like to not see elites die and damaging them with vets (expecting to lose a few) then all wins with elites is the best 'leader fishing' technique.

Vet Keshik wins and promotes.
Vet Keshik wins.
Vet Keshik turns red, but wins.

(Ok, that's kind of a fortunate series, but not wildly so)

- Vet slow would be next, but we have no MDI, so none. (I'm treating the 5-attack crusader as effectively an elite unit)

- Elite fast next. Why? Again, the retreat ability to minimize losses, plus decent leader chance.

Elite K loses, but does enough dmg the defender changes.
(If he had stayed the same, the army would attack next!!!
Why? Two wins in one round = autopromotion, a must-to-avoid)
Elite K Wins

- That's it for fast elites except one with 2 hp I think, next
set is tough slow units.

Crusader loses horribly. (Ok, about 'even' luck so far)

- Now that we're facing 3hp or less units, the army goes now.
Why? i) I *hate* to lose an army, so if my normal units can win a good bit of the time, I throw them first. ii) I like to have the unit actually capturing the city be the army, to be able to hold the city. It's horrible to go early with an army, kill a few, then take a city and be holding it with a 1hp horse. iii) the army can blitz, so we can attack *3* times in one turn with the army.

Army wins, taking fair dmg but still ok.
Army wins, taking almost no dmg.
Entremont is ours.

The Army still had one attack left and enough hp to make it. There was still and elite horsie I could use, and a 2hp Keshek. Or next turn 2-3 fresh Keshiks arrive.

The actual attack sequence (again, for teaching purposes, not to pick on Dwip):
- Led with Crusader. Good way to lose a good attack unit - instead, start with fast units. If a Kesh can put 1-2 hp dmg on a pike the Crusader can pretty safely eat its lunch
- Next led with army. Note this is good technique when the defender has a big advantage and you don't want to throw away many weak units just to kill one. Example: A city has one or two vet muskets in a sizee 7 city. Lead with the army, don't lead with two Keshiks and promote the thing to elite.
- The army quit?????? It only lost 1 hp! Why on earth didn't it continue and use its blitz ability??
- Vet K vs pike wins. Yay! Right choice, good outcome.
- Vet K vs pike loses and doesn't scratch it! Right choice, and you'll see some losses from time to time. BUT it's the next choice that is the problem.
- Vek K vs pike? Key tactical mistake. Facing an unhurt defender who has already won this round, you use your biggest gun available. In this case, army top choice, crusader next choice, then elite. (Another reason why I don't start the round with the army attacking, since its best use is against a "prior-winner" defender
(At this point, count three losses and two wins. If you count on 5-7 defenders for a capital, you decide now before attacking whether to continue or not. If you think you can't take the city now, break off the entire attack, go to neutral territory and heal up)
- Elite K vs the now elite pike. We lose, but that's the break. It was a good try, except... we stop for the round?!
Note also why it's better to rough up the defender first then use the elite, greater chance of a leader and less chance of seeing your elite units die.

We've lost four and have killed two. At this point we should know our chances of taking it next round are tiny, and should call off the attack. Not call off the war, but the attack! (To heal)

Diverting from your very choice and juicy main objective to swallow Burgidala town was... non-optimal. Again, the expectation that knights and/or muskets could show up at any time calls for 'focus'.

The fact that the units that were hurt first round healed up and that more reinforcements were brought in highlights again that you attack when you have sufficient force, and hit them fully to take it in one round. If at any point it looks clear they won't go this round, go heal up and gather more strength. You can't "whittle down" a city that has a rax to heal and can whip or bring in reinforcements, while you do no healing.

These two sentences were a big yin-yang of pleasure and pain:
> Verulamium goes down, and we have the Celtic saltpeter supply!

Excellent!!! This puts us back in command and means that with a few rounds of massing and healing our Keshiks and army, Entremont is toast.

> I make peace with the Celts.... then I hand off.

:

WHY???? Several problems here:
- We *JUST * cut off their salt, now they can reconnect it and build many muskets in 20 turns. K's vs muskets will make K's vs pikes look like utter child's play.
- We're in our Golden Age, and their core is a shambles, and their capital pillaged to the dark ages. If we do NOTHING but sit in our territory for five turns and collect the freshly made K's, their doom is sure.

Those two problems were errors in judgement, no biggie. But the biggest problem is... if you're stopping your turn now *WHY* would you not hand-off without peace and let the next leader decide???? He, AND the next player, have to live with the consequences of that choice, and if you turn it over (early!) you don't. ** In any Succession Game If there is a key decision to be made that has a much bigger effect on the next guy than you, and it's time to turn it over, let him decide

I truly don't mean to pick on you here, and you did several good things and made some good choices, but I had to post this to:
- Show that city-attack technique matters, a LOT
- Point out a major ettiquette issue for Succession games (even open ones)

If it helps to know... I've been in SG games where I got and 'd far, FAR worse than this, and I've learned a lot, bounced back, and come to really enjoy playing with the whip-wielding commentator

We'll still stick it to our foes!
Who's up next??!?! (I hope we don't hear a pin drop now )
Charis

 

[barbslinger]

The errors you found really jumped out when you highlighted them. Thanks for tips of attack sequence, though I think I do it mostly that way. The retreat is beneficial and leader fishing against weaker opponents helps with this method. One thing I do a bit differently is if the first fast vet unit gets the foe down to 1-2 hp I would surely jump in with an elite to go for leader prior to sending another vet in. I have found that sometimes I end up with elites standing on the sidelines watching the vets do all the work.