RBC6 - Scrappy Sumerians (C3C Demi SG)

An explanation on the rationale for selling Steam.

1) In my interpretation, we are greedy, and scientific, so unless they can offer something that actually help us research faster, I wouldn't sell. In this case, I ran out of money to do reserach with. I wanted to keep research at 80-90 %.

2) If we help the AIs to get The Corporation, they will be able to pay us more for our techs. I cannot see any need for the AIs to have any tech beyond Sanitation/Corporation though, as those techs wont help them pay us full price for our superior techs.

Grimjack
 
I must say that #2 is more my style. I think just about all my SG turns include at least one "oops, should have made that trade last turn, but they wouldn't pay full price".

So, I'd probably prefer #2, but also agree that I might learn more from #1. So, either would also work for me.

I know I'm up, but will hold a tad until we have consensus.

-Griselda
 
I would prefer option #2, because it's more in line with the variant idea. It will slow down the game a bit, but that's okay for me.

Both options will lead to an easy victory anyway. With #1, the AIs would fund our research and would be broke nearly all the time, and if we refrain from selling techs at a ridiculous low price, they won't be able to catch up. With #2, they stand a small chance of catching up if they research different branches and trade among themselves, but our lead is so huge that I doubt that this will make any difference.

-Kylearan
 
Not unexpectedly, different thoughts :P

Hey Justus, glad you picked that up, it can be quite key to know at times :P

Good points about both, but it seems that #2, trying to go selfish, is close to consensus. Just a few other comments.

Aggie you mentioned that '1' was new territory. I'm not sure if you followed the QSC series a while ago but that *really* drove home in my mind that if your top goal is "earliest" space space launch it is by FAR the best way to go. It was rather counterintuitive I must admit to basically give away techs for nearly free throughout the whole game, just for the chance that another civ can research a tech that you don't have to, shaving 4 turns off the launch time.

As others pointed, out, selfish does indeed fit best with the style. Selfish interests me for two reasons, really:
- In most games, it turns out that a single player on the team can, and at some point does, sell out older techs for bottom basement prices and forces a coop approach to science even if everyone else has been careful not to sell cheaply.
- I would love to find out how far ahead a human player can stay if he doesn't give much up in tech, and I can't see a better chance to find out than in this game.

Gris, that "arg, I should have sold last turn" only hurts in two cases - i) when their gpt disappears cuz they buy another tech from an AI (not a real issue here), or ii) when you have a chance to sell at "high" but not "fair market" value to one civ, and then another gets the tech and breaks the monopoly. So even when playing selfish sci, here's what you want to do:

- Keep a close eye on sale prices for techs
- When one civ is about to break in on a monopoly (ie they will only pay a small amount but when asked for more say 'doubtful' instead of 'never'), sell that tech then, to anyone who can pay well for it, starting with the one who can afford the most.
- If several can pay close to market price for it, sell to all who can do so, otherwise gpt will end up going to an AI instead of you and they will get the tech anyway.
- Do not sell before this, and do not sell if they can only pay a pittance - let them languish behind. Gifting techs to underdogs just let AI research down different branches and help each other.

So 'selfish' isn't "never sell", but "never cut them a break" -- as some mentioned, if they are led to pay through the nose it will both slow down their research and speed up ours, which is ideal.
Scrappy even! There ya have it... good luck Griselda!

Charis
 
Originally posted by Charis
Aggie you mentioned that '1' was new territory. I'm not sure if you followed the QSC series a while ago but that *really* drove home in my mind that if your top goal is "earliest" space space launch it is by FAR the best way to go. It was rather counterintuitive I must admit to basically give away techs for nearly free throughout the whole game, just for the chance that another civ can research a tech that you don't have to, shaving 4 turns off the launch time.

I mentioned that it was something new for me. I am aware of the fact that others naturally did this before. That's a big part of why I want to play SG's with these people: I learn a thing or two :) Thanks for the QSC series tip, I will have a look.
 
I guess where I get confused is not knowing how much of a discount AI give to AI when selling, especially if I don't know fair market value of an individual tech and I don't have a monopoly. The AI civ might not have enough to give me fair market value, but they do have enough to buy it from an AI.

Actually, I suspect in most of those cases an AI gpt deal expires mid-turn and is renewed for a new tech, and there's not much we can do about that.

Scrappy science it is! :hammer:

-Griselda
 
(0) 1300 AD - Wow, look at that pretty land! Sea to shining sea!

Scrappy science mode confirmed- the Iroquois lack industrialization, electricity, and sanitation, and don't have any gpt. Egypt has electricity, but not sci. method, and has moderate gpt. Zulu is in the same spot, but has no gpt. Ditto for the Aztecs with a small amount of gpt. The Hittites continue to be lame.

Scrappy lux mode confirmed- cancel all lux deals, then renegotiate to include the one we're missing, making sure we're getting the best possible price.

Wines, silks, and gems to the Aztecs for furs and 26 gpt. Wines, silks, gems, and 67 gpt to the Zulu for ivory and dyes. The Zulu still only have around 40 gpt left because we had been paying them something for lux already.

We could raise science and get rep. parts in 3 at a deficit, but that would be silly considering we have ToE due in 4.

Salmanca is not hopelessly corrupt, so I swap it to a courthouse. York, too.

We want Hoover and Suffrage, and don't really have competition for either. We won't be needing coal plants with Hoover expected so soon. Lagash will stay on Suffrage for a Hoover prebuild (yes, we'd have time to build Hoover second, but with that production boost I'd prefer to take a small risk with Suffrage). Umma to Batt. Med. for a Suffrage prebuild. Tippecanoe and Isin to hospital. Kisurra and Der allowed to grow.

We have several unguarded cities. I do no think they're an actual risk to us. But, I wonder if they appear to be a risk to the AI. I send the army into Oka (with another unit on the way to replace it). A cav moves into Hastings. I rush a rax in Neodakheat. Also, I send some extra units to Kuara for flip protection (heh, just read RBC1 before I played this). I rush a uni. in Kuara too.

BT - Egypt wants a MPP. :P London worker - temple. Sumer stock - cathedral. Panama West temple - market. Kuara uni - cathedral. Neodakheat rax - rifle.

(1) 1305 AD - Rush rifle Kiohero. Build railroads. Some AI can pay full market for sci. method and sanitation if they include communism in the deal. We do want communism, but probably as part of a second civ's trade, not a first. We wait.

BT - Hittites want MPP. Did somebody forget to tell these guys that we're scrappy? :crazyeye: Ganogeh worker - worker. Isin hospital - stock. Kiohero rifle - temple.

(2) 1310 AD - Science to 60%. Musket arrives in Oka, army out. Rush cathedral Kuara, and rifle at Neodakheat.

BT - Kuara cathedral - harbor. Neodakheat rifle - rifle.

(3) 1315 AD - Science to 50%, rep. parts in 1. We can't lower science and hire scientists to make it up. We're getting some pollution in the core, but we have lots of workers now, so it's not a big deal.

BT - Rep. parts in, to atomic theory, of course. Complete the Theory of Evolution. Take atom. theory and electronics. Study refining.

Ur ToE - bank. Coventry worker- worker. I'm not going to mention if the outlying cities build workers anymore, unless I swap them off workers. Tippecanoe hospital - bank. Kahnawaka bank - factory.

(4) 1320 - Lagash to Hoover - due in 5. Umma to Suffrage - due in 14. We could do with a bit more income to afford 90% science and save a turn. But, we have more economic improvements on the way, and Smith's too. So, it will only get better and better. One more turn on the Egypt gpt deal, and I bet they'll be ready to buy something. Gewauga needs a specialist. Rush infantry Neodakheat. Grand River and Oil Springs to courthouse.

BT - Hittites sail into our territory. Egypt declares war (they hadn't been in our lands), and sneak attacks Kuara with a unit from Asyut. They attack with an ancient cav (!) and win, so luckily we had those extra flip suppresion units in there to hold the city. They don't send additional units.

Sumer cathedral - bat med. Chondote something (forgot, oops) - market. Panama East market - hospital. Neodakheat infantry - galleon.

(5) 1325 - Attack the redlined ancient cav with an elite Enkidu and win, no fish. Gather armies for Asyut, which is guarded by a pike. 18/18 army attacks and wins, and a spear is up. That army is out of movement, so another steps up. Asyut is ours, and, finally, the backlands are clear!

Our worker priority this turn is to connect those last few cities so that we can defend against landings anywhere. We have enough to do that and tackle this turn's pollution. I don't plan to go into war mode, and I don't expect the Egyptians to be much of a threat when they have to orchestrate a landing. We're done with this world and have our sights set on space!

Without Egypt's gold, which would have been due to expire this turn anyway, we have 108 gold and -81 gpt. Yuk. However, the lux tax can go off with the war happiness. That alone takes us to +18 gpt.

I'm a little concerned about Kiohera's defense. London to galleon so we'd at least be able to send units if it looks like a target.

BT - Egypt sails up to some mountains that we have workers on. Beware the railroad crew blockade! Ur bank - stock. Kish military academy - infantry. Gandasteaigon court - market. Asyut resistance ends.

(6) 1330 - The Egyptian ships turn out to be just two frigates off the coast of Asyut. We bombard and redline them, but, lacking a navy, can't kill them. I also remember, this turn, to make sure that all our armies are on the rail network.

The Zulu can pay market value for sanitation this turn. It's a shame that I can't talk to Egypt, because I have no idea what they have. We may not have a monopoly there anymore. I trade with the Zulu for 149 gpt and 17 gold. I don't trade with the Aztecs, as they have only about 8 gpt. Science to 90%, refining in 4.

BT - With all the excitement about the Egyptians, I'd forgotten all about the Hittites. I don't recall noticing them after the turn that they sailed into our borders. The certainly didn't advance, or I'd have noticed them. So, they must have either sailed back out or stayed put on the edge of our territory. If the latter is true, then I forgot to boot them last turn. They remind us, oh-so-politely, by allying with the Egyptians and declaring war on us. They send some galleys. The Egyptian frigates I'd wounded last turn retreat. More appear to our west.

Tyendenage uni - bank. Akshak bank - stock.

(7) 1335 - There's one Egyptian frigate and three Hittite galleys near Oil Springs. I wound all incoming ships, but can't redline any. Asyut to harbor. I do some mining around the Panamas. They could be decent little cities if they could just get some shields.

The Aztecs have sanitation! I know they could not have paid anyone, even the AI, for it last turn. Nobody who has sanitation lacks communism, either. They must have either researched it or renewed a gpt deal. I wish I could see what Egypt is up to.

BT - Wounded boats retreat. Kish infantry - infantry. Agade bank - stock. Erech stock - cathedral. Wall Street popup. Palace expands.

(8) 1340 AD - The Infantry go to London where they can be sent to Kiohera, if the next leader agrees. The Iroquois have 30 gpt now. The Aztecs and the Zulu both have electricity and are broke. I blame Cleo. Boo! I'd show her my "furious" face, but she won't even talk.

BT - Ur stock - wall street. Lagash completes Hoover Dam - infantry. Isin stock - cathedral.

(9) 1345 - Hmm, there's one tile that's north of Oil Springs that might be poachable. I don't think we should settle on it, with OCN working how it does, but we should blockade it. I send some workers to build a road on the tile so we can move onto it.

BT - Egypt finally lands some units - four cavs. The Hittite galleys and Egyptian frigate are back. Refining is in, start steel. Kish inf - inf.

(10) 1350 AD - We kill all four of the cavs that landed with the same army. Yawn. We also wound all the boats in sight. No AI will talk. We have to turn science to 80% to erase the deficit.

Keep an eye on Kiohero's defense, and of course that island up there. The mainland seems to be holding its own fairly well. We're in war happiness from both AI, but might do better losing the war happy if we can separate the Egyptians from their money. We'll see, I guess.

Scrappy again!

PS- Mr. Gris says he already knew I was a warmonger. :lol:

I'm guessing that everyone here already knows, but just in case somebody missed it, Epic 38 is open now at RBCiv. There's a problem with the ftp and I couldn't update the site, but the information and start file is available on the forum
 
Well, since I'm responsible for the wacky turn order last round, I suppose I should post the correct and up to date order here so that it can be on this page.

Charis -- Getting ready
Kylearan
Grimjack
Aggie
Griselda-- Just played
Speaker -- About to start playing

Speaker, I know this leaves you up here and in Rise of Rome, so holler if you're feeling swamped! :help:
 
IT- Nix the battlefield medicine. It is too valuable as a prebuild and we have several wonders to build in the future. A few cities switch to Civil Engineers from policemen where it speeds up builds.

Up science and put two core cities on wealth and save a turn on Steel. Sell coal plants.

1355AD (1): Railroading former Iroquois lands.

1360AD (2): Peace with Egypt who gives 30 gold. Start maximizing our core for shields. Egypt will pay full value for Scientific Method, so I take 130gpt and 100 gold. This should let us research at 100% and get our account up to 1000 by the end of my turn. I take 25gpt from the Aztecs, who won't give Communism, because they'll get it anyways next turn.

1365AD (3): Wall St finishes. Core is entirely on wealth now. All we have to build is military, which I don't see a point of. With our continent secure, we have nothing to fear.

1370AD (4): Drop science with Steel due in 1.

1375AD (5): Start Combustion, due in 5 turns at 100% with 271gpt. Make peace with the Hittites and they throw in 100 gold.

1380AD (6): We take a slight war happiness hit and I start cathedrals in a few big cities.

1385AD (7): Getting sick of managing the workers, so I've stacked them around Ur.

1390AD (8): Nothing much.

1395AD (9): Nothing much.

1400AD (10): Start Mass Production, due in 4 at 100% with 197gpt. Renew luxury deals.

Conclusion- Easy, boring turns. How long until space?

Scrappy Sumerians

Charis -- Playing now
Kylearan
Grimjack
Aggie
Griselda--
Speaker -- Just played
 
No one wanted to be scrappy this reign :goodjob:

[0] 1400 AD - Some cities need adjustment. Queues look pretty good.
[1..3,5..7] zzz :P
[4] 1420 - Mass production done, flight due in 5? We'll have to add on some
scientists :P We try, but still can't reach four.
[8] 1440 - IBT Iro and Aztecs ally vs Egypt.
[9] 1445 - Flight arrives, Motorized Transport due in 4. Colossus rendered
obsolte, which riots London.
[10] 1450 AD - This reign I chopped a whole bunch of tundra forests. If a tundra
spot has a mine on it, it's been chopped.

That didn't take long...
I've traded with no one and have no intention to. If they want to get scrappy...
come get some! We're preparing a fleet of bombers for any such nonsense! :hammer:

Charis
Kylearan <-- UP
Grimjack <-- On Deck
Aggie
Griselda
Speaker

RBC6 Save file 1450AD

Let's be scrappy!
Charis
 
For what it's worth at that stage of the game, I micromanage lots of specialists to speed up production in several cities without losing research. Orders look fine, the only thing I change is a cruiser to battleship. I'm not sure what the advantages of cruisers should be, but maybe I'm overlooking something here because I never built one. ;)

:hmm: Our military advisor explicitly states that we have 0 trebuchets...? :crazyeye:

The Aztecs demand atomic theory. :rolleyes:

I bore myself with improving the few unimproved tiles left.

I haven't been able to drop the ETA for radio to four, and five was only possible at -407gpt, so I renegotiated peace with Egypt and gave them wines and silks for 304 gold and 29gpt. And because we are hurting for money, I merged some workers into our cities, but we could possibly merge or even disband more I guess. I also stopped producing bombers after some turns to save money. The Aztecs had over 150gpt to offer for our techs, but I didn't sell them anything because they're worth more than that.

Our navy is gathering east of Zabalam and west of Oil Springs.

The Zulus get bought by the Aztecs into the war against Egypt.

We are now modern and got fission as our free tech. I have set research on computers in 6, and Ur, Lagash and Isin are now building the UN, Manhattan Project and battlefield medicine respectively. Once computers are available, switch the most productive city to SETI and our core to research labs.

Run away with the game

Roster:
Charis
Kylearan
Grimjack <-- UP
Aggie <-- on deck
Griselda
Speaker
 
Got it
Grimjack

If I understood the consencus correct, I should not sell techs at below optimum price even though it would cost us turns on our own research.
 
Yes, that's the way I understand our scientific way of life. Because of that, I hadn't been able to sell any tech and lost a turn on radio because our money ran out.

Oh, and of course in my report I meant that they city producing the most beakers should be switched to SETI, not the most productive. :crazyeye:
 
:eek: What?!? Indeed - we have an SGL fortified in Ur, and already had it at the beginning of my turn which I totally missed. Since when do we have him? :rant: Good that you saw him, Aggie!

Anyway, the rules say we should use him for an age of science which comes in handy at the moment. In fact, I could have used it, too, but didn't see him.
 
Originally posted by Kylearan
Anyway, the rules say we should use him for an age of science which comes in handy at the moment. In fact, I could have used it, too, but didn't see him.
Good, now we can check out if that SGL really helps. I've used it once before and didn't get a shorter science time to the next tech(s).

EDIT: It appeared so in the turn that I used the SGL, but at the end I had to research just as many turns as normal...
 
RBC6-Scrappy Sumerians. 1500AD

There is really not much to do except check for trades. We need to do a deal soon, or we will run out of money. Too bad the barbarians are too poor to properly pay tribute to our scientists.

IBT: Hmm

1505: Wake up a bunch of workers and irrigate the far north. Merge a couple.

IBT: Lose Ivory and Dyes. Resign the deal with Zulues with Ivory and Dyes for Corporation, Silks and Gems. ( For only Corporation it is close to a deal. )
Iros sign up Hittites against Egypt

1510 Sell Atomic Theory to Zulus for Communism and 567 gold. ( I want to be able to build police stations in our north. )
Sell Corporation to Egypt for Incense and 511 gold. No one has even a single gpt to offer for our fine techs. weird.

IBT: Hmm, thought I was all set, but Aztecs wants more for their precious furs. Not even three of our luxes would buy his single lux, so he will have to go without.
I thought the extra lux I bought from Egypt kwould cover the lapsed fur deal, but I was wrong, and I have a riot before I can use scroll ahead to prevent more. The Zulu realize we wont build any embassies soon, so they build one in our capitol instead.

1515, 1520, 1525

IBT: Computers comes in, and I start Miniaturization.

1530 Start Seti in Ur, and move United Nations to Lagash. I hope I can run a prebuildsomewhere for Internet. Isin gets the Palace instead of Battlefield Medicine.
Start a coupel of research labs anyway. May shave a turn or two off of Miniaturization. I have eight turns on Minis at both 90 and 100 % research. I use 100% anyway, since the incoming research labs might tip the turn easier if I have put the beakers in.
Sell iron and gems to Egypt for spices and 290 gold.

IBT: It was sufficient to get a single research lab online to cut a turn off of Miniaturization. ( Yup, we have cities capable of building a lab in one turn :) )

1535,

IBT: Someone razed the supplier of our ivory, and Ur riots:( . Lots of cities need fiddling.

1540 Buy Furs from Aztecs for three luxes and 11 gpt. I could get another lux from Zulu, but I would have to pitch in a tech sale. SInce he cannot pay full price, only some 72 gpt, he wont get any techs, and we don't get any luxes.
We could get full price on paper, by taking Espionage, Ironclads or Fascism as payment, but I suspect that would break the spirit.
I will allow our coffers to go below 1000 coins now, as I really want Miniaturization. Hopefully some AI will have money available soon.

IBT: Iroq and Egypt sign peace.

1545 No deals available. AIs still fascists.
Need more lux, so I make a semi bad deal. Trade Steel ( Our cheapest tech ) to Zulus for Ivory, Espionage, 80 gpt and 190 gold..

IBT: Iros and Egyptians go to war again.

1550 Aztecs are the only ones with money, and they have only 22 gpt. Hopefully the AIs will be able to help us out soonish, or we will have to stop researching 100%. Hopefully Internet when it comes online can help us out in keeping researches short and sweet.
There are some things that could be done to help our economy.
1) Merge our native workers. We may have enough slaves to keep pollution under control. My worst turn saw two mountain pollutions and one hill though, but I do not think our workforce should be dimensioned after needs such as those.
2) Sell off hardware that is not needed any longer, such as barracks.


Save is here

Grimjack
 
Back
Top Bottom