RBGC SG5: Training Day SHADOW THREAD

[Bam-Bam]

Not a bad turn here. Your tax settings look good, and your spend rates are ok, actually you could have spend more. I am not sure why you are still on military, or why you are building a constructor at Earth. We are too poor (and isolated) to be really worrying about resources just yet. This is not a big priority. You have enough freighters moving, and about the right number of colony ships. You are building constructors on a lot of planets. Probably could have moved to research a month or two ago.

There is no mention of you looking for trade opportunities. They are now gone in your game--the Caranoids know all of our techs. When you have an advantage in some specific techs, it pays to be mindful and watch the diplomatic screens for trade opportunities. Not a huge problem, but you lost the opportunity to gain something from our advantage with Trade.

One last thought--you should be looking to be spending at or just higher than what we are taking in. Believe me, once the trade routes start building up, we will be able to put some coins away.

Overall, not a bad turn. You stuck with social and military longer than I would prefer, and you missed opportunities on the trade front.

 

[JaxomCA]

Improved environmen is a good tech to research at this stage of the game. You have many worlds way below 3 billion in pop and you can't keep them at 100% morale so the added 10% growth rate will be worth it. The tech is also ignored by the AI but brings good trading value. In my games, I rarely research it anymore unless I have some leftover money to spend on research and there is no other tech the AI will neglect long enough for me to get it first.

On the official thread, you put the hammer on G-Force for trading for cold fusion. I find it is an important tech to acquire in trade as soon as possible since it opens up the way to interstellar refining, another tech the AI never research.

 

[Brackard]

My thoughts on holding out on trading: The AI rarely/never researches the improved enviro tech (in my experience). The techs are missing aren't going anywhere. Seeing as I would have moved back over to colony ship production for a new colony ship or two, there wasn't any hurry for me to grab those techs. It would have given the AI a bit more time to research a few other itmes for me to take a look at when I got back around to researching and trading.

Regarding the spending, yes I had looked at it and know I would have adjusted spending.

As far as social spending, what I really wanted to do is get banks/soil on all my first round planets. (Civil counts as 2nd round). Earth managed to get through soil/banks/entertainment center during that time, and I knew that would probably be where i would have my Econ capital, so I went ahead and started progress there while the rest of my colonies finished soil/bank.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Jaxom--I agree that cold fusion is a worthwile tech. What I did not like was that he could have gotten more from Trade. The minor AIs were willing to give up cold fusion for a first level tech such as med theory or ind theory. For example, in my shadow, I was able to get Cold Fusion and Industrial Tech for Med. Theory and Weapons Theory. Cold fusion IS important for exactly the reason you mentioned.

 

[_G-Force_]

@Bam-Bam I won't have the time to play the next year, so don't wait for me to report in. Just letting you know so that you don't hold up the game for me.

G-Force

 

[aviator99_uk]

As it doesn't seem to have been mentioned I hope Bam-Bam won't mind if I raise a "training" topic.

Here's a question to make people think:

To colonise this type of map there are (at least) two basic methods.
1) build loads of CSs at Sol and send them out.
2) build CSs at the new colonies. (BTW my preference)

We saw Bam-Bam with over a dozen CSs in flight at the end of turn 2 (I think it was) which is an example of 1.

I don't believe this necessarily has a 'right' or a 'wrong' answer, but what are the pros & cons gentlemen?

Aviator

 

[Brackard]

Ok, initial thoughts:

1) Lots of CS at Sol and send them out:
Pros: Additional colonies never suffer from loss of population. Sol will be the only colony supplying CS population. Relatively quick turnaround of colony ships from Sol.
Cons: Potential for oversupply of colony ships. Potential for population to be useless while in transit versus productive (and taxpaying) at the planet.

2) Building CS at new colonies.
Pros: You know relatively how many colony ships will be needed through your explorations. Sol quickly becomes a powerful planet with no loss of population. Population is in transit for less time.
Cons: Stunted growth at new colonies because of new CS production (and population). The new CS will be smaller than those from Sol unless you dessimate new colony population. CS will take a bit longer to produce at these new colonies.

 

[Rojo]

Having all ships originate from Sol could lead to a slower expansion dependant on how you expand as you will have longer and longer trips to make to reach the outskirts of your realm, while those planets that have just settled are on the edge and can cover more ground quicker.

My 2 cents.

 

[blacksmoke]

I probably approach this round wrong we will see.

Initial

Colony ship in flight 1
Freighter in flight 2

Torain
Impluse Drive

We have
Dip, Ind Theory, Trade


Carniods
Deflector

We have
Ind Theory, Medical Theory


Jan 2181
switch to 100 research
cut spending to 50%
Research Basic Environment Control

Rational: Base on comment we should started research sooner. I went for Basic Environment Control for the pop Bonus and Habit

Feb 2181
ship movement

March 2181
Complete research and new research Nano Electronics
Trade with Carnoid Bas Env Control for Impluse Drive

Apr
Complete research
100 Social

May
ship movement

June
send colony ship to section 13-11

Jul
Ship movement

Aug
ship movement

Sept
2MC done ->Habit

Oct
Election - we held
Send Freighter to Hoth

Nov
Alarian Communication
Send Freighter to Alcyone

Dec

Vote evil 1 trade route

 

[Brackard]

Okay, so we are at the break even point. Nothing left in the bank. Goals this turn, increase the bankroll, get a few more colony ships out, and get research going. I want the greens and blues if possible. So off we go. And oh, like I said, the Torians are screwed. With only two planets, it’s only a matter of time.

Before we start researching, let’s take a look at the trading picture:

Torains: down impulse drive (300), up: ind theory (50), trade (130), diplomacy (120) that’s exactly a 1-1 on cost. 59 IP,

Caranoids: down deflectors (an AI do not trade tech), up med theory, ind theory. No trades here.

We are slightly less diplomatic but I go ahead and pull the trigger on the impulse drive. That will speed up our freighters and colony ships. Nothing done with the Caranoids.

Jan: Can’t purchase colony ship, move to research. Survey heading E. First up, Med Theory, 50 RP. 100/120 * 50 = 42 RP. Set to 45 sp.

Feb: Oops, weapon theory researched. Let’s try again. Basic Env. Control. 220 RP. *100/120 = 183RP Set to 67 for 3 turns. 20 income coming in.

Mar: Movment

April: Movment

May: Comes in. Switch to Imp Env Control . 320 *100/120 = 266. Spending set to 94 for 3 turns.

June: Movement

July: Movement

Aug: Freighter hits, 5 extra/month. Research missed. Spending cut down to minimal research. Gives us some reserves at least. Tactitus surveyed. Worthless.

Sep: Imp Enviro comes in. Interstellar refining next. 200 * 100/120. =166. Research set to 60 points.

Oct: Meet the Altarians. Have vote. Win with 100%!! Nice. They are up deflectors and shields. We don’t need deflectors, and shields were expensive. Decided not to try this offhand. Meet the Alexians. They have nothing on us tech wise.

Nov: Nothing, but we do see Yor influence to the NE.

Dec: Missed Imp Enviro. Again, drop refining spending to minimal. Puts more money in the account. Need to learn to adjust spending up a bit for researching.

Jan: Interstellar refining comes in, freighter hits altarians (on autopilot, would have taken off for my turn).

Save

 

[aviator99_uk]

Let's think deeper.
CSs can only be built with Mil spend. Quick CSs implies 100% Mil spend. 100% Mil spend applies to all planets. Do we want to build CSs at all planets? Is this wasteful? If we do one blast of CSs we may never need to go back to Mil spend for years. If we want to build CSs quickly at new colonies we have to spend far longer on Mil spend to the detriment of Social & Research, everywhere. Can this be worth it?

 

[Rojo]

Unfortunately, I do not know how all the numbers work yet in terms of population versus morale versus income. I have seen mention of caps and such and how after a certain amount of pop, morale will decrease, but beyond that, I have not figured it out.

However, CS can be purchased if need be. You could leave military spending long enough for the major planets to pump something out, and buy the rest, thereby allowing to move over to Social or Research a little quicker.

Building CS at all planets is not necessarily wasteful as the spending stays in the queue if you switch, so you could just focus for a few rounds.

I would say that leaving military spending longer to get the CS out would be worth it dependant on size of map, influence detected, access to systems and what contact we already have etc.

Make any sense?

 

[Brackard]

A second round of mil spending will need to be completed anyway for freighters. This will be accomplished from your highest growth planets while your secondary planets build CS. Any additional planets can begin prebuilds for constructors (if nothing else). Wasteful? A little maybe, but I don't see it being any less wasteful than having a CS with 150M running around without a destination?

 

[JaxomCA]

After 4 or 5 years into the game, if I need a colony ship to claim a newly discovered yellow star, I simply buy it from the closest planet. If I don't have enough cash to buy it, a turn or 2 of 0% spending should bring in enough money to buy a colony ship.

But as Brackard said, just after you get trade and do a military rush for some freighters, you should get enough colony ships out to complete the landgrab.

Oh, on a gigantic map, I typically have 10-15 colony ships with 30 to 100 million pop in each of them just sleeping in space because they ran out of planets to colonize. And that's after grabbing all the 14's I could find. I never bother with 13 or 12 unless I need a range extension or want to culture flip some AI worlds.

 

[Bam-Bam]

hmm--first action is to get the economy in the black. Taxes raised and spending cut. Torians will offer impulse for diplomacy, Trade, and ind. theory. WOW, how generous of you, ET!

January

Switch spending to 100% research. SiBCaT says that spending 106rp will get Basic Environment in 2 turns.

February

Caranoids learn impulse drive and will give it up for the theories of industry and medicine. Hero boosts its weapons by a point.

March

Basic environment comes in. We are short on colony ships, time to build a few. Come to think of it, I should have done this right away

April



May

Unukalhai colony ship with 175M.

June

Earth and Unukalhai 175M colony ships. Hero picks up another weapons boost.

July

Colony ships launch from Sivil and Cherryh (x2)with 200M colonists.

I buy the last two months of production out of piers for 62bc + 4 bct for 48 months. Spending shifted to social. I put Habitat in the queue right after banks. Junk system spotted NE if Piers.

August

Colony ship from Piers with 175M colonists.

September

Piers completes a bank. We meet the Alterians.

October

Earth completes habitat and starts econ capital. I'd like a manu capital before trade good building. We have a nice trade available with the goodies...

I could have traded impulse instead of propulsion theory and trade, but I want them to stay slower and have freighters running around. Hero picks up a 2% bonus to our overall ship attack.

November



December

Habitat completes on six planets. ET learns something useful...

Of course, I pulled the trigger on that trade, and noticed this...

They must have traded for it, because they were short on advanced gravity, controlled gravity's prerequisite. Ah well.

Time for a UP vote

Junk white star spotted up north.

End of Year

We meet the Alexians, who have nothing on us tech wise. Another habitat completes. Only Piers lacks habitat, due in 2. I would let it complete, if I were to continue playing these turns. We are in a commanding lead of the civs we know.

Here is a shot of the tactical map.

Notice the Drengin influence up north.

Not much more to say. Despite some misteps, this game is well on its way. Our population growth and land grab have been good, and we will likely net a few more planets to the east and south.

The Shadow Game

 

[Bam-Bam]

Your rationale for how to start the turn makes sense. I picked the same tech--it is one of the first ones I go for after diplo-trade.

You timed it right--two months, but I cannot directly tell how well you are managing the funds. Since you left the turn with about the same debt as the start, I can infer that you are watching the pennies.

Trading basic environment for impulse is a bit too generous, but not a game breaker. There was not much else for you to trade at that point. Perhaps you could have waited on the trade until after Nano Electronics came in. Like a said, not a huge deal, but they're paying me to evaluate your moves, right?

You placed habitat in the queue right after soil. That's a good place. Another alternative is to put it after the banks. Both are equally valid.

I would have curtailed the social spending earlier, in favor of putting out a few more colony ships. There is not a great need to get manufacturing centers everywhere--you cannot support 100% spending now, and manu centers just allow you to spend more per turn on social and ships. You have plenty of time to complete the diplo translators. Better to get a few more colony ships out (along with another freighter), and research nano-metal composition (manu capital), interstellar refining (fusion plants) and advanced trade--and either trading or researching controlled gravity (gravity accelerators).

You also did not pull the trigger on some available trades with the Alterians. You could have gotten shields (battleaxes) for prop theory, diplomacy, and trade. Shields could then be used to get advanced grav. from the caranoids, or you could hold off until they get contolled grav. (better).

Overall solid turn. Only a few tweaks to be made. You are more than ready for your run at the helm next year. If you can--see if you can up the detail for the official game turn. Thanks.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Good analysis at the start of the turn. I chose not to pull the trigger on the trade with the Torians, secure in the knowledge that I could get a better deal from the minors. Your analysis is good--speed the ships enroute. That could mean another colony in a pinch.

You were a bit sloppy on the use of SiBCaT. Remember, it's finicky--good to check after the first month (of two) or second (of three) month of research. The game will correctly account for how much bonus research is occurring at your current spending level. If the game then says that you will not get the tech in one or two turns (as appropriate), then you need to up the research spending.

How many of us have been bitten by the Weapons theory gaffe?

I chided others a bit for staying on the social spending too long. You stayed on the research a bit too long. You could have pumped out habititat everywhere, and gotten a few more colony ships moving (and a freighter). At this level, we are not WAY behind on tech (in fact we are leading, for the most part), so continuing to pump research is not necessarily needed at this point. With all those unclaimed systems to the east and south--better to get the ships rolling now.

You could have traded for shields with impulse drive, med theory, and interstellar refining. Given that lineup, I might have passed, too. I got a much better trade--Trade, diplomacy, and prop theory--which are techs I want them to have (and they prioritize usually).

You went one month too long. Not a problem for a shadow.

Overall solid turn.

 

[Brackard]

You know, I never even CONSIDERED rechecking research after the first turn to see if I was on course for my proposed time lapsing. You are absolutely right. Ok, I feel a bit silly on that one.

On another note, Rojo, I thought you had an extremely good turn. Much better than what I would have done this turn. Nice job.

 

[Brackard]

Wow.

Great starting position for this turn. Taking a look at our situation, we will basically own the southern portion of the map. I also note a Torian Constructor headed towards what I’m guessing one of ‘our’ resources. Guess there’s not much to do about that at the moment.

Goals for this turn:

1) I will go ahead and colonize Thebes (what a system!)
2) Move ahead and reserah Imp Env. To get pop up on all the newer systems
3) Move ahead into social improvements

But first, let’s see what we have on the trading front:

Torians:
+Ind theory (50), Basic Env (220), Inter Refining (200)
-Controlled gravity (300), Deflectors (x)

Altarians:
+ A lot
- Delfectors (x), Shields (500)

Alex:
+ A lot
Controlled Gravity (300)

Caranoids:
+ Int Refining (200)
- Deflectors (x)

Interests: Shields and controlled gravity. Neither seems to be a high priority right now, but let’s take a look. (I’m not planning on starting military, and range isn’t really an issue at the moment)

With Altarians: Trade (130), Ind Theory (50), Cold Fusion (100) for Shields (500) and 60 IP? Yeah, I’ll take it.

With Alex: Med Thry (50), Ind Thry (50), for Controlled Grav (300) and 50 IP. Yeah, I’ll take that too.

We’ll see what Bam-Bam has to say about those.

Jan: Ok, change over to the research page. Change to Imp Env Control. 100/120 *320 = 266. Change spending to 92 so should be done in April. Move a bunch of colony ships. Colonize Thebes. Get a free ship. There you go then. Also notice we haven’t had any espionage on either Torians or Altarians. I move it up to the first notch for now.

Feb: Freighter hits with Altarians. Ship movement.

Mar: Kwin build Econ Cap. Sarveyus surveyed up north. PQ 12, actually tempted to colonize. I’ll keep pressing North. Check research, looks good for next month.

Apr: Imp Env comes in. Switch over to social. We have most systems roughly 50% of the way through man centers. I believe habitat is right behind this on the scale. Seeing as we are at 100% morale, I think we can go ahead and keep the order the way it is. Earth will be working on Econ Cap after habitat. Torains are going after the military resource. Dren influence spotted to the North (west of the Yor influence)

May: Sidal, a 16/15/14 colonized. Good lord do we have a solid planet base. Redirecting a few colony ships to finish colonizing Thebes and Sidal.

June: Our freighter to Torians hit. Continue social work.

July: Earth completes Habitat. Moves to Econ Cap (we need the money). Two other planets finish manu centers and move to habitat imp.

Aug: Another Manu center comes in. Caranoid freighter arrives. Check trading opportunities, majors seem to be moving up the weapons tree. Minors not moving at all. No trades made.

Sep: 1 more manu comes in. Will persue another 2 rounds of social. It seems that a ton will come in during that time.

Oct: A manufacturing center, 2 soils, 2 habs come in. The Dren complete Aphros trade good. Greeeeat….. Tech resource scouted south of Alexians planets.

Nov: Alva PQ16, and Beetlegeuse PQ16 scouted way up North towards the Yor. I simply don’t believe how many planets there are for us here. Looks like we’ll need ANOTHER round of colony ships, especially if you throw in the PQ 14’s. Beetlegeuse settled. 2 manus, soil, habitat complete. Switch to military. Need another colony ship out of Beetlegeuse. The other planets set to start spitting out Battle Axes. We’ll start needing those in the north soon enough. (or for taking the minors, we shall see)

Dec: Thebes III settled. Jotunheim PQ15 spotted. And the landgrab freakin continues! Slight correction in building orders. Thebes II and Sidal to build colony ships to colonize their own systems. Major Dren influence moving in from the NW.

Altarians: Friendly, no change in tech
Torians: Warm, no change in tech
Alex/Caranoids: no change

Ending map

I know the trainees have received some kicking in regards to what we’ve been researching as opposed to what the AI generally researches. Do you have a rough guide on what the AI generally likes to research so we can at least get that series of kicks out of the way?

Brackard 2182

 

[Rojo]

Brackard - Thanks for the compliment.

I still made a few mistakes but overall I felt I had done an adequate job of the official game. I managed to avoid Bam-Bam's pungent weed!