RBGC SG5: Training Day SHADOW THREAD

[Rojo]

Rojo (2182 - 2183)

Jan 2182
Opening shot:

We have met the Carinoids and Alexians, and we are Neutral with the Altarians and Warm with the Torions. We see Yor influence NE. We are currently at 100 research.

Tax rate: 39%
Spend rate: 37%
Approval: 100%

Net Income: 12bc
Treasury: 24

We have 2 freighters and 9 colony ships on the move. I change to 100% social and I increase Spend rate to 41% which will help push out Mfg Centers and Habitats sooner. I leave some of the planets producing Mfg Centers, as they will be able to produce them sooner than habitat improvements, which should allow habitat improvements be pushed out quicker.

I check in with everyone to see what they have to offer.
Carinoids:
+ Deflectors
- Interstellar Refining

Alexians:
+ Controlled Gravity
- Artificial Gravity, Basic Environment Control, Cold Fusion, Impulse Drive, Industrial Theory, Interstellar Refining, Medical Theory, Propulsion Theory

Torians
+ Controlled Gravity, Deflectors
- Basic Environment Control, Industrial Theory, Interstellar Refining

Altarians
+ Deflectors, Shields
- Artificial Gravity, Basic Environment Control, Cold Fusion, Diplomacy, Impulse Drive, Industrial Theory, Interstellar Refining, Medical Theory, Trade

I make the following trades:

I settle Thebes. I find a scout and send it north. Freighter arrives at Altarian home world.

Feb 2182
I increase spend rate to 45%. Ships move.

Mar 2182
Get a report that the Kwilasians have builtan economic capital. We spot Tiberius System (12) in secotr 11-12 but will bypass. Also spot Sidal system (16/15/14) and head for it.
Get message about trouble between 2 majors:

April 2182
2 Mfg Centers and 1 Habitat Improvement built. Drop spend rate to 42% to keep net income above 0.

May 2182
Spot Drengin influence coming from north. We settle Sidal system. Freighter arrives at Torian home world. Increase spend rate to 44%.

June 2182
2 Mfg Centers Built and 2 Habitat Improvements built.

July 2182
Mid year report:

2 Habitat Improvments built, 2 Soil Improvements built, and Earth builds Fusion center. I change earth to work on Diplomatic Translators. I also change spend rate to 48%.

I check in with everyone for any trades and the best that anyone has to offer is Weapons Theory and Deflectors. I pass on the trades. More Drengin influence showing in the North. We spot Lacaille System (nothing), Beltegeuse (16) and Alva (16), all in the same sector NE. Head for Beltegeuse.

Aug 2182
Ships Move

Sept 2182
Spend rate increased to 52%. Find soldiering bonus. I decide to keep on with Social spending as we are ahead in Techs. I could change to Military to help Sidal and Thebes produce colony ships for its own systems, but prefer to build social.
We settle Beltegeuse and get an event. I decide to take neutral at this time.

Oct 2182
2 Habitat Improvements and 1 fusion center built. I switch Cherryh IV to build Gravity Accellerators. Alterians have Phasers, Photons and weapons theory to offer, but I hold off.

Nov 2182
More social built. Unukalhai set to build aphrodisiacs. Drop spend rate to 50%. Spot Jotunheim system (15/13) and send colony ship in that direction. Get economy bonus and fins an influence resource.

Dec 2182
More social built. Thindor system (20) spotted in secotr 11-6. Head colony ship in that direction.

Jan 2183
We have 3 systems that we will be able to settle within the next 2 turns, and will need to review where to focus our spending.

Year end shots:

Game Save

 

[blacksmoke]

delay
Hello team

I am sorry that will be delay this turn. Our small company had I change in ownership yesterday. The new owner has put some demands on me. It might be better if Bam-Bam or someelse takes my turns.

I will try keep everyone inform

Blacksmoke

 

[Bam-Bam]

Done. Consider this a swap. I will post the official game turn this evening. Comments to be up not later than tomorrow evening. Blacksmoke can then take my spot, and we will then revert back to the normal rotation.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Trades look good. I would have used med theory vs. ind theory in the Alterian trade (gives them less). I did not include ip (I almost never do--too much tedium for me ). Alexian trade is good. Good job recognizing that the better deal for controlled grav will be with the minor.

Good idea bumping up the espionage. I didn't, but it cannot hurt at this point. I usually start bumping up espionage after I get three or more trade routes completed, but that's a personal preference.

I see you settled the big boy at Thebes. This is another judgement call. Since the colony ship there was only 77M, I chose to pick one of the PQ15s first. Again, preference, but settling the PQ15s later with larger colony ships will make those planets the morale drag on the empire.

Your priority on manu centers vs. habitat is wrong. Habitat is FAR more important than manu centers at this point. I thought the governor was set to have these complete first. I have my game set on that the governor vetos current builds, so I was sure to get the habitats going first.

I am not sure what the rush is to finish settling systems we have already claimed. Better to finish scouting/claiming new worlds.

No need to fret over someone getting aphrodisiac. That is one of the most overrated trade goods. It's impact is limited because of the 200M/month growth cap.

I do not believe we need to be building axes quite yet. Better to pump out a few more colony ships, and some freighters.

Overall solid turn. The two areas that I would say you need to improve for this turn is to put colony ships to NEW systems to complete the system grab, and to hold off on the axe building.

EDIT: I have to give you a on having planets building news networks. These should only be built on planets that are in danger of flipping from AI cultural influence.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Good opening analysis, with one exception. You should have vetoed the manu centers and got the planets producing their habitats right away. Overall, you will get the habitat sooner (better tax income and morale) by producing it first rather than waiting for the manu center. The manu centers are not that important at this stage.

Good trades. Nothing to fault here.

Your scouting and settling looks good. You found the PQ20 up north, and even have another colony ship going north to grab the other PQ16. Good work. Same comment go on which planet to settle in Thebes, but this is a preference issue.

I have to diagreeon having earth build diplo translators before econ capital. With no manu capital in place here, you would have other planets building wasted improvements while waiting for this to complete. Better to get the econ capital, and then build a manu capital and burn through trade goods and wonders.

I cannot take great fault with you taking a neutral choice, other than I thought we were angling to the good with our two neighbors being good?

Lastly, having other planets build trade goods at this point is wasteful. I would also not be building embassies, since I rarely builld them until the middle of the game, if at all.

Overall, solid turn, with one main exception on your choice of trade good/social builds.

 

[Brackard]

As far as the manu centers go, the only reason I finished them up was because morale wasn't a problem. In my average game, I will have habitat before manu's. Seeing as I wasn't having morale problems, I figured I'd go ahead and finish the manus currently in process then head back to habs. The fact that I didn't change them in the governer, I'll take that hit. News networks are generally the very last thing I build. I honestly don't remmeber selecting them.

My switch to Battle Axes was basically a place holder. Should I have continued building colony ships?

 

[Bam-Bam]

I would have pumped one or two more colony ships out of the Unukalhai, and Cherryh systems (Cherryh system mainly because that would take pop off the PQ14 start planet). I would also have built some freighters out of Sol.

We don't yet need defense--our relations with the known majors are good, and better to send out the freighters towards the evils.

I'd have to recheck the planet listing on your save--I thought that you had put some turns into building news networks. I RARELY ever build them in any game.

 

[_G-Force_]

@Bam-Bam, schoolwork returns to normal, holiday coming up. I'll play my shadowturns again.

I see you switched, so I'll be taking your save then for starting.

G-Force

 

[Rojo]

If you thought some of my earlier years were questionable, you will find the the next ones will be as well. I honestly will admit that this is the part of the game where I am truly weakest as I am unsure where to focus.

At what point do you determine what strategy to employ in terms of Military, Alliance, Culture and Tech Victories? I know some people prefer to play one style or the other, but I like to keep my options open and will play it by ear. When do we as part of this training decide which strategy to work or do we work all simultaneously?

If there is no preference I would like to focus on a Military victory as I am a wimp when it comes to this style as I tend to wait until I have an overwhelming advantage. I would love to see the various strategies people employ, what risks people are willing to take and when to proceed. I definitely want to be critiqued on my moves.

Let me know what everyone feels about this or if we just let it play out as each person see's fit.

 

[Brackard]

I'm actually with you on this one Rojo. If you look at my record, I have a WHOLE bunch of alliance victories, a tech victory, and zero miltiary victories. Let's shoot for the military victory. We definitely have the planet base to do it.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Ok. I do not have a problem going for a military victory, but let's hear from the rest of the squad. It's a bit early to directly push down that path, so we have a few years of basic infrastructure building and tech reseach to get behind us. During that time, I would like to hear from the other members regarding victory types.

In the meantime, I would like each of the folks to articulate how their moves are setting up for pursuit of a military victory.

 

[Rojo]

This is where I have the problems. I typically go for social builds that boost production, research in areas to help improve soldiering bonuses, population growths and try to get wonders or goods to improve the same. I try to insure I have a good economic base and push towards battleship tech and work with that. I have rarely gone beyond this level, maybe to dreadnought.

I sit back and bribe the others to fight each other while they leave me alone to build up by me stopping on research and working social and then moving all to 100% military. Once they are weak enough, I pick one major and try to take out as many planets of theirs in one strike. Once I have finished off one major, I regroup my combat transports and do the same tactic to the next person and so forth.

I leave all the minors alone and use them for my economic base to support my armadas. Very straight forward, but at the levels I previously played, it worked. Lots of room for improvment and that is what I am looking at learning.

I do not know if that is what you were looking for.

 

[_G-Force_]

A militairy victory is fine by me. It's always fun when you got Excaliburs and they don't

G-Force

 

[blacksmoke]

Military - victory is okay with me

 

[Brackard]

Ok, we open this puppy up:

We’ve got a few colony ships on the way towards their destinations, a few more planets needing colonizing, and in the process of completing some social builds which includes the Econ capital on Earth. (should help bring in some much needed cash).

Although I’m generally a research freak, I’m actually thinking another round of military for a few more ships might be in order. We have quite a few double/triple planets that still need work and quite a few 13/14’s if we decide to use those as well. (Why not)

As far as the military victory goes, we need to push for a few trade goods such as Tristonium steel (I believe) and gravity accelerators. That means pushing towards the appropriate tecs, tri-stronium alloy and controlled gravity (which we have). We will also need a good size population base for invasions. This would indicate that we need to grab as many planets as possible, if nothing else for use in invasion forces. Look out PQ13/14 planets, here we come. This will also make the growth techs/trade goods more valuable. Because of our massive landgrab, our initial social/research push has been delayed, but if we can make it out of the slump, we’ll be just about unstoppable. Or those are my initial thoughts anyway.

Let’s take a look at the research side for trades:

Torians:
+ weapon theory, photons, deflectors
- interstellar refining, 0 grav research

Altarians:
+ weapon theory, photons, deflectors, phasers, battle armor
- interstellar refining, 0 grav research

Alex: Nothing to offer
Caranoids: deflectors, photosns

No trades made.

Jan: Free ship, moving to Beetlegeuse (most likely where needed) Anderson scouted PQ14. Tagged. Jotunhem PQ15 settled.

Feb: Research, 2 fusion, manu, and Econ capital come in. 1 more turn of social to go. Grav accelerators and Diplo set up in social queue for two planets. 17 months to complete apiece. I didn’t really know what else to queue. Thebes 2 settled with 150M. Thought it was more. Got this event.

Chose the good option. Settled Pithra I. Got this event.

Ouch, on the PQ. I chose neutral.

Mar: Alexians freighter hits. 2 fusions, 2 habs, and a soil complete. Amber I, PQ15 scouted. Colony ship en route.

April: 2 researches and a fusion hit. I have several planets without anything viable to move on in social, so I’ll have to stop right here. Moving over to military spending. Looking at our colony ship needs:

Needed:
2 colony ships at Sidal: PQ15/14 (east)
2 colony ship at Thebes PQ15 (east)
1 colony ship at Alva PQ16 (way up north, immediately)
1 colony ship at Piers PQ14 (central)
1 colony ship at Anderson (possibly one of the two already down there)
So that’s a minimum of 5-6 colony ships

So looking at my military spending graph, let’s see what we have here: The worst needs are in the north. Beetlegeuse, Umera, and Thindor having build times of colony ships of 3, 4 and 4 turns. Ugh. That will be difficult. I’ll have another army from the rest of the fleet by that time. Sivil will have a colony ship out next turn. Good. That will be the best we can do for the NE. The others can wait from planets currently in construction.

Due May:
Sivil: Load with 200M, head to Alva (PQ16)
Unukalhai colony ship: load up with 200M, head to Thebes (PQ18)

Due June:
Freighters: Earth, Sol IV, head up north to Dren/Yor
Cherryh I: Load with 100M, head to Sidal
Cherryh IV: Load with 150M, head NE

Due July:
Piers: Load with 50M, move to Piers (same system)

Due August:
Umera I: Load with 100M, head to Alva area, explore NE (or switch with the Sivil CS depending on distance)

Due September:
Beeltegeuse: load with 50M, explore E
Thindor: load with 50M, explore N

We’ll need some additional ships, but we’ll need to switch back over to social/research here shortly.

May: Meet the Kwinlisians. 3 colony ships produced.
Unukalhai: 200M to Thebes PQ15
Sivil: 200M to Alva
Cherrryh II: missed this one, 150M to Sidal PQ14

Kwin: up phasers, deflectors, wpn thry, down a lot

June: CS
Cherryh I: 150M to Sidal
Cherryh IV: 150M NE
Colonize Amber – event below, chose neutral

July: Dren pull in diplo translators
2 CS
Sivil: 200M, heading NE
Piers: 100M settled the PQ14, pirate event, chose the good side
In the above CS calculations, I didn’t take into account the small amount of time for some of the quicker planets, thus the multiple CS per planet. Good stuff. So with that being said, I can take off the last month. I only have 1 more month of CS production before back to research.

August: Umera, load 100M, head E Move the ship. Autoturn moves into next turn before I have a chance to change spending. Damn.

September: 3 colony ships produced.
Sivil – load with 100M head NE
Beetlegeuse – load with 50M for exploration
Thindor – load with 50M for exploration

Change spending first. 100% research Nano-metal comp. 500 needed, 416 dial up sibcat. Spending set to 230 for 2 turns. We COULD get it in one turn, but would take huge financial loss.

October: ships move

November: Gladstone scouted down in the bottom corner. Colony ship in route.
Vote: we win, 95 votes. Research comes in. Next up: Imp Env, spending set to make it for next turn.

December: Imp Enviro comes in. Gladstone settled, no event. Research set to adv trade for the extra trade routes for the freighters in progress.

Take a look at end of turn trades:
Alex: they are up adv trade and the weapons tree techs, let’s see what they want for adv trade (even though we’re one month in already, yeah, I’ll take the smack for this one).
Shields (500) & Basic enviro (220) for adv trade (900). Well, they won’t move from those two techs for adv trade, let’s see if we can get something else from them: phasers (250). Sure what the hell. I’ll take it.

Kwils would trade, but it was a bit uneven, so I declined for the moment. Same with Caranoids. Same with the majors.

Close with Torians, Friendly with Altarians.

End of year map and populations graphs:

edit: Save

 

[Brackard]

Well, if nothing else out of this training game, I'm increasing my reporting abilites for any future SG.

 

[JaxomCA]

Brackard, you seem to put a lot of emphasis on each tech value when setting up trades. Trading is not about research value, it is more about what do you get and how much it really costs you. A good trade is one where you get something you need NOW and you pay with techs the AI will get sooner or later anyway. A very good trade is one where you trade away to same techs to multiple AI. This reduce the trading ability between AI by making sure they stay roughly equal in techs.

I never research advance trade, I always acquire it from one of the AI, even paying bc per turn to get it. The economic exchange is a useful building with no maintenance cost, so I always use it to fill up the build queue of planets while my main worlds are building up wonders. It also allow an extra trade route, the sooner you connect your trade routes, the more money you make, so trade techs are always worth a lot more than the cost to research.

Actually, I rarely research any of the trade techs except xeno-intimidation when I go evil. I will research a trade tech if I have a freighter ready to connect and I can't get a trade tech from any AI. Of course, that is mostly applicable on maso, where the AIs can research much faster than the player.

 

[Brackard]

I guess this is where I'm stumbling in the dark then Jaxom. In my SP games, I rarely trade. I generally go through long periods of research followed by long periods of social builds. (Maybe THIS is why I never have time to put out military). If I make it, I generally have a big enough tech lead that it doesn't matter and I start spitting out military like nobody's busness.

When I do trade, I trade generally like I did in my turn: "Hmmm...this looks good. Let's see what else I can get" My goal in trading, getting everything I possibly could. Obviously, I'd trade the same tech to everyone to get as much as I could but my goals are more in the general: "get all the tech you can". This is why I accounted for the cost of techs when doing my trading.

My other problem here is I have no idea which techs the AI researches and which ones they don't. If I KNEW the AI made a B-line down the trade tree, I wouldn't worry about it and go for more optional techs. The only techs I know that I snag early are the early med techs. Outside of that, it's open season. I don't even know if this is the right thing to do?

So for you and Bam-Bam: What is your general research strategy? I don't need a tech by tech guide, but in general, which way do you go based on what you know about how the AI researches?

As I said in my official turn last time, the trainees will keep getting kicked for poor research choices. I have no idea on what the proper research choices are based on what you konw the AI is choosing that I don't.

After looking over your response again, I think you're saying I made the right move, just for the wrong reasons. lol

 

[Rojo]

Brackard - You are not the only one that has a problem with understanding what the AI researches. This information would indeed be useful for us.

I am like you in that I try to get as much tech from the AI in the trades, though I do try to avoid trading certain techs.

I am expecting to see a few pungent weeds from Bam-Bam over the next few years, but hey... that is why I signed up for this training, to learn as much as I can and improve my play. As a matter of fact, based upon the feedback we have received to date, I have already started to put this to good use in my personal games.

 

[JaxomCA]

Ah, right, I was saying you made the right move, I only wanted to point out that research cost is not the only thing to consider when trading.

Most AIs research all the early techs but they tend to go for basic environment last, sso this one is always one of my early priorities since I can get some good trades out of it. The trade route techs seems to have a high priority with many AIs, they usually go for them right after the same tier military tech, so I avoid spending research on these techs. These techs spread around rather quickly so I get all I can from everybody as soon as I have one. If there is nothing to have, I give them the tech to score brownie points and hope for more trade routes coming my way.

I usually research very few techs myself, less than half the tech for a whole game, when I do research it's as fast as possible. That is, 100% research for time intensive techs or as much as needed to get a tech in one turn otherwise.

My favored research path in the early game is:

1. comm. theory, universal translator. I put leftover spending in those techs until I meet someone. When I have one contact, I complete those ASAP.
2. med. theory, industrial theory, basic environment. This obviously depends on what techs my contacts know already.
3. I turn off research until I can trade for cold fusion. Then I research interstellar refining.
4. I turn off research until I run out of wonders to build.
   [/list=1]
   
   As you can see, many key techs are missing in that list. I trade for all those techs in most cases. There are exceptions depending on the setup. Sometimes I am all alone and I have to research diplomacy and trade myself. Other times, there are many stars just outside my reach and I can't extend my range even by using the worst planet available. In that case I will research up to controlled gravity as quickly as possible, trading for prerequisite techs if possible.
   
   The Altarian likes interstellar business and marketing, so I get them through trades. Most AIs will eventually research advance diplomacy but I put a high priority on stadiums so I will go straight for Extravaganza after the early wonder building phase.
   
   In the mid-game, I will go for gravity mastering (more range) and hyperspace (more speed + hyperion manufacturing) unless the Arcean are in decent shape, they go for these techs early. At this point, I take the time to put 300 bc in espionnage on the 2 races with the most systems. This way, I can see what they are researching so I can better plan my research. When one of the AIs begins instant communications, he will get it, then Alliance and then Star Democracy. I pay bc per turn for each of these techs as soon as they are available. Once I have Star Democracy, I will research Star Federation as quickly as possible, otherwise an AI might get it first and build the galactic monument in only a few turns.
   
   I never research what I call the metal serie (high density metals, advance engineering, tri-strontium, exotic alloy and large scale building). I pay bc per turn for Large scale building to the first AI to get it, then trade it for all the other metal techs to the second AI when he begins researching it.
   
   I also never research military techs, the minors will get them soon enough, at least up to Dreadnoughts if they live long enough. Then again, my style doesn't involve much fighting so I never find myself in need of firepower. In a more military game, I would trade or buy the prerequisite to dreadnoughts and research that as fast as possible.
   
   Wow, that was long-winded, I hope you find something of use in here.