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Real Science Pace - Empire size impacts research speed.
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Real Science Pace - Empire size impacts research speed.
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- Thread starter Infixo
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Leyrann
Deity
So basically, with this mod, having more places where people can develop new technologies means that it takes longer for them combined to develop those technologies? (you yourself said that after 4-5 campuses they're not worth the investment anymore. Or at least the buildings)
@Leyrann Just curious, how did you react in Civ5 - having more cities causes that inventions are harder to make? It's equally absurd 
This is just a game balancing mechanism.
@Klazart Actually, the negative effects of having multiple entities to coordinate their actions are quite well known in RL. Scientific centers have to communicate, compare results, exchange data, etc. The more there are, the more time-consuming it is, the more bureaucracy it involves, etc. So, you have less time for making actual science, hence the decrease in output. And this effect IS present in RL, you simply don't see it clearly as there many centers usually working on multiple different things. In Civ however, you always discover ONE technology at a time, so you have to coordinate.
The parameters are chosen in a way that Civ with 5-7 cities can really compete against Civ with 15-20 cities. Also, AI usually builds 1 Campus per 2-3 cities, depending on the empire size. On a standard map there's reasonably place for ca. 70 cities, so if you don't go warmonger, you'll end up with 8-12 cities. 4-5 Campuses are more than enough to do all research required (it's been also adjusted). Don't forget that AI has the same penalties. The mod's goal is to prevent having 20-30 cities that produce absurd amounts of science and get you to Mars Project like in 1900s.
And believe me - different AIs were able to produce from 80 to 140 science in Information Era. It shows that different strategies, choices, UAs, etc. still can give you reasonable advantage against others. But the leader never had like 2x or 3x times more than the rest, which is possible in vanilla game. With the mod we're talking about 30-50% more.
Remember - this mod is NOT to make a game easier. It's to make it HARDER
This is just a game balancing mechanism.@Klazart Actually, the negative effects of having multiple entities to coordinate their actions are quite well known in RL. Scientific centers have to communicate, compare results, exchange data, etc. The more there are, the more time-consuming it is, the more bureaucracy it involves, etc. So, you have less time for making actual science, hence the decrease in output. And this effect IS present in RL, you simply don't see it clearly as there many centers usually working on multiple different things. In Civ however, you always discover ONE technology at a time, so you have to coordinate.
The parameters are chosen in a way that Civ with 5-7 cities can really compete against Civ with 15-20 cities. Also, AI usually builds 1 Campus per 2-3 cities, depending on the empire size. On a standard map there's reasonably place for ca. 70 cities, so if you don't go warmonger, you'll end up with 8-12 cities. 4-5 Campuses are more than enough to do all research required (it's been also adjusted). Don't forget that AI has the same penalties. The mod's goal is to prevent having 20-30 cities that produce absurd amounts of science and get you to Mars Project like in 1900s.
And believe me - different AIs were able to produce from 80 to 140 science in Information Era. It shows that different strategies, choices, UAs, etc. still can give you reasonable advantage against others. But the leader never had like 2x or 3x times more than the rest, which is possible in vanilla game. With the mod we're talking about 30-50% more.
Remember - this mod is NOT to make a game easier. It's to make it HARDER
Leyrann
Deity
There's a reason I don't play Civ5. Let's keep it at that.
I play Brazil, quick speed, tiny map - here's breakdown of my two biggest science cities - turn 105, AD 880:
I think Brazil is OP with science:
my total science is 79 per turn
sci. policy I have:
+50% campus district adj. bonus
Sao Paolo campus is now +10, plus holy site gives +4 (made by some Great Scientist)
Recife campus is now +9
plus I am suze of Hattusa
EDIT: I entered Industrial Era in 1040 (turn 113)
I think Brazil is OP with science:
my total science is 79 per turn
sci. policy I have:
+50% campus district adj. bonus
Sao Paolo campus is now +10, plus holy site gives +4 (made by some Great Scientist)
Recife campus is now +9
plus I am suze of Hattusa
EDIT: I entered Industrial Era in 1040 (turn 113)
Last edited:
1. The mod uses modifiers that decrease the output of individual buildings.They are additive, and ofc for positive values it is ok (so, 10 modifiers for 10% each will give 100%). For negative values... well, you'll end-up with 0 probably, don't know if the game will allow to go into negative values.
2. The modifiers are attached to all player's cities, so the reduction should affect captured cities (unless there's a bug).
3. In the current version the mod is designed for standard size games, definetely not for 100+ cities. It would have to be rescaled for bigger games, e.g. in your case probably penalties should be 3-5x times smaller thus allowing to build more campuses proportionally. However, I don't think that modifiers system support scaling by game size. I see only scaling by game speed and handicap.
BTW, what parameters (map, speed, size, ..) are you using to build such huge empires?
4. If you have 100+cities, how are the other civs doing? Because if you have 100+ cities by conquering all others, well that's the whole point of this mod - you still shoudn't be able to produce significantly more that the average civ in your game.
See previous post - the mod is designed to play well with standard size maps (where each civ have 8+ cities by default, and you may easily end-up with 20-30) . On tiny you will not experience it's effect as you will probably will not be tempted to build more than 2-3 campuses. For 2 Campuses (as in your example), the penalties are insignificant (6-8%).
Yes, the adjacency bonuses are unchanged. I left them because I see them as 'tactical' ones, i.e. the player need to plan for them, they differ from city to city. They depend on how you place districts and develop your city. Buildings are not 'tactical' - once you have a campus, you place them 'automatically' with no further thoughts given.
I have a quesition hoever, how did you end up having 2 universities with different output? I suppose you had a GS that boosts Univ output (Newton or Einstein) but still they should have the same output. Can you provide more details?
Arent11
King
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2016
- Messages
- 996
Seems nice, I especially like the reduction in pop science. Maybe pop science could be raised by policies/libraries/general education, but right now it seems too strong.
However I would (for reasons of realism/logic) prefer simply a limit to the number of cities you can control. Something like 'depending on your governmental/cultural advancement you can only hold together so and so many cities'. However, I think that would be too difficult to implement, like having cities that are over the limit ask for their independence/upheavals/barbarians spawn etc.
However I would (for reasons of realism/logic) prefer simply a limit to the number of cities you can control. Something like 'depending on your governmental/cultural advancement you can only hold together so and so many cities'. However, I think that would be too difficult to implement, like having cities that are over the limit ask for their independence/upheavals/barbarians spawn etc.
Fakoleon
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2016
- Messages
- 115
Thanks for your quick answer, as it is, building or capture cities will end up in the strange situation where all your building produce 0 science, which is not intended I guess, it should have a limit to this.
My 1st thought was to make it non linear, like the first 5 campus give -6-9% then the next just -3-6% and make it stop before 100% reduction?
the parameters of my games are in Giant(180x94) or Ludicrous(230x115) YnAEMP, so I get it by conquering the world ~~ but at some point I'm too big to be stopped so it kind of ruin the thing, that's why I'm looking for mods like your to reduce the advantage of wide play and make it harder, the Vox populi in Civ V did it well
Well, that was actually my original idea. Unfortunately not possible with current mechanics - modifiers are constant values. It's all-or-nothing approach, can't even relate them to the number of objects. E.g. I could make lower penalties (diminishing) as number of campuses increases.
Well, if you'll end-up e.g. with 16 Campi, then you will have -90% for Lib and -120% for Univ, so the game makes it -100% probably, just as I suspected.
Did you notice by chance how pillaged campus behaves? Does it decrease output or not?
Actually, that is not so difficult to implement, but I don't think it's the right approach. There never was a limitation in Civ for cities, neither in RL. The game should rather simulate negtive effects when having a big empire than to impose a limit on cities. For example, one of the effects could be something like an uprising depending on various criteria.
Arent11
King
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2016
- Messages
- 996
That's what I mean. Usually there was a kind of ~corruption, but I think it would be best that if you exceed a certain number (based on how advanced your government is), there is a certain chance that one of your smaller cities/farthest away from capital requests independence. Which you can either grant (getting a city state with 1 envoy) or deny (getting negative amenities). After some denied requests of course barbarians would spawn so you would be forced to grant at least some cities independence or to develop better governments.
However, such a complex game mechanic would be hard to implement.
Fakoleon
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2016
- Messages
- 115
I didn't use this mod yet as it doesn't suit my playstyle, but if there is a way to soften the malus curve I would gladly try it !
What do you mean by 'breaking'? What happens?
RSP changes science output from scientific buildings only - it doesn't affect cultural buildings. Plus the cost of techs and civics is decreased. AFAIK '8 Ages of Pace' increases the cost of techs and civics, so if you use both of them at the same time the effects may cancel themselves. I don't know exactly what paramaters you are using in 8 Ages, so cannot say exactly what will be result.
Pls turn off 8 Ages for a moment and then check the cost of techs and civics (with RSP only).
Infixo updated Real Science Pace with a new update entry:
Version 1.1 Tweak Civics
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Version 1.1 Tweak Civics
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