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Real Science Pace 1.2

Empire size impacts research speed.

  1. Cyborgnome

    Cyborgnome Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
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    After a lot of deliberation and troubles with the idea and testing with your mod i saw that your work doesn't do well in bigger or longer games, mostly because wans't made to do so.
    I considered the historical analise you made and have a second proposition considering your initial assumptions:

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    ORIGINAL GAME according to you
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/research-and-science-vs-historical-accuracy.609638/
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    Era..........................Time...............Turns
    Ancient.........4000BC – 1000BC......75
    Classical......1000BC – 500AD.......60
    Medieval.............500 – 1350...........60
    Renaissance...1350 – 1725...........60
    Industrial..........1725 – 1890...........60
    Modern.............1890 – 1945..........50
    Atomic..............1945 – 1995..........50
    Information.......1995 – 2030..........45
    Future..............2030 – 2050...........40
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    COMMENTS
    • Medieval era lasted till 1500 AD
      - (Sorry, but no. Itally was in Renaissance at 1300, the trecento, and it spread to Portugal first and the rest of europe slowly. Trust me, i'm not a native english speaker, but i'm a historian)
    • Industrial is usually associated with industrial revolution in England which started in 1750
      - (Yes, but they probably took notice of the early movements of the process, so they pass - barely. You're right in this one.)
    • Modern with start of WWI (1914)
      - (That one is VERY troublesome, the golden age of modern cultural inovation is actually before the war, but a few historians agree with you. I guess you're american? Your country could influence that a lot. History is written by historians, historians are people and people are biased. Yes, i know, i'm one.)
    • Information – various sources place it somewhere around 70’s
      - (Yes. But no one is sure of this one. Some idiots want to create a new age after 9/11 and others claim that internet spread is actually the reason for this new age)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And your changes:
    • Decreased science from population to 0,3.
    • Increased yields from science buildings:
      • Libraries +3, Universities +6 (Madrasa +8), Research Labs +9
    • Number of Campuses impacts science output from scientific buildings. Each one (except the first) decreases their output by:
      • Libraries 6%, Universities 8%, Research Labs 9%
    • Decreased bonuses from Policies and City States:
      • Rationalism gives +50% bonus instead of +100%
      • International Space Agency +5% bonus instead of +10%
      • Geneva suzerain bonus +10% instead of +15%
    • Tech costs are adjusted to accomodate the above changes.
    Unchanged: science from scientists, adjacency bonuses and standard bonuses from scientific city-states. These are all singular yields that that need to be activated based on player's strategy and tactics, so they are ok.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    My sugestions:
    • Decrease science from population to 0,3.
    • DECREASE yields from science buildings:
      • Campus gives +1 science with no adjacency bonus. Seowon gives +2
        Libraries +2, Universities +3 (Madrasa +4), Research Labs +4
    • Setting Eurekas to 35%, including for civics. (like the Real Tech Tree mod you made).
    • Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Sailing and Astrology are techs without Prerequisites. Now they make the new Pre-historic era, together with the civic Code of Laws. This could make things more realistic from an historical point of view, making the game take much, much longer in the earlier stages, but also making the player realise how fast technologies advance once you have a base.
    • Increase tech cost adjusted to era (see modificator below)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Era..........................Time...............Modificator for tech and civic cost
    Pre-history....6000BC – 2000BC........+300%
    Ancient.........2000BC – 509BC........+200%
    Classical......1000BC – 500AD.......+100%
    Medieval.............500 – 1350...........+75%
    Renaissance...1350 – 1725...........+25%
    Industrial..........1725 – 1890...........normal
    Modern.............1890 – 1945..........normal
    Atomic..............1945 – 1995..........normal
    Information.......1995 – 2030..........-25%
    Future..............2030 – 2050...........-50%
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *(509 is the overthrow of the roman monarchy.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Ok, my questions are:
    1) It can be done?
    2) It is easy?
    3) You think it will work?
    4) How is done? (never modded before)
    5) You think it's good this way? What changes would you make?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Please notice that i don't think that the mechanics from Civ5 where the Tech cost increased when new cities were founded should be brought back.
    Also, i think that building 20 campus is a choice. Just shouldn't be a so ridiculous strong one.
    I only think that the Campus are broken and the game should be slower at early ages and faster at the end.
    So i only changed the yields from science buildings and increase the tech costs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, on a side note:
    How about a free spy given when Political Philosophy, Mercenaries or Civil Service is researched?
    No, Sir Francis Walsingham, wasn't the first spy, regardless what wikipédia told you, only the first spy master on occident, Tokugawa also had spy masters at the same historical time. But is since Sun Tzu the orient knows and uses spies (as the occident knows then since Xerxes and the first wars against the greek). The news isn't the existence of spies.Is the existence of spy masters dedicated only to train and pay new spies, collecting and classifying information.
    So, spies for free at certain moments is cool and speeds the game.
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  2. Cyborgnome

    Cyborgnome Chieftain

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    I will try to follow this topic, but i don't visit the forum much.
     
  3. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  4. pramit

    pramit Chieftain

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    Slowerera.sql isn't working for me. I have tried disabling all my mods (having just this one enabled). Am I supposed to do something to enable those features?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  5. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  6. pramit

    pramit Chieftain

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    I have changed some of the values in the tech table (the temporary table) in Slowerera.sql inside the mod folder. Then I realizes those values weren't being applied. I disabled all other mods to see if any mod is overwriting this - didn't work.

    Database.log :
    Spoiler :

    [2184359.751] [Localization]: StartupErrorMessages.xml
    [2184359.751] [Localization]: Input XML does not contain database entry tags. GameData, GameInfo or Database
    [2184364.130] [Localization]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184364.130] [Localization]: Passed Validation.
    [2184364.140] [Configuration]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184364.140] [Configuration]: Passed Validation.
    [2184367.690] [FullTextSearch]: Initializing FullTextSearch
    [2184368.151] [Gameplay]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184368.164] [Gameplay]: Passed Validation.
    [2184369.188] [Configuration]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184369.188] [Configuration]: Passed Validation.
    [2184370.653] [HallofFame]: Database found. Checking versions...
    [2184370.656] [HallofFame]: Database is up-to-date!
    [2184385.995] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2184611.819] [Configuration]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184611.819] [Configuration]: Passed Validation.
    [2184620.008] [Gameplay] ERROR: NOT NULL constraint failed: Technologies.Cost
    [2184620.008] [Gameplay] ERROR: NOT NULL constraint failed: Technologies.Cost
    [2184621.207] [Gameplay] ERROR: UNIQUE constraint failed: RequirementArguments.RequirementId, RequirementArguments.Name
    [2184621.207] [Gameplay]: While executing - 'insert into RequirementArguments('RequirementId', 'Name', 'Value') values (?, ?, ?);'
    [2184621.208] [Gameplay]: In XMLSerializer while inserting row into table insert into RequirementArguments('RequirementId', 'Name', 'Value') with values (REQUIRES_CITY_HAS_PALACE, BuildingType, BUILDING_PALACE, ).
    [2184621.208] [Gameplay]: In XMLSerializer while updating table RequirementArguments from file LoyalCapitals_PalaceChanges.xml.
    [2184621.208] [Gameplay] ERROR: UNIQUE constraint failed: RequirementArguments.RequirementId, RequirementArguments.Name
    [2184621.336] [Gameplay]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2184621.363] [Gameplay]: Passed Validation.
    [2184649.620] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2184649.620] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2184649.980] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2184650.520] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2184651.811] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
    [2189837.557] [Configuration]: Validating Foreign Key Constraints...
    [2189837.558] [Configuration]: Passed Validation.
    [2189838.766] [FullTextSearch]: FTS - Creating Context
     
  7. pramit

    pramit Chieftain

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  8. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  9. pramit

    pramit Chieftain

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    I have attached it.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    The future era is missing from EraIncrease tables. You need to add it to both techs and civics. Example:
    Code:
               ('ERA_ATOMIC',     50),
               ('ERA_INFORMATION',60), -- must end with comma
               ('ERA_FUTURE', 50); -- add this line
    
     
  11. pramit

    pramit Chieftain

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    It works now. Thanks. You should update the mod with this too.
     
    Infixo likes this.
  12. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

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    Hello, I would like to make some suggestions about this mod.

    Currently this mod has the advantage of making some balance but has two drawbacks :
    - misrepresenting reality (creating campuses being negative at some point) as well as
    - encouraging expansionist/warmongering behaviour as there is no inflation prevention when it comes to population, 0.3 is 0.3 not 0 no matter what you do. So it's still better to have more cities, just not as good to build campuses on each one of them.
    This means that currently the "new campus" is the military and the settlers.


    I would suggest to make it so that only the total science output is reduced depending on how many cities the civ has.
    Figures would be something like 2.5% per city if got by colonization (settler) and 5% if got by war in a small sized map. (ideally, same thing for culture) (And those figures are for example, it will be better with a function imo)

    In practice (with those figures), an empire of 40 cities would have 0 science no matter how he was built and a 30 cities empire built through warmongering would have the same issue.
    This would give a quite accurate representation of reality (decay of big empires) and once you get a city it would always be worth it (science wise) to get a campus. Players would (however) have to think twice about whether they want to expand/warmonger as their cities might actually slow them, especially if they choose not to build a good enough infrastructure.

    It would also have the positive effect of giving even more value to pillage without conquest.

    Actual "in-game" effects would be that wide will be great for military/religion civs and tall will be great for science/cultural civs.

    I wonder what you think about that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  13. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  14. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

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    Not at all... :/ (Sadly, back then, I didnt have a reliable computer yet)

    Edit : Also I wanted to tell you : Thank you very much for your work !!!!! I do so enjoy using the mods you ve created and am very grateful !
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Now, lets see. Wasn´t it Rhyes that applied a +10% science cost for each city above 10? (Civ 4)

    I like the approach of this mod and wish that it could be changed to lower the marginal contribution of science instead of running into the red. Adding another campus should never be 0 or less in total effect.
     
    Qaz8area likes this.
  16. Paulo Santoro

    Paulo Santoro Chieftain

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    First try with this mod (and many other infixo mods, including Real Eurekas and Real Tech Tree).
    Now in turn 313/750. I'm still a lot ahead in science. I have 3 campi, 3 libraries, 3 universities (I only built 2, but won Hattusa, where there was a campus and I had Isaac Newton waiting...).
    Solimon (me) - 138 science per turn / 34 techs
    Gorgo - 68 / 29
    Vitoria - 45 / 24
    Mansa Musa - 43 / 22
    Catarina - 35 / 27
    Peter - 34 / 23
    Teddy - 28 / 22
    I'm in second place producing culture.
    I like the mods! Just wanted to comment this. :)
     

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