Realism Invictus

[Hian the Frog]

While on the topic of balance, I noticed someone in an earlier post complaining that the combat add system (specifically the hill attack bonus) was overpowered. I think perhaps all of them need to be looked at, as I am finding with the right combos (especially that lovely siege bonus) the ability to really overrun AI cities. Because, no doubt, the AI does not do a good job at using this advantage if feel that probably you could (just an idea by the way) either reduced the bonus curve ie 5-10-15 becomes 3-6-9, or better yet increase the bonus thresehold from 100-200: level 1, 200-300: level 2, >300: level 3 to 150-300 300-450, 450-650 repecectively. What this would do is make it damn hard to get the (substatial) tier three bonuses, and make the player flirt with the overcrowding promotion to get it (by the way the overcrowding promotion is so simply, yet so bloodly brilliant it a wonder no one has thought of it before)

Also, I think that the early siege's bombard ability is way overpowered, as that lovely 70% defensive bonus (walls+culture) you worked so hard to build up can be completely flatterned in a coupl of turns with 4-5 fairly cheap catapults. I feel that it should take a least around 5 turns to to this (addmititly, a play a 3400 hundred turn game, which prbably skewer my opinion somewhat in regard to this.

As Walter said balancing the AID system is (still) a difficult task.
This system was implemented to:
- avoid the "stack of doom" used by both the AI and warmonger players. Beeing "overcrowded" is simply stupid as the malus is too big.
- make war more realistic by using a mixed army, and not only the best unit of the era. With 15 allowed units in a stack, you can have at least two full AID bonus.

Where you may be right is about the siege's bombard bonus. We will have to look at this deeper.

 

[zoommooz]

Your points are quite valid, and they, among others are things we constantly tweak and try to find a decent balance for.

As far as aid bonuses are concerned, there is a psychological thing at work here. If you read the thread from the start, you have no doubt already run into complaints that 5% bonuses amount to almost nothing - which is not true, but you can see that all the values below that will be percieved as insignificant by the majority of players. Also, AI is not that terrible at stack composition itself, one can quite often see combined stacks that get good aid bonuses.

Nice to hear that the AI can use the aid bonus. I totally agree (because of the round based way civ implements combat) 5% is substatial as it can end up being quite a bit more then an increase of 5% at winning the combat. The reason I made the point was that I am seeing the real game results of these bonus, not their piecieved values (and IMHO they are incorrect, there is nothing insignificant about them, civ always has been a game of millimieters)

As Walter said balancing the AID system is (still) a difficult task.
This system was implemented to:
- avoid the "stack of doom" used by both the AI and warmonger players. Beeing "overcrowded" is simply stupid as the malus is too big.
- make war more realistic by using a mixed army, and not only the best unit of the era. With 15 allowed units in a stack, you can have at least two full AID bonus.

Where you may be right is about the siege's bombard bonus. We will have to look at this deeper.

Cannot agree with your assement of overcrowded, I love it, and it really does need to be harsh otherwise players and AI alike will just ignore it. In game terms, I have found that it really adds a tactical element to your planned combat with the "main" 15 unit stack moving in, additional units in support for when/if the main stack comes down from 15, and also, it hinders the "put a huge army behind wall" defense.

In addition you could always (just what you hard working modders want to hear-more work) have the overcrowing system work as a three tier system (like aid) so the negative effects are a little more gradual (still needs to be harsh though). Also, maybe city size could tie into this, with a larger city being able to support more defender without the stacking penalty (not even sure if this could be implemented)

 

[Ambidexter]

I'm getting annoyed at the Tech Tree. I desperately want Irrigation so I can build plantations. I've already got Water Pumps so why can't I get Irrigation? According to the Tech Tree it's the next tech.

 

[zoommooz]

I'm getting annoyed at the Tech Tree. I desperately want Irrigation so I can build plantations. I've already got Water Pumps so why can't I get Irrigation? According to the Tech Tree it's the next tech.

Irrigation is an 'and' tech, meanining you need water pump and calendar techs, and I am assuming you perhaps don't have calendar?

 

[2evster48]

My own system has 64-bit Win7, an old-ish Core I3, an Nvidia 200 series video card and 4 Gb RAM. I am able to finish games on huge maps (although they lag quite a lot towards the end, but not in "unplayable" area), and I get a serious slowdown on World Map around the year 1400 (I don't really play it a lot, but do many hands-off tests). So anything better than mine can be reasonably expected to perform better.

I have had real problems running this mod (and a couple of others) although my brand new rig is (I think) OK - Win 7 with an i5 4MB processor and a Radeon 5650 with 1MB video card I should (based on your own set up) be able to play this mod without any problems. I get loads of graphic glitches (resource icons disappearing, units looking like blocks of colour, and other stuff) and then always between about 500-1000bc the screen goes black and I ned to re-boot.
I know you're not a technical forum but any idea what my problem might be. This occurs on small maps with 3 civs as well as large maps.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I have had real problems running this mod (and a couple of others) although my brand new rig is (I think) OK - Win 7 with an i5 4MB processor and a Radeon 5650 with 1MB video card I should (based on your own set up) be able to play this mod without any problems. I get loads of graphic glitches (resource icons disappearing, units looking like blocks of colour, and other stuff) and then always between about 500-1000bc the screen goes black and I ned to re-boot.
I know you're not a technical forum but any idea what my problem might be. This occurs on small maps with 3 civs as well as large maps.

We have a troubleshooting checklist in the first post for a reason. I am at least 90% sure that your problem would be solved if you followed this line from the checklist:

[make sure that] You are not running "Low" graphics setting. Lowering resolution or turning off AA helps performance, but please keep your detail level on at least "Medium", as "Low" setting is known to cause all manner of video artifacts.

 

[sjodster]

Also, is the first 50%, and each there after 25% tech boast for opern borders with civ that already have the tech adjustable in the xml.

I'm not sure if we externalized the values to xml. I'm not at home right now and can't check. Might be worth checking in GlobalDefinesAlt - if it is somewhere, it'll be there.

Yep it's externalized. Both tech transfer commerce and open borders commerce pull their values from the GameInfo\CIV4CommerceInfo.xml file. Here are the tags:

<OpenBordersCommerceAttitudes>
	<Attitude>
		<AttitudeType>ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY</AttitudeType>
		<bAttitudeType>1</bAttitudeType>
	</Attitude>
	<Attitude>
		<AttitudeType>ATTITUDE_PLEASED</AttitudeType>
		<bAttitudeType>1</bAttitudeType>
	</Attitude>
</OpenBordersCommerceAttitudes>
<iBaseOpenBordersFreeCityCommerce>0</iBaseOpenBordersFreeCityCommerce>
<iBaseOpenBordersCommerceRateModifier>0</iBaseOpenBordersCommerceRateModifier>
<iAdditionalOpenBordersFreeCityCommerce>0</iAdditionalOpenBordersFreeCityCommerce>
<iAdditionalOpenBordersCommerceRateModifier>0</iAdditionalOpenBordersCommerceRateModifier>
<iBaseTechTransferFreeCityCommerce>0</iBaseTechTransferFreeCityCommerce>
<iBaseTechTransferCommerceRateModifier>50</iBaseTechTransferCommerceRateModifier>
<iAdditionalTechTransferFreeCityCommerce>0</iAdditionalTechTransferFreeCityCommerce>
<iAdditionalTechTransferCommerceRateModifier>25</iAdditionalTechTransferCommerceRateModifier>

OpenBordersCommerceAttitudes allow you to decide what attitude levels open borders commerce kicks in with. Recall that it kicks in for each open borders agreement of sufficient attitude level.

There are base values and additional values for both open borders commerce and tech transfer commerce. The base values are what you get for the first one and the additional values are how much more you get for each additional one.

-Josh

 

[Hian the Frog]

Cannot agree with your assement of overcrowded, I love it, and it really does need to be harsh otherwise players and AI alike will just ignore it. In game terms, I have found that it really adds a tactical element to your planned combat with the "main" 15 unit stack moving in, additional units in support for when/if the main stack comes down from 15, and also, it hinders the "put a huge army behind wall" defense.

I'm not an english language native. That's why i may i have been misunderstood.
I totally agree with you.
What i mean is: unless beeing stupid, a human player should avoid beeing "overcrowded". This AID is too harsh to be ignored. Avoid it as more as possible.

So, we agree.

In addition you could always (just what you hard working modders want to hear-more work) have the overcrowing system work as a three tier system (like aid) so the negative effects are a little more gradual (still needs to be harsh though). Also, maybe city size could tie into this, with a larger city being able to support more defender without the stacking penalty (not even sure if this could be implemented)

A very interesting idea. I will look at that.

 

[zoommooz]

Just read the manual and it states that a holy city can relocate in you move away from that religion. In my current game (started a new one on a small map-damn I already miss the world map-but not the two minute turn times) I found judaism, and rather then send my missionary to one of my cities I sent it to another civ, basically so that I could insure open borders. To my horror, three turn later the holy city relocated to them. Is this WAD, and if so what is the mechanism/how do I stop it behind it. (BTW I am American, other civ is Arabian, both of us have Judaism as state religion)

@Hian the Frog, thanks for the clear up!!

@Sjodster: Cheers for pointing that out, I would never have looked in there because most of my XML modding has been done with other mods that do not really orgainze their xml as neatly as these guy do. Incidently, I am try out 40% first trading partner, 20% thereafter to see how that goes.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

The HC should not relocate if you run that religion as your state one, and certainly not so quickly. This kind of behaviour has never happened to me before in my test runs, and it is certainly not normal.

 

[zoommooz]

The HC should not relocate if you run that religion as your state one, and certainly not so quickly. This kind of behaviour has never happened to me before in my test runs, and it is certainly not normal.

Hmm, maybe just a one off then. Will try a reload (new random sead enabled) as see what happens.

 

[Arnesson]

When it tried to load the map, the program crashed as follows:

Device driver in an infinite loop. Program ati2vag

STOP: 0x000000EA (0xFB8F04E0,0xFC458248,0xF226BCBC,0x00000001)

Updated the driver from the AMD site to 11.2 . Received 2 error messages to do with ms.net, which I ignored.

Googling that program found a site that purports to fix dll errors, which this does not appear to be.

I am running XP PRO (SP3) on an AMD 64X2 dual core 3800+ with the DDR2 RAM extended to 3 GB of the 4 installed on the motherboard. Video card is an ATI HD4600 with 512 MB DDR2 RAM and the current (11.2) Device driver.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

When it tried to load the map, the program crashed as follows:

Device driver in an infinite loop. Program ati2vag

STOP: 0x000000EA (0xFB8F04E0,0xFC458248,0xF226BCBC,0x00000001)

Updated the driver from the AMD site to 11.2 . Received 2 error messages to do with ms.net, which I ignored.

Googling that program found a site that purports to fix dll errors, which this does not appear to be.

I am running XP PRO (SP3) on an AMD 64X2 dual core 3800+ with the DDR2 RAM extended to 3 GB of the 4 installed on the motherboard. Video card is an ATI HD4600 with 512 MB DDR2 RAM and the current (11.2) Device driver.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Hm... That's a video error, not a typical memory error - but still, to be sure, is your OS 32 or 64 bit? Also, what graphical settings do you use? Also, are you talking about the World Map? If so, do random maps start normally?

 

[sjodster]

In addition you could always (just what you hard working modders want to hear-more work) have the overcrowing system work as a three tier system (like aid) so the negative effects are a little more gradual (still needs to be harsh though). Also, maybe city size could tie into this, with a larger city being able to support more defender without the stacking penalty (not even sure if this could be implemented)

A very interesting idea. I will look at that.

Moving to a tiered or gradual overcrowding system has been in the back of my mind for a long time actually . Having cities/terrain affect the limit is an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of though.

-Josh

 

[Vertico]

Hi RI Team.

Did you play maybe Pie's Ancient Europe mod?
There are few very interesting "realistic" features and ideas which could be interesting for you for further development of RI.

I like especially the whole slavery system there, terrain features like sand storms or fog, but also emigrations and rebellions (was funny to see my big invading army mutinied in the middle of enemy territory, when operation lasted too long) . Also interesting how fog of war has been resolved.

 

[Arnesson]

Hm... That's a video error, not a typical memory error - but still, to be sure, is your OS 32 or 64 bit? Also, what graphical settings do you use? Also, are you talking about the World Map? If so, do random maps start normally?

Sorry, should have mentioned that it is a 32-bit processor, so therefore a 32-bit OS. The standard Invictus maps work just fine so far, both in single player and multi-player mode. That was the first shot at loading the World Map. I concur that it is a video error, or perhaps a memory conflict that is causing the video error.

Playing a standard Invictus game: Small Pangea map, 4 Civs. 1.5 Speed. Turn 335 the game starte dto slow dramatically. At turn 380 the game crashed. Same driver program (ati2vag) but a different message (memory error).
Beginning to wonder if I may have a bad memory spot on one of my 2 GB DDR2 chips.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Hi RI Team.

Did you play maybe Pie's Ancient Europe mod?
There are few very interesting "realistic" features and ideas which could be interesting for you for further development of RI.

I like especially the whole slavery system there, terrain features like sand storms or fog, but also emigrations and rebellions (was funny to see my big invading army mutinied in the middle of enemy territory, when operation lasted too long) . Also interesting how fog of war has been resolved.

Speaking for myself, I didn't play it. Actually, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to other mods for Civ4; I only played a couple of the most well known.

Sorry, should have mentioned that it is a 32-bit processor, so therefore a 32-bit OS. The standard Invictus maps work just fine so far, both in single player and multi-player mode. That was the first shot at loading the World Map. I concur that it is a video error, or perhaps a memory conflict that is causing the video error.

Playing a standard Invictus game: Small Pangea map, 4 Civs. 1.5 Speed. Turn 335 the game starte dto slow dramatically. At turn 380 the game crashed. Same driver program (ati2vag) but a different message (memory error).
Beginning to wonder if I may have a bad memory spot on one of my 2 GB DDR2 chips.

Either that, or that is just a normal MAF just reported differently. Still, you should probably test your RAM.

 

[Keinpferd]

Originally Posted by Vertico
Hi RI Team.

Did you play maybe Pie's Ancient Europe mod?
There are few very interesting "realistic" features and ideas which could be interesting for you for further development of RI.

I like especially the whole slavery system there, terrain features like sand storms or fog, but also emigrations and rebellions (was funny to see my big invading army mutinied in the middle of enemy territory, when operation lasted too long) . Also interesting how fog of war has been resolved.

Speaking for myself, I didn't play it. Actually, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to other mods for Civ4; I only played a couple of the most well known.

I linked to Realism Invictus at least three times on the German PAE-forum, but the creator over there is also "pretty ignorant when it comes to other mods…" I strongly recommend both of you have a look at each other's special features, because a certain likemindedness, as Vertico suggested, can't be denied.

Apart from that, take it as another compliment that I find myself following a thread of a mod, that I can't actually play (Mac).

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I linked to Realism Invictus at least three times on the German PAE-forum, but the creator over there is also "pretty ignorant when it comes to other mods…" I strongly recommend both of you have a look at each other's special features, because a certain likemindedness, as Vertico suggested, can't be denied.

Apart from that, take it as another compliment that I find myself following a thread of a mod, that I can't actually play (Mac).

Thanks for such an endorsement! I will probably take a look at that mod sometime. While we are never short of our own ideas on how to improve the gameplay (we are much shorter on hands to implement those), some easy and elegant solutions others thought of might be present in others' mods.

 

[Vertico]

yep, you should definetly try a quick game.

I tried myself just few days ago and I was delighted with these few feautres, especially how the slavery system works. It's realistic, bit more complicated and what is most important... very fun

here is the link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352646