Realism Invictus

I've taken it upon myself to read this entire thread (skimming or skipping simple bug reports, of course, since many of these are simple corrections which are irrelevant to the current rendition) and am nearly halfway through now. This mod is of such high quality and breadth of scope that I think it warrants a lengthy investment of time to understand and become familiar with every feature.

Some more questions I've compiled as I've continued to play, if anyone knows and would like to help...
Spoiler :

1.) What are the criteria for generating partisans in a city against an invading army? In some games, when attacking a populous city and defeating all of its conventional units functioning as a garrison, the city spawns partisans which resist the invasion and fight as weaker, irregular units, which IIRC reduce the population of the city as they appear. I really like this feature and it makes excellent historical sense! However, in some instances, I expect it to occur when attacking a huge city and it does not. The city simply folds to my control and I'm given the option of razing or installing a governor. As the first instance I recall seeing this was in the early medieval era and in another case it did not occur in the industrial era, I don't think this is contingent on technology, but if not, could someone identify the factors at play here, so I can better gauge what's necessary when besieging a city?

2.) If not obsolete, does the Great Wall prevent other civs' slaves/serfs from entering your borders, or strictly "barbarians" themselves? AFAIK they're tagged the same way so I would think so, but I'm not 100% sure that this is already the case.

3.) It seems that the defender's advantage with target selection in combat has been removed. Is this true? In some cases, it appears that my strongest defender in a stack is not the fighting unit when facing enemy units in combat. Unfortunately I lack a specific example right now, but are there circumstances where this is generically correct?

4.) Is there a breakdown reference with regard to specific separatism mechanics? I'm aware of the era-specific effects detailed on the popups (although these don't seem to trigger automatically as you enter each new era, for some reason) but as far as which buildings reduce separatism and the specific mechanics of this is concerned, it's kind of a trial and error process on a case by case basis. For instance, are some units better at suppression than others, does it scale by strength, or are they all functionally equal in this regard? - I may have asked this one in the past and if so, I apologize.

5.) "We resent being ruled by a foreign culture" went from 2 to 4 in a conquered city of a civ that I eliminated completely, and seemed to scale with that city's population as it developed under my rule. What determines this mechanic? IIRC, in the base game it was nullified if the other civ was killed entirely, which is rather unrealistic and so if this was removed, makes sense, however, if it scales with cultural presence, it ought not to have increased, I would think.

6.) I miss NAPs and am considering playing with permanent alliances as a substitute... If so, at what tech would they become available? As is voiced by the poster quoted in question 9, diplomacy is the only area of this fantastic game experience that feels a little thin, especially with tech trading removed by default; though I recall reading that it is the most inflexible with regards to modabiltiy. I also realize and am perfectly content with the fact that that would be a major overhaul and nobody involved with the project is interested in something of that caliber.

7.) The last thing I want to do is appear to be complaining about the amazing art and attention to detail on so many units, buildings and wonders, but I got a hearty laugh out of Mt. Rushmore. Abraham Lincoln's face appears horribly disfigured! :) I don't know if you care to correct that or if it is even a matter of concern to anyone else, but compared to Roosevelt, Jefferson and Washington, he looks rather out of place.

8.) As I was reading through the thread, there was a post from about 8 years ago which resonated with my experience, and appeared not to be addressed. I'll quote it here, as it recounts my thoughts almost exactly. In a nutshell, it seems that there is often little incentive for conquest once you already have 6-10 cities or so, until the late renaissance or so, when modern institutions make more expansive empires more feasible. While this is an excellent curb against early blobs and models the administrative limitations of earlier eras of history, exceptional examples of sprawling empires did exist, and from a gameplay perspective, while I'm not the most warmongering of players, seems to blunt the strategic viability of this for those who are. While I love how much of a threat barbarians and your neighbors are, war feels primarily defensive and the lucrative prospect of conquering a juicy capitol even though you already have a sizeable empire should still be there. Is this anyone else's experience? I'm still rather new to this mod and perhaps simply haven't played enough to see circumstances where this simply is the case.

"I've played many games on the SVN with the newest changes and a couple after the release. I'd like to give you my opinion on the recent update and I hope you don't take this as being criticizing because that isn't my intention at all because this is by far the best mod for civ4 and is very enjoyable.

This mod is really exceeds everyone's expectations when it comes to historical accuracy, balance, civics, techs, and just the overall presentation (the civopedia, the unit and building flavors). A more advanced diplomacy system (which I mentioned earlier) would be a great addition and would really add an entirely new dimension to the mod. I also like how you have managed to prevent run away civs from growing way to large very early on. The only thing that bothers me about this is some of the unintended consequences of the method that was used.

Increasing the city maintenance for the number of cities is a bit of a double edged sword. While it prevents runaway civs it also greatly limits your options early game. Normally early game RI tends to be a bit stressful on higher difficulties. You really have to micromanage your cities unless you only want to have 3-4 cities until the mid-late Renaissance. Before the increases in city maintenance if you were able to take control of a few good luxury resources you could expand a little more because the gold you receive from that luxury would cover the vast majority of the maintenance for that extra city and you could grow all of your cities 1 extra population and build a slightly larger military. Now I am finding that the maintenance is so expensive that this is economically impossible to achieve, which historically doesn't make sense.

This makes early warfare very annoying and counter productive because there is no benefit, since you can't expand your boarders even if you managed to grab a good luxury resource. You just end up wasting productivity by building and losing units. Therefore, I end up building, building, building until the mid-late Renaissance when better economic options start becoming available. Don't get me wrong, I fundamentally agree with decision to increase city maintenance. It has brought A LOT more balance to the game, but as an unintended consequence has made the early game a bit boring, but I definitely prefer having it added. The only suggestion I can think of right now is a slight increase in revenue from luxury resources? Since these resources should be highly sought after early game and you should be able to reap the benefits of conquering such valuable territory.

I also agree with what Tachywaxon said about bombardment units in the Industrial era and I know you have been working on a solution for a long time. The Industrial era is that point in the game where it feels like a switch is flipped and the AI is now handicapped instead of the player. AI's inability to use cannons and artillery to their full advantage allows the player to conquer new territory and win wars very easily. This combined with new increases in economic potential is the point in the game where I always become a runaway civ. Anything else you could think of to make things a bit harder on the player late-game would also be useful.

In summary, I guess what I am suggesting is making things a little less strenuous eary-game if you are able to acquire the right resources, and some added difficulty for the player late game."

civman110, Dec 31, 2013
 
[QUOTE="AspiringScholar, post: 16219401, member: 241873"
Very long post here
[/QUOTE]

Answers, as far as I am able:
1) It's a random chance, which is higher the larger the population. You could get ten in a row, you could get none. There was an official answer on this topic in the last few weeks, if memory serves.
2) No, unfortunately.
3) I believe you're mistaken here. Certainly when I'm attacking it switches to the most advantageous defender (which is very aggravating with artillery, when the strongest defender might have already been bombarded past the limit).
4) I'm pretty sure that all units are equal - Warriors are the same as Knights. There's an interface that you can reach by clicking the fist icon at the top left that gives you a breakdown of current effects on your cities. I don't believe there's a complete specification in the manual or anything like that, though.
5) No clue, I haven't noticed that but I might have just been unobservant.
6) Permanent Alliances are pretty late, but I can't remember which tech enables them. Sometime in the Industrial Era, I think. Certainly after the game crashes unless you're using Process Lasso (I realise that may not be a useful metric).
7) This definitely sound like a question only Walter can respond to.
8) You're broadly correct, but I will wage total war to secure control of a very small continent. If you really have to do it the Confederation civic blunts the penalties this gives you. Sprawling empires were pretty rare before the classical era, and often collapsed after a single generation (although that still happens right up to the present day). Conquering a properly juicy city should still just about be worthwhile, especially if you're building for GP points. Of course, even if it harms you in the short-medium term, it still might be worthwhile to fudge over your neighbours.
9) I personally think that buffing early-game resources just makes it more of a lottery, which I don't think would be an improvement. Currently the team (singular) is actually removing the incidental buffs from resources (e.g. the Jeweller giving commerce buffs), which I personally think is removing minor flavour for no real benefit, but it's certainly going in a direction opposite to what you're quoting. Re. bombardment units, I don't let my rivals get that far, so I can't comment. I think Separatism would fulfil the request to make the late game harder, if the AI wasn't worse than the player at dealing with it. That's why it's disabled by default, of course. I play with it on because I like to see some sexy balkanisation, but in an ideal world I would have enough free time to rework the system myself (so that I would think it was perfect and everybody else would think it was stupid, as is the way of such things).
 
Well, this is a first. After updating to 3.57, I now have Black Tiles. Never happened to me before, even after installing a new Nvidia card.
Looking through the trouble shooting FAQs, I haven't been able to isolate the cause or fix the issue.
So, if someone would please be willing to toss out a top 5-10 "fix" list instead of me having to search through various threads ( or link the specific thread/post), this cranky old dragon would greatly appreciate it :D.
 
3.) It seems that the defender's advantage with target selection in combat has been removed. Is this true? In some cases, it appears that my strongest defender in a stack is not the fighting unit when facing enemy units in combat. Unfortunately I lack a specific example right now, but are there circumstances where this is generically correct?
When there are no strong defenders (I don't know exact percentages) vs a particular attacker the weakest unit defends instead.
 
Walter posted a link to the newest version the 15.th Dec 2021 (see page 406).

I have had no black tiles/texture since I installed my copy with that installer..
 
To me, it strongly devalues science and commerce overall, since hitting the research malus is inefficient. I just felt like it slowed the game down too much for my taste, and left me with too little to do each round, and made differences in research too small. I usually play on either x1,5 or x2.0 speed, maybe thats the reason? Other settings are large map, 12-15 civs, tech trading off of course.

While I get your line of thinking, I feel in Civ 4 (as in most 4X games), research is greatly overvalued, to the point almost everything else serves as an instrument of increasing it. So something that "devalues" research is a good thing in my book from design perspective. But I will actually check the x1.5 and x2.0 speeds; I haven't looked at them specifically and maybe these need additional balancing .

Thanks for the file, much appreciated. Where do I apply it - Beyond the Sword/Mods/Realism Invictus/Assets/Python?

Yes.

what happened to the big and small script? Its selectable via the randomscript, but why did it disappear?

A while ago I implemented several tweaks to how maps are generated. Unfortunately, they had to be applied to actual scripts - so while it is still completely possible to use most third-party scripts, they wouldn't benefit from those tweaks. Around that time I made it so that the mod only sees what's placed in its map(script) folders, not the game's. Big and Small was simply not among the scripts I processed that way. I'll add it in the next SVN with the relevant tweaks, but you can just use it without them if you want, by using the above method.

And why does Ahmad Shah Durrani found a city called Dortmund? Google must have laughed at me as I typed in "Dortmund Afghanistan" :lol:.

I'd love to tell you it's an easter egg or an obscure piece of historical trivia, but TBH I have no clue how that Dortmund got there. :lol: Will swap it out for a relevant name.

I've taken it upon myself to read this entire thread

That's quite an undertaking. I mean it's probably not at the War and Peace level yet, but over 400 pages...

1.) What are the criteria for generating partisans in a city against an invading army? In some games, when attacking a populous city and defeating all of its conventional units functioning as a garrison, the city spawns partisans which resist the invasion and fight as weaker, irregular units, which IIRC reduce the population of the city as they appear. I really like this feature and it makes excellent historical sense! However, in some instances, I expect it to occur when attacking a huge city and it does not. The city simply folds to my control and I'm given the option of razing or installing a governor. As the first instance I recall seeing this was in the early medieval era and in another case it did not occur in the industrial era, I don't think this is contingent on technology, but if not, could someone identify the factors at play here, so I can better gauge what's necessary when besieging a city?

That's the Influence Driven War component at work. Now that you're asking I feel it's woefully underdocumented. The core of the component revolves around the culture on the tile changing based on combat victories/losses, but an additional part is that an undefended city with lots of culture can draft its citizens to defend it (while losing population and culture). The formula for chance is 100% - (Culture level-1)*100%/(Culture level*Defender culture%). In practice it reliably fires for cities with ~100% defender culture, but as the defender losses mount and culture falls, the probability drops significantly (being 25%-40% depending on city level with 50% defender culture). It ensures that by the time attackers take cities, they already have a portion of their culture.

2.) If not obsolete, does the Great Wall prevent other civs' slaves/serfs from entering your borders, or strictly "barbarians" themselves? AFAIK they're tagged the same way so I would think so, but I'm not 100% sure that this is already the case.

It does, though it doesn't prevent them spawning inside it.

3.) It seems that the defender's advantage with target selection in combat has been removed. Is this true? In some cases, it appears that my strongest defender in a stack is not the fighting unit when facing enemy units in combat. Unfortunately I lack a specific example right now, but are there circumstances where this is generically correct?

What you're likely seeing is the work of toggleable "Protect Valuable Units" component. If other defenders have a high enough (>80% IIRC) chance to defend, they will go instead of the best defender if said best defender is led by a general, is a medic or simply has lots of XP, to save it from being frustratingly lost to some desparate 1% attacker.

4.) Is there a breakdown reference with regard to specific separatism mechanics? I'm aware of the era-specific effects detailed on the popups (although these don't seem to trigger automatically as you enter each new era, for some reason) but as far as which buildings reduce separatism and the specific mechanics of this is concerned, it's kind of a trial and error process on a case by case basis. For instance, are some units better at suppression than others, does it scale by strength, or are they all functionally equal in this regard? - I may have asked this one in the past and if so, I apologize.

Separatism has its own pedia section in the buildings part, where you can inspect all the buildings and civic effects. I will probably tweak the descriptions of the effects so they reflect their source civics better.

The era popups should trigger when a new era of sovereignty definitions starts - that does NOT directly correspond to the game era the player is in, but to the average game era of all players. It should trigger when that shift happens.

5.) "We resent being ruled by a foreign culture" went from 2 to 4 in a conquered city of a civ that I eliminated completely, and seemed to scale with that city's population as it developed under my rule. What determines this mechanic? IIRC, in the base game it was nullified if the other civ was killed entirely, which is rather unrealistic and so if this was removed, makes sense, however, if it scales with cultural presence, it ought not to have increased, I would think.

You are correct in that the culture wipeout on total conquest no longer happening is intentional - it was connected to Revolution component (as the completely conquered civs are able to return with its help) but I found it made sense when Revolutions are off too, as conquered people shouldn't automatically be easier to govern if they lost their own national representation. I actually don't recall if the doubling is intentional though or if it's a bug.

6.) I miss NAPs and am considering playing with permanent alliances as a substitute... If so, at what tech would they become available? As is voiced by the poster quoted in question 9, diplomacy is the only area of this fantastic game experience that feels a little thin, especially with tech trading removed by default; though I recall reading that it is the most inflexible with regards to modabiltiy. I also realize and am perfectly content with the fact that that would be a major overhaul and nobody involved with the project is interested in something of that caliber.

Diplomacy is mostly hardcoded and almost impossible to meaningfully mod. Permanant alliances are enable by Proletarian Dictatorship tech.

7.) The last thing I want to do is appear to be complaining about the amazing art and attention to detail on so many units, buildings and wonders, but I got a hearty laugh out of Mt. Rushmore. Abraham Lincoln's face appears horribly disfigured! :) I don't know if you care to correct that or if it is even a matter of concern to anyone else, but compared to Roosevelt, Jefferson and Washington, he looks rather out of place.

I'll take a look, though no promises here. That is a vanilla asset though, not currently modified in any way in RI. :lol:

8.) As I was reading through the thread, there was a post from about 8 years ago which resonated with my experience, and appeared not to be addressed. I'll quote it here, as it recounts my thoughts almost exactly. In a nutshell, it seems that there is often little incentive for conquest once you already have 6-10 cities or so, until the late renaissance or so, when modern institutions make more expansive empires more feasible. While this is an excellent curb against early blobs and models the administrative limitations of earlier eras of history, exceptional examples of sprawling empires did exist, and from a gameplay perspective, while I'm not the most warmongering of players, seems to blunt the strategic viability of this for those who are. While I love how much of a threat barbarians and your neighbors are, war feels primarily defensive and the lucrative prospect of conquering a juicy capitol even though you already have a sizeable empire should still be there. Is this anyone else's experience? I'm still rather new to this mod and perhaps simply haven't played enough to see circumstances where this simply is the case.

OK, this one is actually a much debated question, the answer to which (or rather lack thereof) lies not in the game design, but more in the game philosophy.

There is one crucial difference between a Civ 4 game as played by players (or almost any historical game, really), and real history. The course of the game is incremental, and is expected to be such by players. Players expect to get more as they progress, to be rewarded for their efforts. The key feature of all historical empires is that after their greatest extent, they all fell - either to be destroyed completely, or at least to become a fraction of their former selves. Can you imagine any player that would accept this as a natural course of their game? I cannot. But if we take away the ability of player's empire declining, the only other option is endless progress (=snowballing) - and that would render all further gameplay of an early "Roman empire" or "Han China" rather meaningless, as there is already nothing left to challenge them. I have yet to see a game that would handle this issue to any satisfactory extent (some that came closest were focused on particular regions and periods and handled that by introducing external threats, but since Civ 4 is meant to be global, no extrinsic threat is possible by design). So the only other option is limit the early ability to snowball, thus preserving at least some measure of challenge for the further parts of the game.

Well, this is a first. After updating to 3.57, I now have Black Tiles. Never happened to me before, even after installing a new Nvidia card.
Looking through the trouble shooting FAQs, I haven't been able to isolate the cause or fix the issue.
So, if someone would please be willing to toss out a top 5-10 "【25 cm】fix" list instead of me having to search through various threads ( or link the specific thread/post), this cranky old dragon would greatly appreciate it :D.

The latest build of installer, as pointed out by others, was supposed to fix that without any effort on your side. Are you using the 2021-12-15 installer?
 
That's quite an undertaking. I mean it's probably not at the War and Peace level yet, but over 400 pages...

Well, I really appreciate all of your team's work on this mod and want to get the most out of it. In lieu of a master changelog which details everything, that's the best way to go about it and I'm happy to do so. :)

In fact, many of the suggestions for features and discussions about mechanics have actually been quite interesting, and seeing what used to be problematic and was subsequently improved or fixed additionally provides a more nuanced sense of the balance and intended design before actually using these features myself.

That's the Influence Driven War component at work. Now that you're asking I feel it's woefully underdocumented. The core of the component revolves around the culture on the tile changing based on combat victories/losses, but an additional part is that an undefended city with lots of culture can draft its citizens to defend it (while losing population and culture). The formula for chance is 100% - (Culture level-1)*100%/(Culture level*Defender culture%). In practice it reliably fires for cities with ~100% defender culture, but as the defender losses mount and culture falls, the probability drops significantly (being 25%-40% depending on city level with 50% defender culture). It ensures that by the time attackers take cities, they already have a portion of their culture.

Interesting, thanks. Is there a pop minimum or any kind of technological prerequisite?

It does, though it doesn't prevent them spawning inside it.

I see, thanks. That makes good sense.

What you're likely seeing is the work of toggleable "Protect Valuable Units" component. If other defenders have a high enough (>80% IIRC) chance to defend, they will go instead of the best defender if said best defender is led by a general, is a medic or simply has lots of XP, to save it from being frustratingly lost to some desparate 1% attacker.

Ah, I was curious about what that meant in practical terms. When you say "chance to defend," are you referring to the combat odds of the would-be defender winning, or rather a separate chance that that unit would end up substituting for the medic/general-led one?

... Another quick question on combat which is most likely unchanged from vanilla: in the combat log, are odds displayed relative to you or the attacker, when you're checking on defenses of the previous turn and can't see the odds prior to combat as you do when attacking? For instance, it just says "Combat odds: XYZ%" and I'm assuming that's relative to you per its intended use as a reference, but it lacks the detailed breakdown of the UI when you're attacking and am not sure.

Separatism has its own pedia section in the buildings part, where you can inspect all the buildings and civic effects. I will probably tweak the descriptions of the effects so they reflect their source civics better.

It's possible I've missed something, but I saw that category and it seemed only to detail the "conciliation options" when separatism gets high enough to warrant that menu of options to quell it, not how much units or buildings reduce it IIRC. I'm sure it will be amply discussed when I get to the portion of the thread announcing that addition.

I generally know what helps and harms it, but, for instance, I thought having a spy in the city would reduce separatism but when placing one in or taking one out, it seemed to have no effect. Furthermore, I would think jails or courthouses explicitly reduce it, but it does not show this in their pedia entries, but there nevertheless is a modifier for "from buildings" on the bar in the city screen.

The era popups should trigger when a new era of sovereignty definitions starts - that does NOT directly correspond to the game era the player is in, but to the average game era of all players. It should trigger when that shift happens.

Ah, right, I remember this from the manual now.

You are correct in that the culture wipeout on total conquest no longer happening is intentional - it was connected to Revolution component (as the completely conquered civs are able to return with its help) but I found it made sense when Revolutions are off too, as conquered people shouldn't automatically be easier to govern if they lost their own national representation. I actually don't recall if the doubling is intentional though or if it's a bug.

Is it possible that it scales with the ratio of culture applied as a modifier to the amount of population?

In my example, I shared a medium sized continent with a peaceful and weak Indian neighbor playing as Armenia, with my awesome classical era units, so the circumstances called for attacking early and then filling out the continent myself. When I took the city it was still fairly small, but being a capitol site had lots of food and grew faster than my own culture could displace his.

Diplomacy is mostly hardcoded and almost impossible to meaningfully mod. Permanant alliances are enable by Proletarian Dictatorship tech.

Is there any kind of way to do an edit to make "permanent alliances" function as NAPs, or somehow to re-enable this feature?

I highly highly doubt it but thought it was worth an ask. :D

That's also kind of funny historically speaking, since most of the alliances associated with actual proletarian dictatorships were notoriously short-lived and fragile: Molotov-Ribbentrop, Pact of Steel, Sino-Soviet, etc. Ironically, the only modern example of a "permanent" alliance which comes to mind would be NATO, which was of course primarily made up of nations defending democratic institutions and explicitly formed against one such proletarian dictatorship.

I'll take a look, though no promises here. That is a vanilla asset though, not currently modified in any way in RI. :lol:

Oh, I remember this now... By the way, I love how you included and appropriately scaled sprites and icons from the Paradox games and other sources, but it never feels like a hotch podge or out of place at all. (In fact, the National Idea icons from EU3 are remarkably close in style to Civ4 icons, that kind of "vaguely-cartooned realism" style, even matching the same color palette.)

OK, this one is actually a much debated question, the answer to which (or rather lack thereof) lies not in the game design, but more in the game philosophy.

There is one crucial difference between a Civ 4 game as played by players (or almost any historical game, really), and real history. The course of the game is incremental, and is expected to be such by players. Players expect to get more as they progress, to be rewarded for their efforts. The key feature of all historical empires is that after their greatest extent, they all fell - either to be destroyed completely, or at least to become a fraction of their former selves. Can you imagine any player that would accept this as a natural course of their game? I cannot. But if we take away the ability of player's empire declining, the only other option is endless progress (=snowballing) - and that would render all further gameplay of an early "Roman empire" or "Han China" rather meaningless, as there is already nothing left to challenge them. I have yet to see a game that would handle this issue to any satisfactory extent (some that came closest were focused on particular regions and periods and handled that by introducing external threats, but since Civ 4 is meant to be global, no extrinsic threat is possible by design). So the only other option is limit the early ability to snowball, thus preserving at least some measure of challenge for the further parts of the game.

Yes, and in my experience with strategy games, probably Paradox Interactive's period-specific games like Victoria 2 and Crusader Kings came the closest to this (which I'm guessing are the ones you had in mind already). Civilization is quite a bit more player-interactive than them and ambitious in that it aims to model the full scope of history.

And echoing the poster I quoted, I think what this system achieves is fantastic and is certainly worthwhile as a tradeoff. "Tall" does not feel dominant over "wide" and both do feel like viable options, under the right circumstances, without being predicated by arbitrary and ridiculous mechanics like Civ 5's "global happiness" but rather, to my mind very thoughtful and pleasing models of real historical forces at each era. In fact, in my previous game, there were conspicuous "arcs" of power for leading nations, where they did actually decline into some kind of relative obscurity or mere secondary-power status, much like a European great power of yesteryear in today's world. Being accustomed to said "snowballing" I had concluding the nations at the top would stay there for the rest of the game and was shocked to see the ebbing and flowing!

--

As I was playing yesterday, a couple of questions came to mind about the industrial system. I love the "tiers of goods" approach and how that models the sorts of markets made available by industrialization, as well as "barriers to modernity" for backward countries which aren't strictly technological (even for early forms of industry, such as how masonry materials can be available for stone-poor countries with early coal mining, and gradual boons to local production with the upward-scaling utility of craftsmen), but am unsure on a couple of things which browsing through the 'pedia didn't answer.

First of all, the first rendition of the factory seems somewhat weak. In an already squalor-stricken renaissance world where population growth exceeds health by quite a bit, adding even more epidemic chance for merely one additional hammer per craftsman (on par with "clean" medieval alternatives) seems like a small incentive.

But also... what if anything replaced vanilla's "power" mechanic? I don't see in the 'pedia any equivalent to vanilla's plain factory which received the power bonus to production. Then again, I had been soaking up so much info playing for several hours that I might simply have missed something obvious right before my eyes.

By the way, aside from this question it just occurred to me this week how cool of a mechanic it is that craftsmen start out as weak alternatives to mines as production alternatives for poor production geography, and then labor increasingly becomes more viable, eventually to become the bedrock of industrial production, contingent upon population, food and the appropriate infrastructure, just like a real industrial economy! Very cool! :D
 
While I get your line of thinking, I feel in Civ 4 (as in most 4X games), research is greatly overvalued, to the point almost everything else serves as an instrument of increasing it. So something that "devalues" research is a good thing in my book from design perspective. But I will actually check the x1.5 and x2.0 speeds; I haven't looked at them specifically and maybe these need additional balancing .

A while ago I implemented several tweaks to how maps are generated. Unfortunately, they had to be applied to actual scripts - so while it is still completely possible to use most third-party scripts, they wouldn't benefit from those tweaks. Around that time I made it so that the mod only sees what's placed in its map(script) folders, not the game's. Big and Small was simply not among the scripts I processed that way. I'll add it in the next SVN with the relevant tweaks, but you can just use it without them if you want, by using the above method.
Just to compare I tried a game at the realistic speed setting - still the same thing (immortal difficulty now, and without a great start/early conquest). I do see what you mean with making research less crucial, but in my view its too drastic as it is - where I would have to go out of my way to avoid hitting the cap. And the medieval era becomes a real slog, with the major part of it with +100% research - there is not enough meaningful decisions to make each round like this. But, since it seems I am quite alone in encountering this issue (maybe I am just exceptionally skilled and can't avoid becoming technologically advanced :lol::lol:), I guess a toggle isn't needed, but the fix worked beautifully for me. Secondly, in regards to the maps - I tried using Medium&Small instead when Big&Small was unavailable, but the map was very "droopy", where almost all continent were vertical (some almost looking like long I's). If you start it up, I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Is this an unintended side effect of your changes - or was it always this way?
Finally, there are a number of leaders with preferred civics i consider ahistorical. Is changing these a possibility, and would you like me to mention which ones I dislike?
 
I'm playing games close to the edge that the game can handle (long games, fairly big maps, 12 to 18 civs).

One thing I have noticed is, that some nations nearly always get into lead if they are in the game (and under AI-control that is). Russia, Italy (Rome), Etiophia, India (Hindi first but Tamil second). One of the Southamerican nations is also a topdog..... always. Whereas England, France and Germany most often are found in the lower half.


And to Arythm1a: Yes, it easy to change preferred civics (and traits for that matter) in the .......\Assets\XML\Civilizations folder (files CIV4LeaderHeadInfos and CIV4TraitInfos). However some leaders might be difficult to find. Chinese Wu of Han is fx. named Wudi, Mao is "just" Chinese_Leader.
 
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Just to compare I tried a game at the realistic speed setting - still the same thing (immortal difficulty now, and without a great start/early conquest). I do see what you mean with making research less crucial, but in my view its too drastic as it is - where I would have to go out of my way to avoid hitting the cap. And the medieval era becomes a real slog, with the major part of it with +100% research
Wow! 100% research on immortal in the medieval era. I'm now playing on emperor and stay at 50% with several cities making wealth.

One thing I have noticed is, that some nations nearly always get into lead if they are in the game. Russia, Italy (Rome), Etiophia, India (Hindi first but Tamil second). One of the non-playable Southamerican nations is also a topdog..... always. Whereas England, France and Germany most often are found in the lower half
Uh... Earlygame food unique improvements?
 
There's a launcher that fixes the problem iirc, was posted by Walter Hawkwood himself, in this thread or another.
While I get your line of thinking, I feel in Civ 4 (as in most 4X games), research is greatly overvalued, to the point almost everything else serves as an instrument of increasing it. So something that "devalues" research is a good thing in my book from design perspective. But I will actually check the x1.5 and x2.0 speeds; I haven't looked at them specifically and maybe these need additional balancing .



Yes.



A while ago I implemented several tweaks to how maps are generated. Unfortunately, they had to be applied to actual scripts - so while it is still completely possible to use most third-party scripts, they wouldn't benefit from those tweaks. Around that time I made it so that the mod only sees what's placed in its map(script) folders, not the game's. Big and Small was simply not among the scripts I processed that way. I'll add it in the next SVN with the relevant tweaks, but you can just use it without them if you want, by using the above method.



I'd love to tell you it's an easter egg or an obscure piece of historical trivia, but TBH I have no clue how that Dortmund got there. :lol: Will swap it out for a relevant name.



That's quite an undertaking. I mean it's probably not at the War and Peace level yet, but over 400 pages...



That's the Influence Driven War component at work. Now that you're asking I feel it's woefully underdocumented. The core of the component revolves around the culture on the tile changing based on combat victories/losses, but an additional part is that an undefended city with lots of culture can draft its citizens to defend it (while losing population and culture). The formula for chance is 100% - (Culture level-1)*100%/(Culture level*Defender culture%). In practice it reliably fires for cities with ~100% defender culture, but as the defender losses mount and culture falls, the probability drops significantly (being 25%-40% depending on city level with 50% defender culture). It ensures that by the time attackers take cities, they already have a portion of their culture.



It does, though it doesn't prevent them spawning inside it.



What you're likely seeing is the work of toggleable "Protect Valuable Units" component. If other defenders have a high enough (>80% IIRC) chance to defend, they will go instead of the best defender if said best defender is led by a general, is a medic or simply has lots of XP, to save it from being frustratingly lost to some desparate 1% attacker.



Separatism has its own pedia section in the buildings part, where you can inspect all the buildings and civic effects. I will probably tweak the descriptions of the effects so they reflect their source civics better.

The era popups should trigger when a new era of sovereignty definitions starts - that does NOT directly correspond to the game era the player is in, but to the average game era of all players. It should trigger when that shift happens.



You are correct in that the culture wipeout on total conquest no longer happening is intentional - it was connected to Revolution component (as the completely conquered civs are able to return with its help) but I found it made sense when Revolutions are off too, as conquered people shouldn't automatically be easier to govern if they lost their own national representation. I actually don't recall if the doubling is intentional though or if it's a bug.



Diplomacy is mostly hardcoded and almost impossible to meaningfully mod. Permanant alliances are enable by Proletarian Dictatorship tech.



I'll take a look, though no promises here. That is a vanilla asset though, not currently modified in any way in RI. :lol:



OK, this one is actually a much debated question, the answer to which (or rather lack thereof) lies not in the game design, but more in the game philosophy.

There is one crucial difference between a Civ 4 game as played by players (or almost any historical game, really), and real history. The course of the game is incremental, and is expected to be such by players. Players expect to get more as they progress, to be rewarded for their efforts. The key feature of all historical empires is that after their greatest extent, they all fell - either to be destroyed completely, or at least to become a fraction of their former selves. Can you imagine any player that would accept this as a natural course of their game? I cannot. But if we take away the ability of player's empire declining, the only other option is endless progress (=snowballing) - and that would render all further gameplay of an early "Roman empire" or "Han China" rather meaningless, as there is already nothing left to challenge them. I have yet to see a game that would handle this issue to any satisfactory extent (some that came closest were focused on particular regions and periods and handled that by introducing external threats, but since Civ 4 is meant to be global, no extrinsic threat is possible by design). So the only other option is limit the early ability to snowball, thus preserving at least some measure of challenge for the further parts of the game.



The latest build of installer, as pointed out by others, was supposed to fix that without any effort on your side. Are you using the 2021-12-15 installer?

I am using the new installer.
@ WH; Yuppers
 
Wow! 100% research on immortal in the medieval era. I'm now playing on emperor and stay at 50% with several cities making wealth.
I meant that when i hit medieval, the techs are +100% more expensive due to being ahead of time. I am basically never above 50% research in my games, usually from 10-30 :)
 
Hello! I encounter a C++ runtime error when launching my attached file (1364KB size, large map, renaissance, 11 civs remaining). On MoDDB getting Visual C++ (VisualStudio?) is mentioned, which I have downloaded, but what exactly am I to do with it? Starting other games works fine, and earlier saves too, but I would lose a lot of progress that way. Anyone got a fix, or do I just need to replay it?
 

Attachments

Interesting, thanks. Is there a pop minimum or any kind of technological prerequisite?

I am actually not sure if the ability to draft via python, as in this case, has the same prerequisites as regular draft (can be seen here: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Draft_(Civ4)). I'd assume so, but I never put that to the test. No civic or tech prerequisite definitely.

Ah, I was curious about what that meant in practical terms. When you say "chance to defend," are you referring to the combat odds of the would-be defender winning, or rather a separate chance that that unit would end up substituting for the medic/general-led one?

Combat odds. If another unit has reasonable combat odds when defending, more valuable units will not be used (with this option on).

... Another quick question on combat which is most likely unchanged from vanilla: in the combat log, are odds displayed relative to you or the attacker, when you're checking on defenses of the previous turn and can't see the odds prior to combat as you do when attacking? For instance, it just says "Combat odds: XYZ%" and I'm assuming that's relative to you per its intended use as a reference, but it lacks the detailed breakdown of the UI when you're attacking and am not sure.

I am sorry, but I really don't understand the question. Can you illustrate with a screenshot probably?

It's possible I've missed something, but I saw that category and it seemed only to detail the "conciliation options" when separatism gets high enough to warrant that menu of options to quell it, not how much units or buildings reduce it IIRC. I'm sure it will be amply discussed when I get to the portion of the thread announcing that addition.

There are no buildings (aside from Palace and Forbidden Palace which are national wonders, and Versailles, which is a Great Wonder) that lower separatism directly. Jails (and other similar buildings) lower it by generating espionage - which lowers separatism.

I generally know what helps and harms it, but, for instance, I thought having a spy in the city would reduce separatism but when placing one in or taking one out, it seemed to have no effect. Furthermore, I would think jails or courthouses explicitly reduce it, but it does not show this in their pedia entries, but there nevertheless is a modifier for "from buildings" on the bar in the city screen.

"Generating espionage", not "having a spy as a unit". All combat units are equal when it comes to separatism reduction (and how much they reduce varies by era), and as mentioned above no regular building lowers separatism directly, aside from the above-mentioned and one scenario minor-specific building. This modifier is mostly used by effect "buildings".

Is it possible that it scales with the ratio of culture applied as a modifier to the amount of population?

Yep. The way you worded the initial question sounded as if it jumped immediately.

Is there any kind of way to do an edit to make "permanent alliances" function as NAPs, or somehow to re-enable this feature?

I highly highly doubt it but thought it was worth an ask. :D

You can reenable them in CIV4TechInfos.xml via <bDefensivePactTrading>0</bDefensivePactTrading> for any technology you'd like. Note also the BBAI_Game_Options_GlobalDefines.xml where there is an option to turn defensive pacts into full alliances, valid for offensive war declarations too.

Also please note that this was removed for a reason - turns out AI in RI is actually smarter than the real historical leaders, and after defensive pacts became available, there were no more wars in the world as no AI was keen on starting a World War. But if that's your cup of tea, you can reenable them.

That's also kind of funny historically speaking, since most of the alliances associated with actual proletarian dictatorships were notoriously short-lived and fragile: Molotov-Ribbentrop, Pact of Steel, Sino-Soviet, etc. Ironically, the only modern example of a "permanent" alliance which comes to mind would be NATO, which was of course primarily made up of nations defending democratic institutions and explicitly formed against one such proletarian dictatorship.

"Permanent alliance" in Civ4 terms, as I feel it, is more like the United Kingdom or the USSR - basically a single state composed of several civs.

Oh, I remember this now... By the way, I love how you included and appropriately scaled sprites and icons from the Paradox games and other sources, but it never feels like a hotch podge or out of place at all. (In fact, the National Idea icons from EU3 are remarkably close in style to Civ4 icons, that kind of "vaguely-cartooned realism" style, even matching the same color palette.)

Thanks, I try really hard to maintain stylistic consistency.

Yes, and in my experience with strategy games, probably Paradox Interactive's period-specific games like Victoria 2 and Crusader Kings came the closest to this (which I'm guessing are the ones you had in mind already).

While those make a valiant effort, the best attempt I've seen, interestingly enough, belongs to a Total War series game. If you play Attila: Total War as the Western Roman Empire (which I feel is the intended way for it to be played), you are dealing with a gradually worsening situation, where you'll actually be happy to just hold on to what you've had at the start.

And echoing the poster I quoted, I think what this system achieves is fantastic and is certainly worthwhile as a tradeoff. "Tall" does not feel dominant over "wide" and both do feel like viable options, under the right circumstances, without being predicated by arbitrary and ridiculous mechanics like Civ 5's "global happiness" but rather, to my mind very thoughtful and pleasing models of real historical forces at each era. In fact, in my previous game, there were conspicuous "arcs" of power for leading nations, where they did actually decline into some kind of relative obscurity or mere secondary-power status, much like a European great power of yesteryear in today's world. Being accustomed to said "snowballing" I had concluding the nations at the top would stay there for the rest of the game and was shocked to see the ebbing and flowing!

Anti-snowballing is definitely one of the design philosophy pillars of RI. But you've read the thread, and I assume you've seen that every anti-snowballing measure, when first introduced, garnered lots of negative player comments. A paradox (or rather a rather understandable feature) of player nature when it comes to 4X is that they quickly get bored from snowballing, but usually hate the measures in place to prevent that. :dunno:

First of all, the first rendition of the factory seems somewhat weak. In an already squalor-stricken renaissance world where population growth exceeds health by quite a bit, adding even more epidemic chance for merely one additional hammer per craftsman (on par with "clean" medieval alternatives) seems like a small incentive.

Stacking craftsman productivity bonuses is a very powerful thing - but yes, manufactory is supposed to have rather limited utility when compared to what comes in Industrial era.

But also... what if anything replaced vanilla's "power" mechanic? I don't see in the 'pedia any equivalent to vanilla's plain factory which received the power bonus to production. Then again, I had been soaking up so much info playing for several hours that I might simply have missed something obvious right before my eyes.

It's all still there. You still build power plants and produce power. Many actual effects are conveyed through the Electric Substation building though - including further enhancing craftsman productivity (was easier to implement from technical perspective this way).

By the way, aside from this question it just occurred to me this week how cool of a mechanic it is that craftsmen start out as weak alternatives to mines as production alternatives for poor production geography, and then labor increasingly becomes more viable, eventually to become the bedrock of industrial production, contingent upon population, food and the appropriate infrastructure, just like a real industrial economy! Very cool! :D

Thanks, it was one of the key ideas behind the industrial overhaul. Shifts of population and productivity from countryside to urban centres during industrialization was something I wanted to properly reflect in Civ 4 gameplay terms.

Just to compare I tried a game at the realistic speed setting - still the same thing (immortal difficulty now, and without a great start/early conquest). I do see what you mean with making research less crucial, but in my view its too drastic as it is - where I would have to go out of my way to avoid hitting the cap. And the medieval era becomes a real slog, with the major part of it with +100% research - there is not enough meaningful decisions to make each round like this. But, since it seems I am quite alone in encountering this issue (maybe I am just exceptionally skilled and can't avoid becoming technologically advanced :lol::lol:), I guess a toggle isn't needed, but the fix worked beautifully for me.

I always felt there was a great variety between different players when it comes to playstyle, not just skill-wise, but in broader approach and many different particular gameplay aspects as well. This makes a single "balance" that everyone is happy with rather impossible - so what I've been trying to do over the years is establish a balance that suits myself best and give people means to tweak it to their liking.

Secondly, in regards to the maps - I tried using Medium&Small instead when Big&Small was unavailable, but the map was very "droopy", where almost all continent were vertical (some almost looking like long I's). If you start it up, I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Is this an unintended side effect of your changes - or was it always this way?

I don't think the actual landmass generation was touched in any way. Anyway, updated Big&Small will be a part of the next SVN update.

Finally, there are a number of leaders with preferred civics i consider ahistorical. Is changing these a possibility, and would you like me to mention which ones I dislike?

You can share your thoughts, but current settings are a result of me trying to ensure a more or less even distribution of civics, so I'm well aware that in certain cases better ones are possible and I'm not sure if I'll be changing those if this means certain civics become disproportionately popular.

One thing I have noticed is, that some nations nearly always get into lead if they are in the game (and under AI-control that is). Russia, Italy (Rome), Etiophia, India (Hindi first but Tamil second). One of the Southamerican nations is also a topdog..... always. Whereas England, France and Germany most often are found in the lower half.

Never saw a dominant Rome myself, but generally speaking this is a rather complicated issue. As it stands right now (and I'd rather it wasn't so, but it is), lots of people play the World Maps predominantly or even exclusively, and the performance of civs on those should be balanced against that on random maps. This means, for instance, that England with its island start on the World Maps is inherently overpowered there, and as a result might be underwhelming on random maps. Conversely, for instance Rome, starting in an incredibly cramped position on the World Maps is probably a tad overpowered as a result on random maps as part of the World Maps balancing over time. France is a mystery to me actually - with a great unit set and a situational but good improvement, I have no idea why AI usually plays them so poorly.

Hello! I encounter a C++ runtime error when launching my attached file (1364KB size, large map, renaissance, 11 civs remaining). On MoDDB getting Visual C++ (VisualStudio?) is mentioned, which I have downloaded, but what exactly am I to do with it? Starting other games works fine, and earlier saves too, but I would lose a lot of progress that way. Anyone got a fix, or do I just need to replay it?

Pay the actual C++ runtime no heed. This is just a generic error message when a save catastrophically failed to load. Usually it is the result of either loading it with the wrong version of the mod (for instance, 3.5 save with 3.55) or a corrupted save. Look at its size and compare it to other saves you have for comparable times and map sizes - if it is radically different (like 2-3 times smaller), this likely means that the game failed to save properly and the save can't be recovered. Otherwise try thinking about whether it is a save game from a different version of RI (including a different revision for SVN versions). And yes, it crashes for me too.
 
I am using the new installer.
@ WH; Yuppers

Sorry, missed replying to this one in my other post. If you're using the latest installer, then it's probably down to your GPU - you're not trying to play on a laptop with Intel onboard GPU, are you? If it's a proper dedicated (and non-ancient) GPU, maybe try updating your video driver.
 
Another reason why I love to play this mod:

You really need both your experience and quite some luck too to win. The AI surly know how to fight, how to use a fleet and how to make oversea invasions.


If interessed, you can follow my games on the "CIV4 - General Discussions" fotum, where I maintain a thread with screenshots and comments.
 
Guess we have a bug here.


I wanted to upgrade as many Tanegashima Ashigaru (Arquebusier) on a tile to Bakumatsu Infantery (Line Infantery) as I could afford, so I choosed one, pressed <CTRL> to choose all the Ashigaru on that tile... just the usual way.

By an error I kept <CTRL> down instead of pressing the <ALT>.

Result: I upgraded all Tanegashima Ashigaru to Bakumatsu Infantery....... for only 10 gold per unit!!!!


Since Xmas is over and my birthday is a month ahead, I guess that must be a bug?!?!?!?



I decided to go 2 turns back to redo those upgrades - though it's rather temptating not to do so. See, I'm really on my heels right now ........:cry:


Edit:

I reloaded the whole game - the price is 10 gold even if you upgrade this type of units one-by-one. Well, I'm not going to dump this game after so many turns, so I have decided "just" upgrade 1 unit per turn. It's still unfair I know, but I don't know how to correct the file(s) involved.
 
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