Realism Invictus

I mean, I am not completely opposed to taking espionage out of the equation, but currently, there are two short-term ways for a player to interact with separatism - units and espionage. Leaving just one feels sad to me from the player agency perspective. One interesting thing we can try to overcome the excessive reliance on espionage (both specialists and espionage rate - we don't want AI sitting at 0% science either), is making AI treat espionage from specialists/commerce as temporary. So that, for instance, when a city having 4 informant specialists is currently "in the green", but would be "in the red" if they were unassigned, AI could still take all necessary steps to reduce separatism further until it was comfortable not running the specialists.
 
Very interesting comments Takofloppa and Walter. Now I realize that from modding perspective the revolutions are a much deeper component than those last lines in GlobalDefines file 😁
I am very glad that this issue has bothered not only me, and I hope that my observations were also useful 🙂
I started a new game with latest SVN, the game feels even more realistic with changes to TechTranfer. And I am also very satisfied with how my modifications to revolutions work with this change. Today I started a new game, played it till 200 AD, and already witnessed a number of meaningful revolts. In the most interesting case, Joao of Portugal splitted from Alaric of Spain (let be honest, not the most competitive leader in RI), conquered much of his land and succeeded to become one of the leading civs which built Great Wall and founded two religions. He even managed to conquer one of my cities for while before it revolted back to me 😉
There are few other splits too - these splits mainly occured in remote buffer zones between two civs, in areas where culture is mixed (cultures from both civs are present). This is also cool even if these civs struggle to expand. These civs feel like buffer states between superpowers (better than in default settings when you could often lose a city in the hearth of your empire for no important reason).
And lastly, there are decent amount of revolts when a civ tries to expand in remote/wild area where there is a big presence of barbarian culture. Cities may split into barbarians few turns after being found. But this also feels cool - for example I have no access to ocean and the only unclaimed land that connects me to ocean is full of jungles and was home to barbarian cities (now razed) until recently. I took the matter lightly (sent only one unit with settler) and lost my newly founded city to a barbarian split 🙂 not all empty territories are so problematic of course, but having at least some remote/wild territories creating such difficulties feels very interesting and realistic.
 
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I don't know why Portugal is always this crazy effective; it's one of those civs that don't have much going for it on paper, yet when they are in a game, more often than not they're wildly successful.
 
I don't know why Portugal is always this crazy effective; it's one of those civs that don't have much going for it on paper, yet when they are in a game, more often than not they're wildly successful.

And then you have ones like France, which nearly across the board is blessed abundantly but I have yet to ever see prominently successful... :lol:
 
And then you have ones like France, which nearly across the board is blessed abundantly but I have yet to ever see prominently successful... :lol:
Oh indeed, France is the bane of my existence - I have zero idea why they never do well...
Maybe because of Joao’s primary focus on science.
Perhaps, combined with a tendency to not go crazy with expansion.
 
OK, that was a simple enough change given all the framework for it was already there - now AI will treat espionage from %rate and specialists the same way as it treats temporary separatism from building effects: as something that will go away eventually, and seek a more "permanent" solution in culture and/or units even if current espionage specialist setup adequately prevents revolts. Or at least it should. Feel free to test!
 
OK, that was a simple enough change given all the framework for it was already there - now AI will treat espionage from %rate and specialists the same way as it treats temporary separatism from building effects: as something that will go away eventually, and seek a more "permanent" solution in culture and/or units even if current espionage specialist setup adequately prevents revolts. Or at least it should. Feel free to test!
Awesome!
Does it mean (at least in theory) that AIs will become smarter in fighting separatism? May I reduce back, for example, effect from each stationed unit while keeping separatism from foreign culture increased, and expect that AI will still manage it?
 
Well, it's up to you to test and see that. I hope long-term it'll be smarter as it should not be overreliant on espionage (that can suddenly go away) and correctly use it just as a band-aid for immediate woes.
 
A question about how culture works : on the screenshot below, you can see a small town I settled near the West African border.
It's on the Huge World Map, so they are supposed to have almost nothing in term of culture, and the fact that their cities extended to the huge cross and not the starting square must probably be a handmade change as they were already at that size at the beginning of the game.

The African never had their border extending on anyone of the tiles that is currently occupied by my town.

Still, when I settled, the town "culture" was instantly switch at something like 99% African and almost nothing Egyptian.

I've always believed that Culture doesn't go further than border. Am I mistaking here ?
Or is it due to the nature of the World Map, and there is a residual African Culture around their towns that you just can't "see" (no green border) but can still impact nearby cities.

Spoiler :


1747290972034.jpeg


 
That's K-Mod's feature that has been there for decades by now; the actual culture does indeed reach a couple of tiles beyond the actual city radius, which means there is more "cohesion" as cities from further away can contribute to cultural push, not just the immediately adjacent ones. You can read here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/k-mod-far-beyond-the-sword.16331/
 
Thanks you Walter, I was aware of the "culture push further" but what was bugging me was that those cities don't produced any culture. At least it doesn't give the impression, given that their borders never changed for almost 5k years.

I may have to push culture-generating building a bit higher on my "to build priority list" on that specific map. So many civs, and even more with Revolution on, the borders are quite a mess :lol:

Another thing about Revolution : I spoke with another Egyptian Huge World Map player a few weeks ago, and his save reached around 4Mb (and started crashing between turns) at around 1300-1400, I think.
I encountered no crash so far, but my own save is already at 3,8Mb so I must be close to the end, and I'm only at 900 AD, so many many turns before him !

My own theory is that the big difference is due to having Revolution on, and that the handful of Civ that were added are the reason why my own save is at the same size as his 400-500 years earlier.
So far I've encountered half a dozen, and received alert for at least as much spawning outside the lands I explored.

Am I in the right there ? Would having Revolution turned off makes the save less heavy, allowing me to play further into a new game ?
Or is it something else entirely ?
 
Thanks you Walter, I was aware of the "culture push further" but what was bugging me was that those cities don't produced any culture. At least it doesn't give the impression, given that their borders never changed for almost 5k years.

I may have to push culture-generating building a bit higher on my "to build priority list" on that specific map. So many civs, and even more with Revolution on, the borders are quite a mess :lol:
From what I understand (and yes, it's that complicated in vanilla too), there is culture and there is culture. Even if a city doesn't generate any :culture: points for popping borders, any city passively produces "tile culture" which influences the amounts of different cultures each tile has, which determines, in turn, the cultural composition of cities. The :culture: points add to that value, but they are not equal nor are they the same thing from the game engine perspective. If you want the gory details, this thread has them: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/plot-culture-mechanics.633767/
Another thing about Revolution : I spoke with another Egyptian Huge World Map player a few weeks ago, and his save reached around 4Mb (and started crashing between turns) at around 1300-1400, I think.
I encountered no crash so far, but my own save is already at 3,8Mb so I must be close to the end, and I'm only at 900 AD, so many many turns before him !

My own theory is that the big difference is due to having Revolution on, and that the handful of Civ that were added are the reason why my own save is at the same size as his 400-500 years earlier.
So far I've encountered half a dozen, and received alert for at least as much spawning outside the lands I explored.

Am I in the right there ? Would having Revolution turned off makes the save less heavy, allowing me to play further into a new game ?
Or is it something else entirely ?
Let me preface this with the fact that I in no way endorse running World Maps with revolutions on, simply because the number of free civil slots is minuscule, and after those run out, you only get barbarians.

Secondly, if you're playing SVN, you're more or less crash-proof, regardless of how big the save gets, due to unpacked assets.

Thirdly, on the save size difference, I have no idea what exactly influences it, but I suspect the answer is "everything" - more units, more civs, more buildings etc.
 
Even if a city doesn't generate any :culture: points for popping borders, any city passively produces "tile culture" which influences the amounts of different cultures each tile has, which determines, in turn, the cultural composition of cities. The :culture: points add to that value, but they are not equal nor are they the same thing from the game engine perspective.

Interesting. Seems like there is a lot more depth that I previously believed.
And I'm pretty sure Trade Route are also conducting :culture: in some way, as I spotted Japanese Cultural influence on a few tiles in Spain (And I don't have any other explanation except for Trade Route as to how this could have happened).

If you want the gory details, this thread has them:

Please, have mercy ! This game is already hard enough for my brain as it is :lol:

Let me preface this with the fact that I in no way endorse running World Maps with revolutions on, simply because the number of free civil slots is minuscule, and after those run out, you only get barbarians.

I understand, and do think too, that "real" Civ are more interesting as Revolutions byproduct than "just" a Barbarian State. But still, if the choice is having the Revolution with subpar barbarian, or no Revolution at all, I still believe the Rev On makes for more interesting game.

As an exemple : in my current game, France wiped out Spain. With Rev Off, that would have been it.
But, having Rev On, a few decades later, France was involved in a gruesome war with another Civ, leading to instability on it's recently conquered spanish cities. They revolted, and Carlos V resurrected from the dead.
Can't really say that he will be a main opponent of that game, but still, seeing him back was a funny little thing that I enjoyed.

But I admit that the unending list of Civ on that map is sometime troublesome.

Secondly, if you're playing SVN, you're more or less crash-proof, regardless of how big the save gets, due to unpacked assets.

... For real ?
All those years, I believed that the Huge World Map was impossible to finish, and that it will always crash before Industrial at most.
And now you are telling me that, if I find the strengh in me to continue despite how long each turn is, I may be able to see a victory screen ?

... Man, I feel like a grumpy old man that just learned that Santa is, in fact, real, and coming by for a coffee this afternoon.
 
And I'm pretty sure Trade Route are also conducting :culture: in some way, as I spotted Japanese Cultural influence on a few tiles in Spain (And I don't have any other explanation except for Trade Route as to how this could have happened).
IDW?
... For real ?
All those years, I believed that the Huge World Map was impossible to finish, and that it will always crash before Industrial at most.
And now you are telling me that, if I find the strengh in me to continue despite how long each turn is, I may be able to see a victory screen ?

... Man, I feel like a grumpy old man that just learned that Santa is, in fact, real, and coming by for a coffee this afternoon.
Yeah. You can see more details in this thread, but the gist of it is: having upacked assets drastically reduces the memory footprint; it may still end up crashing at some point, but I am not even sure that point is reachable. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/memory-allocation-crashes.694013/
 

Saw that term a few time but I can't remember what it means :shifty:

Yeah. You can see more details in this thread, but the gist of it is: having upacked assets drastically reduces the memory footprint; it may still end up crashing at some point, but I am not even sure that point is reachable.

That's quite the pleasant surprise. And a very good news, for me.
... Not so much for Elissa, who is currently seeing dozens of egyptians soldiers piling against her border.
If this game isn't ending in a crash in a few turns, that means I'm going to need that Iron :p
 
In my current game I've built an industrial plantation on Hemp, but I haven't yet researched Land Tenure, and the game thinks that's not enough to get the Hemp. While Irrigation Systems unlocked the Industrial Plantation, looks like it's still waiting on Land Tenure to make it actually do anything. See pic, and how it says the resource requires an Industrial Plantation and that an Industrial Plantation is present.

Spoiler :
Screenshot 2025-05-15 at 6.56.35 PM.png
 
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