Realism Invictus

[Hafenguy]

I have Explored global trade. Why cant I build privateers?

 

[Oresme]

I think you can build a Levee even if the river isn't right near the city. Having it in the "big cross" is enough (if my memory is good, and it has been years since I last saw that part so I may be mistaking).
The fresh water component is a way to gives the health bonus to cities that are close to rivers without having it directly on an adjacent tiles.

Was assuming that was the intent but didn’t show up in build list of city meeting that description.

 

[le_harv]

Was assuming that was the intent but didn’t show up in build list of city meeting that description.

Also, if your city is on a hill, being a source of fresh water means that tiles next to it can be irrigated. Especially useful if you have a lot of flat land next to the city with no way of being irrigated until you build a levee to ‘transport’ the water over the hills.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

That sounds really exciting! Aristocracy is one of the civics I never use, so I'm eager to see if this changes my habits. Though it might be a while before I update SVN. On revision 5487 I can exit a game to the main menu without a crash, but on more recent ones it crashes consistently, so I'm sticking to 5487 until I take the time to investigate.

Doesn't sound like anything resulting from any changes on my side TBH - or if it does it's linked to something apparently unrelated.

Light Infantry feel pretty weak. It's great that they have 2 movement, but lacking meaningful attack bonuses, and being weaker than Line Infantry and Cuirassiers, pretty much delegates them to being moderately anti-irregular units, but without the means to actually target irregulars. While they can get to places fast, they aren't equipped to accomplish much once getting there. They can be quick to respond to an army showing up at a city, but have a significant malus to fighting in cities (-40%. Even cuirassiers only get -25% in cities). While the Skirmisher exists at a time when their terrain bonuses define warfare, battles in the time of light infantry are largely in open fields. Not many forests remaining at this point. They're like inept cuirassiers, and the only incentive I have to build them is to circumvent my increasing cuirassier build times.

Good. I wanted them to be a strictly auxiliary unit. Napoleonic era is really the age of line infantry + artillery historically. Previously, AI tended to overbuild light infantry and fielded stacks that would have 50% light infantry or so, felt very jarring.

Is it intentional design that while Assault Aid was a prominent aid bonus in ancient/classical/medeival eras, it's largely absent later on in the game? The only units providing it in Rennaisance and later are city assault units, which I don't want to include in stacks meant to combat outside of cities. Ironically, the units that I do want to put in stacks fighting outside of cities, Irregulars, Line Infantry, etc, have aid bonuses for cities and fortified warfare (defensive bonuses, and first strikes to benefit from frotifications). I wonder if this is in part why I feel that Light Infantry are weak--skirmishers regularly got +12% strength from melee units in their stacks that Light Infantry aren't getting. Though checking things now, as I'm writing this, I do realize that Grenadiers are more general purpose than Axemen were in ancient era, so I think this point falls more towards me learning how to play the era and utilize my units properly.

I am open to reviewing the aid in general. Fits quite well into the overall philosophy of revisiting the older RI elements.

The cannon line of units feels pretty underwhelming. Siege units are useful in the early game to bring down city the heavy city defenses, but with gunpowder units those city defenses are less present. It's still good to have bombards/cannons/etc to bring down the remaining culture defenses, but their field utility is very limited when only hitting single targets. The AI often has 50+ units in a stack (or 200 in my case), so dealing 15% damage to one of those units is not worth the supply/logistics penalties. Especially when the aid bonus they give is narrow in application. With first strikes cancelling each other out, having recon aid, siege aid, and ranged aid all provide first strikes feels moot, like there isn't actually any aid being given at all. At least assault aid lets the bigger unit hit harder. It's better to have cavalry, as their aid provides a direct strength bonus and their collateral damage hits 2 units, not one. And they typically have a comparitive strength that allows them to survive, especially with pikeman losing their cavalry bonus when upgraded. It would be nice if the Barrage promotions allowed you to hit more targets instead of deal a bit of extra damage to the single target.

Why not a new promo line instead? And I am actually quite open to boosting the number of targets on the base units too. It is a decent additional way to introduce asymmetry into combat.

I'm still on 5477, due to my in-progress game, so perhaps it's already resolved on the newer revision.

Oh, it actually has then! Rev 5483. Boy, was rev 5477 long ago... It was actually before the latest installer version!

I'll very briefly note that [Y]'s idea about decoupling the explorative and conventional military capabilities of the Explorer feels warranted and like a satisfying solution, if my opinion is worth anything. Giving them Hit and Run so as to be able to move quickly in rough terrain (often prominent in a New World) would make them feel special and valuable in the role of exploring, where (without routes) you would otherwise need to pay a high opportunity cost for this in the form of Guerilla or Woodsmen II and above units which have much greater military viability. From a realism standpoint, their being small parties with much more manageable logistical considerations makes plenty of sense to explain the swifter movement, even if footbound.

The problem with giving promos to units is that it indirectly makes units that upgrade TO that class worse, as they don't get those. Therefore, in RI it's mostly reserved for units that nothing upgrades to (like NUs).

Why does Levee provide a source of fresh water?Cities on rivers already do.

See below.

I have Explored global trade. Why cant I build privateers?

Were you late to the party? Privateers now have a global limit so if somebody else already built all (either several somebodies, or somebody kept building and losing them actively), you won't be able to.

Also, if your city is on a hill, being a source of fresh water means that tiles next to it can be irrigated. Especially useful if you have a lot of flat land next to the city with no way of being irrigated until you build a levee to ‘transport’ the water over the hills.

This. This is absolutely the correct answer. A bit niche use case, but it's not the main effect of the levee anyway.

 

[Ahnarras]

Oh, it actually has then! Rev 5483. Boy, was rev 5477 long ago... It was actually before the latest installer version!

4.0 will be out before I manage to finish that game

 

[[Y]]

Doesn't sound like anything resulting from any changes on my side TBH - or if it does it's linked to something apparently unrelated.

It's a weird one. I want to test it at some point and see if I can identify which changed file(s) correlate to the crashing.

Good. I wanted them to be a strictly auxiliary unit. Napoleonic era is really the age of line infantry + artillery historically. Previously, AI tended to overbuild light infantry and fielded stacks that would have 50% light infantry or so, felt very jarring.

Things are looking good then. AI builds some of them but they aren't the basis of stacks, in the way recon units once were.

I am open to reviewing the aid in general. Fits quite well into the overall philosophy of revisiting the older RI elements.

Ooh, that opens up a lot of possibilities.

Why not a new promo line instead?

Because my strategy these days is to sugar up my pitches with the version that requires the least amount of effort on your part to implement.

And I am actually quite open to boosting the number of targets on the base units too. It is a decent additional way to introduce asymmetry into combat.

Absolutely. I feel like that's how they used to work way back when, but maybe I'm misremembering.

The problem with giving promos to units is that it indirectly makes units that upgrade TO that class worse, as they don't get those. Therefore, in RI it's mostly reserved for units that nothing upgrades to (like NUs).

Yeah, I had that realization a few minutes after I made my post. What if they had bIgnoreTerrainCost toggled on, though? That way it's also unique to explorers, and doesn't pass on to Light Infantry later in the age.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

4.0 will be out before I manage to finish that game

Well, next release version will probably be 4.0 - it's the 20th anniversary this year, and I was thinking about a bit of rebranding in conjunction with the anniversary edition. I wanted to ditch the "Realism" in the name for almost as long as it has been there, both for giving people skewed expectations of what the mod is really about, and due to the awful Latin/English mix in the name. I'm thinking of a fully Latin name for the anniversary edition instead; my current lead candidate is "Invictus: Iter Æternum" (with the added bonus of a cool ligature).

Ooh, that opens up a lot of possibilities.

I am torn between encouraging you and stopping you right there for the fear of drowning in suggestions.

Yeah, I had that realization a few minutes after I made my post. What if they had bIgnoreTerrainCost toggled on, though? That way it's also unique to explorers, and doesn't pass on to Light Infantry later in the age.

Wouldn't that feel awful to lose when upgrading to light infantry then? It's probably best to just enable it for all units further down the line as well. Would make lots of sense on later mountain infantries too.

 

[[Y]]

Well, next release version will probably be 4.0 - it's the 20th anniversary this year, and I was thinking about a bit of rebranding in conjunction with the anniversary edition. I wanted to ditch the "Realism" in the name for almost as long as it has been there, both for giving people skewed expectations of what the mod is really about, and due to the awful Latin/English mix in the name. I'm thinking of a fully Latin name for the anniversary edition instead; my current lead candidate is "Invictus: Iter Æternum" (with the added bonus of a cool ligature).

Invictus: Iter Æternum sounds good, but the ligature would make it harder to find the game. A bit harder to google for (unless someone has something to copy/paste), and if I'm making a verbal recommendation to someone, I'd have to tell them "It's called Invictus: Iter Æternum. The last word has the combined A and E character. Yeah, like the one in Æther. No I don't know the keyboard shortcut for that."

I am torn between encouraging you and stopping you right there for the fear of drowning in suggestions.

Like the ones I had typed up for the last post and then decided I was getting ahead of myself?

Wouldn't that feel awful to lose when upgrading to light infantry then? It's probably best to just enable it for all units further down the line as well. Would make lots of sense on later mountain infantries too.

Yeah, making it a mainstay is sensible. Combined with the idea of revisiting aid, they could be made to have even less , but provide more powerful aid bonuses, emphasizing their role as a support unit acting on the sidelines. It would be even more interesting if the various recon promotions could be passed on to the units they're aiding in some form.

 

[RezerCuid]

Ooh, that opens up a lot of possibilities

Me too)

By the way, when a player unlocks the Axemen, they are the most powerful units in the game. They can kill (ancient) archers in the city with a chance of more than 90%. I would slightly reduce their bonus when attacking a city to +10-15% for their different variations. It's all about finding the right balance.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Invictus: Iter Æternum sounds good, but the ligature would make it harder to find the game. A bit harder to google for (unless someone has something to copy/paste), and if I'm making a verbal recommendation to someone, I'd have to tell them "It's called Invictus: Iter Æternum. The last word has the combined A and E character. Yeah, like the one in Æther. No I don't know the keyboard shortcut for that."

Oh of course it would be Aeternum for everything but the logos in-game - anywhere with actual typed characters will be "Iter Aeternum"; I can't be bothered to copy-paste the Æ character myself every time I type the name. But the ligature would look good on the logo.

Like the ones I had typed up for the last post and then decided I was getting ahead of myself?

Nah, I mean put the ideas out there. I just don't want to see a 5-page discussion on whether some specific value should be 5 or 7%.

Combined with the idea of revisiting aid, they could be made to have even less , but provide more powerful aid bonuses, emphasizing their role as a support unit acting on the sidelines. It would be even more interesting if the various recon promotions could be passed on to the units they're aiding in some form.

I don't think I'm up to reworking the actual mechanics, though, at least not in any major way - so the aid itself will still be tied to base strength. I haven't even looked at how it's all coded in the DLL yet, it might be far too complex for me to mess around with.

 

[globosud]

I'm playing the penultimate svn version, everything seems ok, the only thing is that there are very few wars, in the last two hundred years, no wars, if not something very short negligible. I don't know if this depends on the alliances, or if it's a particular case,
For me there is always the problem that after the Renaissance, there is practically no more trade in raw materials (resources), perhaps you could make troops tradable, or workers, or specialists, something that gives a reason to contact other civilizations, other than just asking for tribute or war and peace

 

[Ahnarras]

my current lead candidate is "Invictus: Iter Æternum" (with the added bonus of a cool ligature).

To gives you the PoV of someone who doesn't know any latin : I don't get it. I have no clue of what that's means, honestly.
Realism : Invictus is understandable even without knowing much latin, and a nice way to refer to Sol Invictus, something famous enough that I know about it even if I'm not, by any stretch, a fanatical of roman history.

But Iter Aeternum ? I would have to google that.
It could (could.) be a detriment to make that mod accessible to new players. Obviously, one can question how much that has to be taken in account when speaking about a mod for a 20+ years old

But ultimately, a name has to please it's creator, so if that's what you are going for, good ! I'm more curious about what big changes will be it in that 4.0

By the way, when a player unlocks the Axemen, they are the most powerful units in the game. They can kill (ancient) archers in the city with a chance of more than 90%. I would slightly reduce their bonus when attacking a city to +10-15% for their different variations. It's all about finding the right balance.

I think that's on purpose. In each era there is a (somewhat later in tech tree) unit that has big bonus in city attack. They are here to "unlock" the situation when you are being dragged down in unending wars, or allow you to blitz a city quickly.
If you want to be immune to that, then you have to invest the time to quickly research the next "city defender" unit, be it the composite bowmand for axeman or the longbowman for the man-at-arms.

I wouldn't want them to be nerf, to be honest. I tried to siege a few cities defended by composite bowmen with only spearman and S4 irregulars, it was awful. Having a few axemen in the stack allowed me to compensate the odds and sneak a win.
Also, axeman need bronze I think ? That means a ressource + time invested in a building, both that can be void by loosing the ressource/the city with the bronze smith. It's not the easiest unit to produce.

 

[Alekseyev_]

Well, next release version will probably be 4.0 - it's the 20th anniversary this year, and I was thinking about a bit of rebranding in conjunction with the anniversary edition. I wanted to ditch the "Realism" in the name for almost as long as it has been there, both for giving people skewed expectations of what the mod is really about, and due to the awful Latin/English mix in the name. I'm thinking of a fully Latin name for the anniversary edition instead; my current lead candidate is "Invictus: Iter Æternum" (with the added bonus of a cool ligature)

I think this is not the best idea, because the name Realism Invictus is so established at this point. Whether that's this forum, with this massive thread, the mod's own subforum or mod mentions in countless other threads, or also outside, in youtube videos and comments or discussions on other websites like reddit. "Realism Invictus" really is one of the most well known Civ4 mods and known for its great quality. And even if you think the "realism" part might cause wrong expectations, I think it actually frankly still is the most "realistic" mod of all Civ4 mods. If you want to move from the name a bit, I would do it via a subtitle, such as "Realism Invictus: Title", but the recognition and credit the original name has are just too much to give away.

Haven't had the time to play the latest release yet sadly and pretty busy altogether, but just quickly signed into CFC again to comment on this

want a little blast from the past?

I am open to reviewing the aid in general. Fits quite well into the overall philosophy of revisiting the older RI elements.

I think aid often alleviates logistical penalties a fair bit, or even out-compensates for them. Which makes the logistical system less impactful - so removing the aid system would help make logistical penalties worse. Alternatively, aid could also be made dependent on not exceeding the logistics cap [by too much] to achieve the same effect while also keeping the aid in place for optimal, small army combinations. Not sure what is best.

 

[tebriz]

I'm playing the penultimate svn version, everything seems ok, the only thing is that there are very few wars, in the last two hundred years, no wars, if not something very short negligible. I don't know if this depends on the alliances, or if it's a particular case

Play with Aggressive AI option ON. I think this option is a must have that you be ON by default. You will get just right about of wars.

 

[RezerCuid]

Ahnarras, I just want the new units to be stronger than the old ones. I want the military progress to feel better in antiquity.
(Right now, I don't care about these swordsmen, I can capture whoever I want, and the weather won't change from them)
For axemen, as one of the options, and for swordsmen, you need iron, and it's not a fact that you will have it, and AI sells it very inactively and at a high markup
(Walter, you don't need to change this)
P.s I mean that you don't need to change only the setting that the hardware is expensive on the market

My perfect - rainbow balance picture is as follows.
The spearman has 5 strength against (all types) of archers,
The axeman has 5.5 strength,
The swordsman has 6 strength.
And the city's defense for composite bowmans can be increased to +60%.
To ensure that all classical units and peasants have a <50% chance of defeating him

 

[Ahnarras]

I think aid often alleviates logistical penalties a fair bit, or even out-compensates for them.

I noticed the same, when attacked by big stack of Romans suffering the first tiers of logistic penalty without that fact being really a problem for them.
Then I look around a bit more into the stackaid and yeah, the % bonus of the aid can compensate the logistic debuff.

Currently I'm trying to stay at logistic 1 for my attacking stack, but I'm pretty sure you can go higher without suffering too much about it.
And that's only on the offense : while defending, a bigger stack is obviously even better by adding the fact that the ennemy has to circle through all your units (usually) before having a fair chance of killing them on round 2. The bigger the stack, the more "HP" your army has.

(Don't get me wrong Walter, your system is still CENTURIES ahead the vanilla game and I like it a lot. I don't recommand to nerf the logistic either : making the logistic penalty hit harder would means being unable to siege some city with few tiles to place your armies around, for exemple).

Ahnarras, I just want the new units to be stronger than the old ones.

I get your point. I'm not sure how I feel about it, i tend to trust the creator on this kind of matter. Exact number are capricious to determine and I know some people around here are playing-testing dozen of games, so I wouldn't want to mess with the balance they deem the best. But if you wanna change those values, go ahead ! That's what wonderful with a mod, you can always adapt it to your playstile by editing the files

 

[TheBirdMan]

I think this is not the best idea, because the name Realism Invictus is so established at this point

I agree with this.

However as you do not like the mix of english/latin, then something like this below are closer to name we know today (I have been using a mix between my fantasy and the Google Translator):

Realismus Invictus (Invincibel Realism) - or
Realismus Invictus: Via ad Aeternitatem (Invincibel Realism: The road to Eternity).

Anyway - you still have 6 months or so to make your decision.

 

[TheBirdMan]

The last word has the combined A and E character. Yeah, like the one in Æther. No I don't know the keyboard shortcut for that."

It's only in Denmark and Norway we have all 3 letters Æ, Ø and Å as completely "independent" letters. æ/Æ can be written with ALT + 145/146 if needed.

 

[RezerCuid]

I think aid often alleviates logistical penalties a fair bit, or even out-compensates for them.

+

I think that for balance, it's better to give foot knights (9) at least a +10% bonus to capturing a city, so that they are not weaker than man-at-arms (8) in this regard.

 

[AspiringScholar]

It's only in Denmark and Norway we have all 3 letters Æ, Ø and Å as completely "independent" letters. æ/Æ can be written with ALT + 145/146 if needed.

I am a stereotypical American, but I can at least read enough Latin and Elder Futhark to make a modicum of sense of that.