Really liking the game, but Modern Age and Cultural Victory in particular isn't there yet + random thoughts

[gamemaster3000]

Tuning needs some work in the modern age. Not only am I absolutely flying through the trees, but some Civs are probably way out of line. I've only played two games but Mexico...I was cranking out 1500 culture a turn without even going for culture! (Difficulty 4/6)

I'd effectively won in the middle of exploration, but settled half the world to try and get as many factory resources as possible to test out economic victory. (Hint: the game doesn't tell you the Great Banker can instantly teleport between capitals.)

Despite setting myself up for economic victory, I had 15 relics + the world fair "complete" (I just stopped building with one turn left) about 20+ turns earlier than economic victory became available. A science victory would have been 40-60 turns after that.

Although did they change it? At launch the artifacts stayed on the ground and everyone got a copy, now it seems that it's back to Civ 6 and only the first to arrive gets one?

Mostly I'm just discussing the problem but some brainstorming of solutions:
--The number of beakers and culture it takes to get techs and civics needs to be increased, perhaps scaling more with map size and starting era
--Cultural victory needs to...actually take...culture. And there being a way to stop it wouldn't hurt.
--Being able to instantly plunk down scores of buildings in a just-settled town isn't realistic. No amount of gold should let you build Rome in a day. Nor is industrializing with railroads/ports/factories instantly, either. (Hammers need to be a part of the equation there.)
--Computer players...their cities had no buildings but they were getting tons of free units. Maybe give them some more free buildings but make them actually build more units in line with how developed the city is.

One thing I really enjoyed though...I actually managed to have an entirely peaceful Modern Age. That has almost never happened in the 30 years I've been playing Civ. Really nice that there's more peaceful options and avenues that can be pursued, and I actually managed to form an alliance with a neighbor instead of fighting, which I almost always have ended up doing.

 

[MACKA0ili]

Having recently finished my most "complete" Modern Age game (mostly because of how badly I did in Exploration) I agree with pretty much all of what you are saying. The Modern Age has some fun things in it, but it usually goes by too quickly to enjoy fully.

For your specific points:
-I think that instead of scaling costs for techs and civics, adding more of them while also rearranging unlocks would work better. Currently the modern tech tree, and really all of the tech trees, funnels down into a single tech which doesnt allow for much choice or specialization. Same with the ideology trees which are a straight line. Adding another row and fanning out at the ends to each would help make the age feel longer while also allowing some specialization
- I agree wholeheartedly with your take on the culture victory. Having it focus on the number of great works rather than the quality of the culture is gonna take a pretty big revamp. I like your idea of being able to stop explorers, reminds me of Indiana Jones
-I dont think there should be an added production cost for buying buildings, that kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe allowing only one building per turn to be bought or being stricter on building requirements for the more powerful ones, kinda like how you need a rail connection for factories but with other requirements.
-Yes, absolutely give the CPU some free buildings. At least the warehouse ones.

 

[queenpea]

Although did they change it? At launch the artifacts stayed on the ground and everyone got a copy, now it seems that it's back to Civ 6 and only the first to arrive gets one?

Yes, this has been changed -- it's now a race. Once an excavation of an artifact has been initiated, it cannot be replicated or stolen by another player.

 

[CliffCo]

Yes, this has been changed -- it's now a race. Once an excavation of an artifact has been initiated, it cannot be replicated or stolen by another player.

Except for those gained from natural wonders, every leader can gain those regardless of who got there first.

 

[queenpea]

Except for those gained from natural wonders, every leader can gain those regardless of who got there first.

Yes.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I am amazed that the developers managed to essentially bring back the garbage vanilla civ 5 culture victory, which was scrapped for a very good reason.
The one where you filled out 5 social policy trees, and then built the Utopia Project to win the game once constructed.

Fortunately they came to their senses some 10+ years ago and made the great improvement that was tourism and great works, and expanded further upon that in civ 6.

Then for some reason we go back to this utterly trash gameplay where the cultural game is essentially about "collect x of y to unlock z, then build z to win".
They could just rename the World's Fair to the Utopia Project now to keep things honest.

 

[gamemaster3000]

To me it was obvious that it's supposed to be the "great works" of the industrial age, except they ran out of time and had to mash the industrial age and the modern age together to get the product out the door.

The relics will be just fine as the 3rd age culture track, but yah I'm positive they weren't intended to be the victory condition originally.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

To me it was obvious that it's supposed to be the "great works" of the industrial age, except they ran out of time and had to mash the industrial age and the modern age together to get the product out the door.

The relics will be just fine as the 3rd age culture track, but yah I'm positive they weren't intended to be the victory condition originally.

Problem is though, the victory conditions for all victory types have borrowed elements of "MMO style quest designs".
Having to sail back and forth to some islands in the exploration age to collect 20 bear noses (oh wait, wrong game..) for economic victory is arcadey as all hell, and is extremely uninteractive since you basically just focus on yourself while what everyone else does is sort of secondary to just collecting enough sh*t to finish the "quest".
It's also extremely unintuitive, repetitive, linear and boring, and does not make me want to play the game in the slightest.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I am amazed that the developers managed to essentially bring back the garbage vanilla civ 5 culture victory, which was scrapped for a very good reason.
The one where you filled out 5 social policy trees, and then built the Utopia Project to win the game once constructed.

Fortunately they came to their senses some 10+ years ago and made the great improvement that was tourism and great works, and expanded further upon that in civ 6.

Then for some reason we go back to this utterly trash gameplay where the cultural game is essentially about "collect x of y to unlock z, then build z to win".
They could just rename the World's Fair to the Utopia Project now to keep things honest.

It's a matter of personal taste, but cultural victory in Civ6 looks much worse to me. The bogging tourism mechanic is awful.

The idea of building something after achieving some milestones is not that bad itself. Science victory works that way from Civ1 to Civ7 without any breaks as far as I remember. It's just a matter of tuning.

 

[queenpea]

It's a matter of personal taste, but cultural victory in Civ6 looks much worse to me. The bogging tourism mechanic is awful.

The idea of building something after achieving some milestones is not that bad itself. Science victory works that way from Civ1 to Civ7 without any breaks as far as I remember. It's just a matter of tuning.

I liked the concept of tourism -- culture as a defensive mechanic and tourism as an offensive one -- but it was poorly explained (sensing a trend here) and the mechanics like rock bands required a lot of micromanagement.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I liked the concept of tourism -- culture as a defensive mechanic and tourism as an offensive one -- but it was poorly explained (sensing a trend here) and the mechanics like rock bands required a lot of micromanagement.

It's also very passive, like religious influence and loyalty. You build up your offense and defense and just wait... I found two, usually opposing, problems in Civ game mechanics - systems being too passive and requiring too much micromanagement. Civ6 cultural victory somehow managed to have both problems at the same time.

I think the right balance is Civ6 science victory. You have several perfectly controlled steps to achieve. No shady calculations, no repetitive activities.

 

[Sagax]

It's also very passive, like religious influence and loyalty. You build up your offense and defense and just wait... I found two, usually opposing, problems in Civ game mechanics - systems being too passive and requiring too much micromanagement. Civ6 cultural victory somehow managed to have both problems at the same time.

I think the right balance is Civ6 science victory. You have several perfectly controlled steps to achieve. No shady calculations, no repetitive activities.

My stance on tourism is that they had a perfectly crafted system in Civ 5 BNW and somehow overcomplicated it in Civ 6 for no apparent reason. In 5 you had your great works as usual, with a simple exchange-like system where you could trade works with other leaders to get the right puzzle piece for theming - not a necessity, but a good option if you needed to squeeze out extra tourism. At the same time, each GWAM had two abilities: create a great work or “trigger a bomb”. For example, a Great Writer could create a writing piece as we know it, but could also instead be spend for a burst of culture as a defense mechanism against another player’s tourism - thus giving you options and tradeoffs that shift depending on how late into the game you are.

Felt more straightforward, more transparent, and less finicky. The only improvement in Civ6 was that many UIs could also generate tourism, which is thematically appropriate to me.

 

[stealth_nsk]

My stance on tourism is that they had a perfectly crafted system in Civ 5 BNW and somehow overcomplicated it in Civ 6 for no apparent reason. In 5 you had your great works as usual, with a simple exchange-like system where you could trade works with other leaders to get the right puzzle piece for theming - not a necessity, but a good option if you needed to squeeze out extra tourism. At the same time, each GWAM had two abilities: create a great work or “trigger a bomb”. For example, a Great Writer could create a writing piece as we know it, but could also instead be spend for a burst of culture as a defense mechanism against another player’s tourism - thus giving you options and tradeoffs that shift depending on how late into the game you are.

Felt more straightforward, more transparent, and less finicky. The only improvement in Civ6 was that many UIs could also generate tourism, which is thematically appropriate to me.

Yes, Great Work trading was a great system, much less micromanagement than Civ6 bands. Still, the passivity of tourism vs. culture was still there.