Reassigning the Civ Traits

How many of these trait changes do you agree with?

  • Basically all of them!

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • Some, but definitely not others

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • One or two

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Why are you wasting your time doing this?

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8

JohannTheAxe

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 24, 2014
Messages
6
What first began as a desire to replace three of the new Conquest civs (Sumerians, Byzantines, Hittites...yawn), soon, out of necessity turned into an effort to rethink-- and reassign-- each civilizations' respective traits.

Obviously, giving a set of two and only two traits to a civilization that, in some cases, has existed for nearly two millennia is exceedingly difficult, and I commend the gamemakers. However, I think you'll all agree with me that some times, the assigned traits didn't fit.

Often times this was due to the reality that every trait "pairing" had to be represented in the game...but other times I think this happened because people didn't get creative enough. Especially when Conquests was introduced, freeing the gamemakers up to reevaluate not just those civs affected by the introduction of AG and SF, but every civ period.

With that in mind, I went ahead an did the reevaluating for them. It was certainly a challenge, not only was I balancing the desire to get each civ the two traits that most closely resonated with it, I was also attempting to represent every trait pairing...two goals that don't always work together. So some slight, but necessary sacrifices were made. Nonetheless, I think what I've come up with works pretty well.

Additionally, I had to grapple with the fact that many civs represented have gone through some exceedingly different incarnations, ie, medieval France is vastly different than imperial France under Napoleon. So when thinking about each civ's traits, I tried to think of the traits that defined said civ during its "golden age," which usually, but not always, was the age in which that civ's Civ3 leaderhead lived in.

With that in mind, I present my reassigned civ traits Civilizations. Keep in mind that there are a few new-comers (Austria, Khmer, Mali, Sioux) and departures (Byzantines, Hittites, Sumerians, and the Celts [yes the Celts!])! A table of the civ traits immediately follows, and below that I have an explanation for the rationale for each one. Enjoy and please let me know what you think!!!

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OK. So if that table was too confusing....here's an individual breakdown!

AMERICA: Commercial and Industrious
America's previous pairing included the Expansionist trait...which is nice when referring to Manifest Destiny, but I'm not sure it necessarily defines what the American experience has been about. The Commercial trait is, I think, a better fit. After all, as President Calvin Coolidge said, "The business of America is business." Industrious is a good fit as America is still one of the most productive places in the world (though Scientific would also make sense). But the Ind/Com pairing is nice because it gives the American player extraordinary flexibility to win through a number of avenues. Additionally, who's for doing away with the silly fighter plane UU? Instead, how about a greatly enhanced marine, called the Navy SEAL.

ARAB: Expansionist and Religious
Like the Americans, and many other Civ3 civs, the Arabs have historically been versatile enough that it's pretty difficult to pin them down. For instance, during the Dark Ages in Europe, it was the scientific brilliance of the Arabs that kept the Western canon alive. The Arabs are also know for their military campaigns and brilliant commanders, ala Saldin. However, in the period of Abu Bakr's reign during the nascent years of Islam, Expansionist and Religious defines the Arabs perfectly, as they spread the Prophet's religion throughout Northern Africa and the Middle East.

AUSTRIA: Industrious and Militaristic
The "hidden" C3C civ, Austria keeps its default pairing. The Austro-Hungarian was a productivity powerhouse in the late 19th and early 20th century, and their military might was also superior. Commercial was also considered here, as was Religious, but the Austrians are uniquely suited to take the Ind/Mil pairing (that I have the Chinese vacating)so there you have it. The default UU and settings for this hidden civ would work well.

AZTEC: Agricultural and Militaristic
One thing you'll notice if you briefly glance at the default civ traits for Conquerors is that the gamemakers basically assigned the Agricultural trait to anyone and everyone in the New World (Americans aside), which is a really limited way to about things. The Aztecs, for instance, were probably better represented by their PTW pairing, Militaristic and Religious. In fact, I might even say they're more Religious than Militaristic, as one seemed to be dependent on the other. However, there are trade-offs in everything, and that particular pairing fit with others who couldn't take the Agricultural label. Thus, Aztecs take Agricultural, and no changes to the C3C default.

BABYLON: Religious and Scientific
Babylon is still the king of culture in my version of Civ. Not much to explain here: the Babylonians were innovators in everything from law to architecture and devoted much of their efforts to an ever-developing religious expression.

CARTHAGE: Commercial and Seafaring
The final manifestation of the great sea-trading Phoenicians, the Carthaginians are rightly Seafaring. However, the Industrious trait they were assigned in both PTW and C3C is certainly puzzling, and is probably due to the gamemakers not knowing who else could carry the pairing, because it certainly isn't represented very well historically. Like their Phoenician forefathers, the Carthaginians were almost exclusively about trading up and down the coast of the Mediterranean. As a result, Commerical, not Industrious, is a must-have for the Carthaginians.

CHINESE: Agricultural and Industrious
Mao Zedong is the leader for the Chinese in Civ3, and if I were basing my assignment of civ traits solely on that fact, I might have left them with the IND/MIL pairing. However, China's history extends far beyond Mao, and is rich with scientific, religious, and economic brilliance. The two traits, I'd argue, that have always been consistent, however, are Agricultural and Industrious. The Chinese are a many-numbered people, and have been for thousands of years. While Europe was recovering from the Dark Ages, China had cities numbering near the millions. This characteristic has certainly continued to define China into the 21st century as well. Additionally, Industrious works well for the Chinese. Think of the Great Wall of China, arguably one of the greatest feats of engineering in human history. It may have taken a while, but China has also certainly embraced an industrial economy in the modern era, and is one of the most prolific centers of production in the world. This is a good trait pairing because, like the Americans COM/IND pairing, AG/IND gives the Chinese a ton of flexibility as to how they'll play the game. Additionally, AG/IND is arguably the best trait pairing in the game, and it felt wrong to "waste" it on the Mayans.

DUCTH: Agricultural and Seafaring
They're not necessarily the most synergistic traits when paired together, but if anyone was going to take the AG/SF pairing it was going to be the Dutch, renowned for owning the sea both by navigating it and reclaiming it for agricultural purposes. Easy pairing.

ENGLISH: Industrial and Seafaring
I feel like this move is one that could cause a little bit of controversy. In C3C, Elizabeth and the English are renowned for having stacks upon stacks of gold, thanks to the economic double-whammy of the Commercial and Seafaring pairing. And I certainly agree that this is a fantastic pairing for the English, in fact, the best possible. The problem, though, is that a related pairing, IND/SF, simply doesn't work at all for the Carthaginians, who are much better suited for COM/SF. England meanwhile, as the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, is certainly suited to take on the IND/SF pairing, even if I think it's idealistically second to the COM/SF that defined the English's empire. However, when assigning trait pairings, small sacrifices have to be made, and this is certainly one that I can live with, even if it makes the English a far less powerful civ. To shift them even further away from the sea, I'd also like to give them a new UU: the redcoat, an enhanced Rifleman (can you believe there's no UU rifleman?).

FRENCH: Religious and Scientific
I don't think anyone got quite the makeover the French did. While their previous COM/IND pairing offered some nice flexibility, it didn't really give them an identity. As REL/SCI, however, they certainly have a new identity: cultural kings. Because let's face it, aside from some imperialistic tendencies in the 19th century, culture is what France is known for. Plus, aside from the fact that they're great for cultural synergy, both these traits make sense on their own. France has long been considered the Eldest Daughter of the Catholic Church, and throughout the Middle Ages, when the Civ3 French leader Joan of Arc was living, religion had a pervasive effect on every aspect of society. I mean, let's face it, it's kind of silly that the civ best known for beautiful cathedrals can't build them for half price. The scientific trait makes a lot of sense too-- if you're thinking about it correctly. The French certainly have their gems in the natural sciences (Pasteur, Curie, etc), but if you consider what Science really means in Civ3, France is an even more obvious fit, as it's been the breeding ground for some of the most influential ideas in human history: democracy, socialism, the Enlightenment, dualism, rationalism etc, etc, etc. Point being, the French have historically had some of the best minds on the planet. So yes, quite a shift for the France that certainly limits how they'll be playing this game, but the REL/SCI pairing certainly makes them a cultural threat with only one real equal.

EGYPT: Industrious and Religious
The introduction of the agricultural trait certainly made me consider if a change needed to be made with the Egyptians. After all, the Egyptian civilization would have never existed in the first place if it hadn't been for their farming along the rich flood plains of the Nile. So Agricultural is certainly a legitimate consideration. However, in the end, the combination of Religious and Industrious is what really allowed the Egyptians to leave their mark, and defines their greatest accomplishments, from the Pyramids to the Sphinx to Karnak to Luxor. These people took religion very seriously, and they knew how to build the buildings necessary to prove that.

GERMAN: Militaristic and Scientific
With the Chinese vacating the coveted IND/MIL pairing, the Germans were ideal candidates to replace them. Ultimately, however, it was a better overall fit to leave the Germans at MIL/SCI and assign the IND/MIL to the newcoming Austrians. I'm not completely sold on this trait pairing, and would definitely be open to hearing arguements for why the Germans are more deserving of the coveted IND/MIL combo, something I'd definitely consider even more seriously if I replaced the Austrians with someone else (Israel, Ethiopia). As is though, the Germans work well as Militaristic and Scientific, better than anyone else, so they keep the pairing.

GREEK: Commercial and Scientific
Depending on what part--geographical or chronological--of Ancient Greece we're talking about, the number of traits are seemingly endless. The Spartans were certainly militaristic, the Ionians ruled the seas, and what was Alexander if not Expansionist? However, when considering what traits unite Ancient Greece together, the default COM/SCI gets the job done. Whether along Mediterranean waterways or the Silk Road, the Greeks laid down the first semblance of an imperial economy that thrived on trade. Additionally, with Greek names like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle being synonymous with the height of ancient wisdom, the Scientific trait is also an easy one to assign.

INCA: Agricultural and Expansionist

If you're like me, what you know about the Incas came to you through the lens of the Spanish-- so not a lot. What I do know, however, is that the Incas were the ultimate masters of their "home turf"--the Andes in western South America. They developed terraced farms to thrive in their unique environment and also built a system of mountain roadways that stretched thousands of miles to the far reaches of their empire up and down the Pacific Coast. From that bit, we have enough to assign the Incas some traits. Agricultural gets the nod given their prolific mountainside farming skills, but the next bit seems to be a toss up between Industrious and Expansionist. On the one hand, they built and incredible system of roads, but on the other, they built the roads to service a far-flung empire. Expansionist makes a little more sense for the Incas than it does for the Mayans, so AG/EXP it is.

INDIA: Agricultural and Commercial
India is a classic example of civilization so old and so multi-facted that it's hard to nail down two and only two traits to define them. Especially considering Gandhi is their leader in Civ3, the religious options makes a ton of sense for the civ that was the birthplace of Hinduism and Buddhism. Commercial is also a great fit, as India was basically everyone European traders destination of choice, and different Indian kingdoms prospered as economic kingpins. However, the introduction of the Agricultural trait, and particularly how the gamemakers assigned it in the C3C default, caused me to consider the trait for the Indians. For one, there was the fact that it was a good fit for them; for another, I was somewhat put-off by the fact that all of the "New World" civs (America excluded) were sort of given the Agricultural trait as a default, a short-sighted and arguably stereotypical move if there ever was one. Clearly, other civs have been Agricultural powerhouses, such as the Chinese and yes, the Indians. Like China, India has always been a populous place, and that reality has been supported by a heck of a lot of farming. Replacing the Religious trait was a very tough decision, as it might actually fit India, especially under Gandhi, better than Commercial, but I didn't think there was another solid civ to take the AG/COM trait pairing. As we so often see with these big, old, and versatile civs, they often end up with pairings that aren't necessarily the ultimate ideal, but they still certainly fit very well.

IROQUOIS: Commercial and Expansionist
If you couldn't tell from the previous entry, it bothered me that each New World indigenous civ got Agricultural trait. The Iroquois, for instance, certainly had a lot more to offer. The Iroqouois traits really present themselves when we consider what the Iroquois Nation was--a confederation of several smaller nations who joined together for economic and defensive reasons. Take away: the Iroquois people covered a whole lot of land and prioritized their economy, whether it was through trading with themselves of the Europeans. COM/EXP is a fine pairing, and better than AG/anything else.


JAPANESE: Militaristic and Religious
The samurai might as well be the mascot for the Japanese in Civ3: an incredibly disciplined and skilled warrior and a deeply spiritual and principled man. As such, the MIL/REL trait pairing is a somewhat easy one to assign. Seafaring also got some consideration, but given the Japenese's occasional isolationist tendencies, it didn't make sense to define them with that trait.

KHMER: Agricultural and Religious
Another one of my new-comers, the Khmer are the token Southeastern civ that C3C was lacking. Khmer, like China, sustained itself on massive and prolific rice fields. The Khmer's other claim to fame is Angkor Wat, and other similar religious cities throughout the empire. Given these facts, AG/REL seemed like an obvious assignment, especially considering I kind of wanted to do away with the Celts (Europe is too well represented). For those who are wondering: aggression is 3*, unique unit is a crossbowman (+1 defense longbowman), and they probably grow their cities and build a lot of happiness and culture.

KOREAN: Seafaring and Scientific
Everyone's least favorite civ just got a bit better, at least on archipelago maps. Although not an island, Korea is very much a place close to the sea, surrounded by water on three sides. The Koreans lacked much military punch on land, but defended themselves from Japanese incursion largely with the aid of a formidable navy. The Seafaring trait is also a better fit than Commercial, which generally applies to civs that had expansive empires and trade networks. The Koreans did a fair bit of trading, but they did most of it by sea and didn't claim lands comparable size to those of Rome or Greece or the US. Scientific remains a good trait to assign to a people who I think of as the "nerds" of the pre-modern Orient.

MALI: Commercial and Religious
Mali is classically one of the most forgotten empires when it comes to historical strategy games (I know they're in Civ4, but AoE, come on!) I try to rectify that here, while also adding another African nation. The Malians under Mansa Musa had one of the most impressive trade networks on the face of the planet at that time, stretching from West Africa north to the Mediterranean and East to Arabia. Additionally, the western African nation embraced Islam, and devoted much of their wealth to their religious cause. This synergy is manifested both in Mali's medieval capital, Timbuktu, but also in Musa, its most famous leader, who went on the Hajj to Mecca complete with a caravan of gold-laden camels. The Malians weren't afraid to pick a fight with a neighbor, and Timbuktu was also arguably a scientific centre as well, but COM/REL is the perfect billing for the Malians. For the UU, it'd probably be a 5/2/2 knight...the Malian military was known for its deadly mounted units. Aggression is 3*, and they build wealth, happiness, and offensive units.

MAYAN: Agricultural and Scientific
The Mayans' days of domination are somewhat over, as they lose the Industrious trait, a trait that was especially lethal considering their UU spawned workers. Without the Industrious trait, those slaves lose a lot of their value. But in addition to attempting to slightly "nerf" the Mayans, I also wanted to be more historically accurate and address what I took to be stereotypical tendencies on the part of the gamemaker. True, the Mayans built some incredible buildings, but there innovations in science, math in particular, were what allowed them to be exceptional architects. They made additional advances in astronomy and agriculture that were just as advanced, if not more advanced, than similar developments in Europe. So Industrious isn't a bad trait, it's just that giving the Mayans the Scientific trait helps give some geographic diversity to the game's civ traits, and helps put the kabosh on Eurasia's monopoly on the Scientific trait.

MONGOL: Expansionist and Militaristic
Aside from their ferocious hordes and the fact that they once covered more ground than any other empire, I'm not sure what there is to say about the Mongols. So no need to overthink the default EXP/MIL trait pairing. On a sidenote, I'm playing with them for the first time right now, and Keshik's, essentially cheap Knights, can really allow you to dominate the Middle Ages.

OTTOMAN: Expansionist and Industrious
Admittedly, I don't know how happy I am with the Ottoman's trait pairings. Expansionist makes a ton of sense, as they moved west into Anatolia and eventually into Eastern Europe. But I'm just not too sold on Industrious. Istanbul is certainly an amazing city with its fair share of engineering marvels (even excluding the Byzantine ones), but I don't know if the Turkey was necessarily an epicenter of industry. But the other traits that make sense, such as Religious or Militaristic or even Scientific, were already occupied by more deserving civs. So I'm not disappointed with this pairing, but it's not one that excites me either. I suppose the Russians and Ottomans could switch, or even the Persians and the Ottomans, but I'm content with how things are now. Sacrificing ideal pairings is the price of a system that is good and works for everyone.

PERSIAN: Industrious and Scientific
I never really questioned this trait pairing back in the day, but I wonder how good of a fit it is. The Persians in the time of Xerxes were certainly no Scientific slouches and also had a pretty well established road system, but I wonder if their main asset was more Commercial? No matter, both COM/IND and COM/SCI belong to other civs who fit them better so, somewhat similar to the Ottomans, the Persians get, or I should say keep, a trait pairing that I'm not necessarily thrilled about.

PORTUGUESE: Expansionist and Seafaring
Someone had to be saddled with the least synergetic trait pairing in the game, and I see no reason that the Portuguese shouldn't get that designation. While traits like Commercial or Religious make more sense than Expansionist, if anyone can shoulder the EXP/SF combo it's the Portuguese, who were exceptional Renaissance explores and colonizers from their Southewest European perch. In fact, in the Civ3, the majority of their cities aren't actual cities in Portugal, but cities they established either in Africa or South America. This actually bothers me a little bit...I'd replace the Portguese with some other civ, but I don't know if there's anyone else for the trait pairing that makes sense! Maybe the Ethiopians?

ROME: Commercial and Militaristic
I really wanted to change the Romans to MIL/IND. After all, all roads lead to Rome, and the Romans built them primarily to move their armies around the empire quickly. But the roads also served another purpose: economically connecting the different ends of the empire. Additionally, Rome was also known for its unified imperial currency, the closest thing to an international economy the world had yet to see. So I considered swapping traits between the Romans and the Austrians, but ultimately, I think COM/MIL is the best fit for the Rome...although IND/MIL would make them a little more playable and formidable...

RUSSIAN: Expansionist and Scientific
I group Russia along with the Ottomans and the Persians: civs with trait pairings that I accept, but am not thrilled about. Ironically, they're all in a somewhat similar geographic area: Eurasia. Russia, perhaps more so than the Ottomans or the Persians, could really lay claim to nearly every trait. The cradle or Orthodoxy makes it Religious, its huge peasant economy makes it Agricultural, and its fierce fighting against the Mongols and then the Europeans gives Russia some Militaristic chops. But because other civs didn't have as much flexibility, Russia ends up with EXP/SCI. Both traits definitely do describe Russia, an Expansionistic people that pushed into Eastern Europe but all the way to the Pacific, and an innovative and intellectual people who have produced some of the world's best music, literature, and thought. Like all big, old empires, it's hard to find a satisfying fit, but I think this combo does the trick for Russia.

SIOUX: Militaristic and Religious
The Sioux are in my game because one indigenous North American civ doesn't cut it. Unlike the Iroquois, who learned to adapt to an increasingly European America, the Sioux were resistors from the get-go, fighting westward expansion with unrelenting ferocity. So that's the Militaristic trait, an easy enough one to assign. As for the other trait, Expansionist would probably be the best fit, as the Sioux controlled much of North America west of the Mississippi and were always increasing their holdings. But because the EXP/MIL combo is already occupied by two civs, I'm fine giving the Sioux the MIL/REL combo, especially considering that the Celts are not in my version of the game. The Sioux's religious practices weren't necessarily unified across their lands, but they were intense and a vital part of their culture. So MIL/REL it is. As for a UU, especially considering that the Celtic Gaelic Swordsman is gone, a 3/2/2 Dog Soldier is an easy call. Except to make it even more lethal, it requires no iron. Aggression is 4*, and the build a whole heck of a lot of ground units.

SPANISH: Religious and Seafaring
There are some trait pairings, especially when it comes to the Seafaring civs, that are obvious fits, and that's the case with the Spanish and the REL/SF trait combo. While other civs during the Age of Exploration had religious motives, they don't hold a candle to the Spanish fervor. Commercial was a nice fit for the Spanish in PTW, but especially given the "commercial" aspect of the Seafaring trait, REL/SF is the perfect combination.

VIKINGS: Militaristic and Seafaring You know what I just said about "obvious fits"? That's the Vikings. Although they were about a lot more than sailing around and raiding, ♥♥♥♥♥♥, and pillaging, that is what they're best known for and what best distinguishes the Vikings as a unique civilization. So MIL/SF it is.

ZULU: Expansionist and Militaristic
I can't say I know a whole ton about the Zulus. But how they're portrayed in Civ, EXP/MIL, or really anything primitive and brutish, seems like the ideal pairing. Of course, I'm basing how they should be assigned traits in Civ on how they're already portrayed in Civ. That's a bit problematic. To address that, I'd be perfectly content with doing away with the Zulus, especially considering there's already a EXP/MIL civ, and replacing them with another African civ like Ethiopia, or someone culturally significant like Israel. As it is, the Zulus are still in the game, and so they're still EXP/MIL
 

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What I have been doing is going with three traits in some circumstances, like the Dutch having Seafaring, Agricultural, and Commercial. The English are Seafaring, Commercial, and Expansionist.
 
Additionally, I had to grapple with the fact that many civs represented have gone through some exceedingly different incarnations, ie, medieval France is vastly different than imperial France under Napoleon.

In my eyes, this is the most important sentence in your post. I came to the same conclusion while reflecting about that problem some years ago. As traits cannot be changed during the game, the solution must come from a different side: My guess are combinations of different buildings for different time periods. The present existing leaderheads are changed to flags and very important leaders appear as great wonders only buildable for the civ that had that great leader. Each of the different GW-leaders can give up to two special buildings influencing the destiny of every city of the civ (additionally to the benefits that each GW can give to a player). Most important: These GW-leaders can become obsolete and can change. On my current versions of my mod I´m far away from that solution yet, but I´m nearing to that solution step by step.

Per example the GW "Napoleon" can give temporary barracks for each city on the continent and produces a cannon every 4 turns (and may be a lot of other options), while a GW "Queen Victoria" could give a special national flag that can be used as a perequisite for mighty naval bases in coastal cities, producing ironclads, and so on and can be also used for cheap special buildings for trade and against corruption.

This way to solve the problem offers an enormous cornucopia to deal with the problem you have described above.

Another problem is, that many of the original traits must be used to cure other problems in the balancing and programming of Civ 3 (for example the trait "religious" should be given to every civ to balance the -in my eyes - wrong setting of anarchy in civ 3. I also gave the trait expansionistic to every civ, as I need the additional starting slot for other duties).

The third aspect with traits is, that you need all the traits covered by Great wonders for triggering a Golden Age by a GW. On the other side more traits cause more distortions in cheaper building costs. So if one operates with more traits, these effects must be taken into account.

A simple solution of the last points could be, if a GW "Napoleon" should trigger the GA for France, to give that GW all traits needed to achieve the GA for France.
 
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I disagree with industrious for England and religious for France among other things. I'd give the Romans industrious, but that's just me.

What I have been doing is going with three traits in some circumstances, like the Dutch having Seafaring, Agricultural, and Commercial. The English are Seafaring, Commercial, and Expansionist.

I do that too.
 
In my eyes, this is the most important sentence in your post. I came to the same conclusion while reflecting about that problem some years ago. As traits cannot be changed during the game, the solution must come from a different side: My guess are combinations of different buildings for different time periods. The present existing leaderheads are changed to flags and very important leaders appear as great wonders only buildable for the civ that had that great leader. Each of the different GW-leaders can give up to two special buildings influencing the destiny of every city of the civ (additionally to the benefits that each GW can give to a player). Most important: These GW-leaders can become obsolete and can change. On my current versions of my mod I´m far away from that solution yet, but I´m nearing to that solution step by step.

Per example the GW "Napoleon" can give temporary barracks for each city on the continent and produces a cannon every 4 turns (and may be a lot of other options), while a GW "Queen Victoria" could give a special national flag that can be used as a perequisite for mighty naval bases in coastal cities, producing ironclads, and so on and can be also used for cheap special buildings for trade and against corruption.

This way to solve the problem offers an enormous cornucopia to deal with the problem you have described above.

Another problem is, that many of the original traits must be used to cure other problems in the balancing and programming of Civ 3 (for example the trait "religious" should be given to every civ to balance the -in my eyes - wrong setting of anarchy in civ 3. I also gave the trait expansionistic to every civ, as I need the additional starting slot for other duties).

The third aspect with traits is, that you need all the traits covered by Great wonders for triggering a Golden Age by a GW. On the other side more traits cause more distortions in cheaper building costs. So if one operates with more traits, these effects must be taken into account.

A simple solution of the last points could be, if a GW "Napoleon" should trigger the GA for France, to give that GW all traits needed to achieve the GA for France.

This all awesome, very thought out, but also very involved. Too involved for me! I think you're right, civs' traits change over time, but I was looking for a fix within the current framework, not a solution that required an entire new framework.
 
I disagree with industrious for England and religious for France among other things. I'd give the Romans industrious, but that's just me.

Why do you disagree with the English getting industrial? Better them than the Carthaginians, I say.

And explain the French rationale. France was religious for a lot longer than it hasn't been since the Enlightenment/Revolution.

Yah, I wanted to make the Romans industrial, but my brother convinced me otherwise. I think commercial fits just as well.
 
Why do you disagree with the English getting industrial? Better them than the Carthaginians, I say.

Industrious could work, but I think that Seafaring/Commercial or Seafaring/Expansionist seems to be a better fit for them.

And explain the French rationale. France was religious for a lot longer than it hasn't been since the Enlightenment/Revolution.

Yes, but so was most of Europe.
 
Industrious could work, but I think that Seafaring/Commercial or Seafaring/Expansionist seems to be a better fit for them.



Yes, but so was most of Europe.

France was particularly Catholic. Oldest Daughter of the Church, lots of religious orders founded, cathedrals in every city, etc. And you're right, Europe has an incredible religious heritage, kind of stupid that only one European civ is religious.

Re: England, again, if you want every pair to be represented, they're a better fit for industrious than the Carthaginians are, and that's what it came down to for me.
 
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