Reclaiming Honor (warmonger's strategy)

[jeespoks]

Peter helps Honor in other ways. Playing with reloads changes a lot.

I don't understand, do you mean reloading to win the battles etc or is there some trick to reloading I'm not aware of. How can you be sure he uses reloading btw? I'm not trying to argue if he is but reloading takes away quite a bit of the glory of those fast finish times...

About the issue in topic...I haven't been able to take advantage of Honor and every time I've used policies on Honor it's has just been slowing me down on science especially. Maybe Honor could work with Aztecs (I think you brought this up earlier) when going for cultural win and go for Rationalism instead of Piety to keep up on tech. Maybe go with only one city with a lot of puppets and constant warring right from the start and try to roll though everyone with highly promoted units.

 

[JJOne]

My two cents... Found honor useful as:
- special game with el dorado in second city radius and early conquered terracota army. The policies come faster than research, and you have to invest them in something instead of rationalism.
- fourth or fifth tree in culture wins, after tradition, piety, freedom - mixing it with patronage.
- some war scenarios with limited tech, where it is by far the best choice (into the renaissance)

 

[The Pilgrim]

I don't understand, do you mean reloading to win the battles etc or is there some trick to reloading I'm not aware of. How can you be sure he uses reloading btw? I'm not trying to argue if he is but reloading takes away quite a bit of the glory of those fast finish times...

I don't know what's the purpose of reloading, you'll have to ask him. But save files he posted show dozens of reloads. He doesn't deny that, btw. Anyways, glory is the part that concerns me the least, my point is that we can't really use this as a testimony of strategy robustness.

 

[PimpmyCiv]

I agree that even in a domination game going honor isn't the best option.

I played a similar game not long ago (German, Raging Barbs) and I still went Tradition opener first, honor opener, oligarchy, finished the left side of the honor tree, then back to tradition. I didn't bother with the rest of honour until much later in the game.

Not sure I would even bother with the honor though without raging barbs on and a few specific civ choices (aztech, german, askia)... even then you are sacrificing alot.

 

[ense7en]

I can imagine playing on Marathon/Epic makes Honor MUCH more useful.

 

[atarihuana]

marathon maybe slightly, epic prolly not. epic /immortal/large, what i like to play, liberty is a bit stronger than on standard/ standard, but getting into patronage/commerce/rationalism is still far superior.

you dont need fighting bonuses vs the ai. its as simple as that really. tradition /liberty as first choice even on marathon/huge will allways be far superior.

the only place where it could make a diffrence imho is a naval map(very expensive upgrades/garrison happy bonus not that counterproductive)/ huge/marathon/domination only ( or else you just lose to AI tech)

 

[Maxym]

all theese discussion are always held under that premise: how effective ( = how fast) is the strat. and honor is just very, very slow

I think it can actually be really fast, just can't prove it at the Moment, I think I can take down up to two AI caps before even getting CBs on emperor or immortal, if you play a standard pangea that's almost 30% of your work done. I think sub 100 finishes are entirely possible. Would not use it on continents as u need astro and trad or lib are better for that.

I am Also very bad at testing anyting so I am hoping someone will play it out, attack as soon as 4 archers, initial warri and first GG are ready. It should take down non hill cap if the are improved tiles around.

Use that army to bully CS and keep rolling without any pauses.

 

[Maxym]

marathon maybe slightly, epic prolly not. epic /immortal/large, what i like to play, liberty is a bit stronger than on standard/ standard, but getting into patronage/commerce/rationalism is still far superior.

you dont need fighting bonuses vs the ai. its as simple as that really. tradition /liberty as first choice even on marathon/huge will allways be far superior.

the only place where it could make a diffrence imho is a naval map(very expensive upgrades/garrison happy bonus not that counterproductive)/ huge/marathon/domination only ( or else you just lose to AI tech)

All these point assume that there will be late tech to be aquired. On standard size maps you might not need even XB.

On naval map I would go with trad if cap can grow huge, and if somewhat constrained with liberty and bulb/oxford navigation. And then there won't be any late techs, and personally I prefer right side honor then, as I can get my frigates to range fast enough without losing them, but I need plenty of cash to upgrade two navies.

 

[Dreadnought]

I'm a longtime warmongerer (I cannot play peaceful games for the most part), and I really, really have tried to make Honor work.

I can't.

I've been going as far as skipping Honor entirely (Liberty-Rationalism-Autocracy or Liberty-Rationalism-Order) because the only half the tree is really good for direct conflicts (the others provide static bonuses that are meant to make the tree more attractive compared to Liberty/Tradition, and fail).

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Maybe where Honor would outweigh Tradition would be games where you do not, for hopefully intelligent reasons, settle any cities beyond your capital. Legalism and the finisher only apply, if I understand, to cities that you settle, not to conquests.

I had a go at it yesterday with China (inland sea, large map, raging barbarians, otherwise standard at emperor difficulty) and was able to take two caps quickly, razing everything else. I think that I'd have to go with a smaller map to keep up momentum. Another setting that might make it a little more doable for me would be an older planet, as I found hills and mountains in the way a lot, even on inland sea, which is an even more accessible map than pangea.

 

[Callonia]

My preference is that i generally open up tradition's opener first then honor opener 2nd, then kind of alternate from there on between those two trees.

And Honor is the one where the mightier you are and the mightier the foe is the more beneficial it is for you to have honor policies.

Why, the current game in progress... Iroquois alone threw more than 8 fleets after me in attempt to reclaim the greek colonies I relieved him of so that my heartland will be in less danger than before.

Fleets of nuclear submarines, missle cruisers, battleships, destroyers, mech infantry, giant death robots, SAM, etc... Sinking all those = you rich rich rich big rich man! With huge gold surplus gained from completing honor tree = cheaper unit purchases with gold made from destroying enemy's wartime assets which means your army/navy/airforce can stay at same strength while draining the enemy's forces at same time. Honor + Autocracy = yay.

I think i've made like 5k gold from sinking iroquois's materials today so far and that means i can fund the purchases of 10 destroyers at teh moment, they cost 540 gold. And that can replace quite easily what I lost right on the spot. Not bad considering i lost like 30ish destroyers in the war today. They get weeded out by attrition of facing an huge fleet ><

 

[warmonger]

Hi Guys,

Surprised to see my altra warmonger strategy getting so much discussion but I'm willing to hang around for a while to answer questions.

In general, the strategy works almost 100% on immortal for any civ playing on marathon. It works >50% of the time on diety. (Having said that, I've given up on my last two diety games because the random civ generator gave me Austria with Nappy/Hiawatha and Hiawatha/ Japan as near neighbours. By the time I had taken out one of the expansionist warmongers the other had an infinite supply of crossbow fodder. We just fought to a stalemate)

Yes, the settings are cheesy. It only works on marathon speed - your units don't go obsolete as quickly. Raging barbs slow down the AI a little and you cultivate much more culture.

The only times it doesn't work on Immortal is when the terrian prevents getting a safe line of sight to a key city. A minor city can be ignored but a capital surrounded by jungle hills is hard to crack before artilliary or bombers.

If you don't like my cheesy settings, don't play them - no skin off my nose! I play this way because I find it to be fun. I'm the first to admit I'm not a real diety player.

Happy to answer questions so fire away.

Cheers,

 

[The Pilgrim]

marathon maybe slightly, epic prolly not.

Epic is decently easier in that sense, marathon is much much easier.

I think it can actually be really fast, just can't prove it at the Moment, I think I can take down up to two AI caps before even getting CBs on emperor or immortal, if you play a standard pangea that's almost 30% of your work done. I think sub 100 finishes are entirely possible. Would not use it on continents as u need astro and trad or lib are better for that.

On emperor you can do that on standard speed if the closest capital isn't on hill. Even without Honor, GG doesn't hurt though

If you don't like my cheesy settings, don't play them - no skin off my nose! I play this way because I find it to be fun. I'm the first to admit I'm not a real diety player.

It's not about criticizing the strategy. It's just that OP really wants to force it to work under standard settings and we're trying to explain why this is not gonna happen. There is nothing wrong with these settings if you're enjoying them. I know from personal experience how fun such games are.

 

[RealHuhn]

You can use Honor for a very alternative strategy as well: Stagnating culture in the early game.

Honor left side doesn't give any cultural bonuses apart from killing barbs, so with good timing, you can actually open the Patronage tree or Commerce tree as your 4th policy and finish those trees a lot faster because social policy costs are still very low.

Maritime CSs can "replace" the Tradition bonus, for example, and give you a science boost on top of that. The bonus does come a bit later though. Your early game will be kinda weak.
Or early commerce finisher (it's possible around turn 160 or so with this strategy, not sure) can set you up for a ridiculous late game war with 3 gold per trading post and rushbuying discounts.
Certain civs can really benefit from the Patronage route, for example Siam or Sweden.

It's kinda hard to get the timings right and too many barbs can prevent you from being able to stagnate culture. Also, you must not build monuments and tile aquisition will be non-existant in early game.
When you can pull it off, it's a nice alternative though. Honor left side is always useful and Patronage/Commerce trees are better than Tradition/Liberty in the long run.

 

[Elz Majesto]

Since the OP wants to make honor work for him, may I suggest you use Monty?

Their UA already grants an Honor opener for ALL units, and when you take Honor as an opener every barbarian you kill nets you 2x Culture!
I tried this on 2/2 games (no reloads or restart) to very effective ends (On King however, so feel free to use this on your own risk).
If you open honor with Monty, and go for the left side first (15% Melee production and a GG) it works synergistic with your UU and allows you to pump out a couple extra JW to go and culture harvest barb camps, and get the experience needed for a mass conquest.

Since on Immortal and Deity you get unit swarmed, the JW ua to gain some health from kills will prolong their use (especially with IRON) and with CoBows you can get a lot farther then you think.

Also with Professional Army (or is it the finisher?) you get the added ability of gold and culture for each unit killed, which on Deity and Immortal can make a bigger difference then on lower levels.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

It's kinda hard to get the timings right and too many barbs can prevent you from being able to stagnate culture. Also, you must not build monuments and tile aquisition will be non-existant in early game.
When you can pull it off, it's a nice alternative though. Honor left side is always useful and Patronage/Commerce trees are better than Tradition/Liberty in the long run.

Have you tried this strategy with the Americans? The discounted tiles might help a lot. In some ways I like the quick policies from Honor opener + Tradition, but you're right, I think, that the later policies are even better than the early ones, which is why hardly anybody except the AI goes Tradition/Liberty. Anyway, that's an interesting approach, thanks.

It's not about criticizing the strategy. It's just that OP really wants to force it to work under standard settings and we're trying to explain why this is not gonna happen.

That's cool, but I have two things for you, Pilgrim.

1. I have a name and it's not Opie
2. I'm not forcing anything

I currently plan to try straight Honor on a standard speed small map. If that doesn't work, I'll try something else. I hope it's OK with you that I don't just take your word for everything and try a few things. I say "plan" because I've been playing Tropico more than Civ the last couple nights.

Since the OP wants to make honor work for him, may I suggest you use Monty?

(...)

Also with Professional Army (or is it the finisher?) you get the added ability of gold and culture for each unit killed, which on Deity and Immortal can make a bigger difference then on lower levels.

Good point about Monty, one of the first Civs I tried when messing with Honor. JWs might be strong enough to delay Bronze Working, too, if the map provides some handy jungle. I'd like to avoid BW until after the second city is built or captured and has a library. My early research is annoyingly slow as with aggressive strategies. I currently like China, though, because I haven't played them much, the bonus to generals, the ranged UU, and the slight gold bonus to libraries, which I'm building anyway. Incidentally, it's the finisher that grants gold for each destroyed enemy unit.

...Raging barbs slow down the AI a little and you cultivate much more culture...

Happy to answer questions so fire away.

Cheers,

Hi. I like the Raging Barbarian setting in general, it just makes the early game more interesting, although scouting is tougher, especially without the Honor opener.

Anyway, my questions are pretty simple, what Civs do you like for straight Honor, what's the story with your promotion plan (specifically, are you putting Cover just on your spears and pikes or on ranged as well), is an early war against a CS advisable, how do you handle the economic burden of so many units early on, do you settle any cities, how many do you puppet, how many do you raze.

 

[RealHuhn]

Have you tried this strategy with the Americans? The discounted tiles might help a lot. In some ways I like the quick policies from Honor opener + Tradition, but you're right, I think, that the later policies are even better than the early ones, which is why hardly anybody except the AI goes Tradition/Liberty. Anyway, that's an interesting approach, thanks.

I've tried it and it's useful. But Siam and Sweden are definately better for fast patronage strategies.

Played a game today as Sweden and I managed to start Patronage as my 4th policy (early Theology beeline with fast 2-city NC) and finished the tree at turn 135. That's very early. Honor left side helped me to defend against three aggressive neighbours and I could gift a bunch of great generals to nearby city states.
An early religious ally helped me to get a dominant religion. I also had two cultural allies (right after opening Patronage) and one militaristic CS.

Science was actually nearly doubled when I reached that scholarship policy (can't remember the exact name -> beakers from CSs). My science rate was very close to a usual 4-city- Tradition start but with the added benefit of the CS bonuses.

I won a diplomatic victory at turn 260, standard speed, and I definately wouldn't have survived the triple DOW without my experienced units, thanks to double XP from the Honor tree and the early general.

This was on Immortal. Very viable strategy.

 

[Syailendra]

the only cit works with honor is germany, others, meh, you'd better take liberty, or tradition.
Even with the germs, you'll need a good luck, that you must converted your first 3 barb camps. And do it fast, as you must conquer at least a capital before the owner reach clasical era, otherwise your army of brutes will be annihilated. Build order is warrior, warrior, worker, settler, monument. Skip worker, and switch in monument if you have a possible worker steal from a cs. Beeline to iron working, and you must find a 6iron tile, settle on top of it, you must already conquer an ai by this time, or you won't have any gold to upgrade your brutes into swords. Keeps marching as fast as you can. If at one time you are out of momentum, then you are not gonna win this game
Thats too much of musts and ifs to say that it is a viable strategy, but if you insist you can try it, i've won a game on small immortal map, other settings is standard.

 

[Matthew.]

Basically this: You pick what policies you need. If you are playing a cooked game, you don't need Aristocracy, Aesthetics, and and whatever else standard tricks. I'd argue this is also true on standard/standard when doing timed pushes with something like Keshiks/Camels.

I won't argue that Honor is a strong tree, because it isn't. But I think some are giving too much credit to Tradition for all situations. Play on higher levels has more to do with how you move through the tech tree, city location/population, and how you use early hammers. Hell, you should be hitting those key medieval military techs at about the same time Tradition is finishing, so the growth/aqueduct bonus, which is a huge part of why Tradition is so great, isn't even being used.

Of course the counter-argument to this is that full Honor still falls short when compared to Liberty. I'd rather do something like a Liberty rush to NC, then drop additional cities while bee-lining for those key medieval military techs. If you want to make Honor work in that situation you can do something like Liberty up to free settler, then work on Honor. Oracle after NC, if there is time, would help cover the additional policies.

But like Pilgrim said, the problem is full Liberty works as is, but you need to go out of your way to make Honor work.

 

[iconocast]

the only cit works with honor is germany, others, meh, .....

Russia (is the best honour civ imo)

Greece and Sweden. use the CS bonuses to make up for whatever ur deficient in, Greece is especially good at bullying as he recovers twice as fast.

Aztec's as there floating gardens give u a bonus to grow already letting u focus on war

i want to say Dido/Carthage. simply because of the bounes she gets to production and growth ( if she gets fish ). and also because quins and elephants are insanely good. but i find i always end up going liberty.

danes