Recon units too powerful?

[Wodan]

This could go into the Feedback thread but to me it's a loaded topic and might spawn a lot of discussion.

Here's my feeling, that I've had for a while, but I haven't tried to articulate it. Basically, the game is incredibly weighted toward Recon units, I don't know why anyone would ever do anything except beeline them, and use them almost to exclusion.

Here's my current game: Recon units gave me about +15 in each city, upwards of +50 in each city, they let me ignore ships (and, furthermore, ignore Astronomy) to colonize islands, gave me airlifts, let me ignore a trait (with instant +30 in each city), and more. It'd probably take me an hour to catalog all the bonuses.

Why is this not overpowered?

At least, maybe we should give melee units, mounted units, and/or archer units some big bonus against recon units, so that at least we try to have a rock/paper/scissors going on.

 

[Pohlmann]

what?

 

[isthmus]

Woah, that's a lot of bonuses, I wasn't aware that this was possible from just the units themselves, or is this the whole recon tech tree in general? I've never been able to create anything like this in any of my games.
I always thought that the recon line was actually underpowered, given that they can't use metals, can't pillage and don't have access to the city raider promos (and also an innate -20% city attack). The recon tech tree is also quite expensive too. The fact that the animal faction has been given a major boost in RiFE gives them a more important role because they have combat bonuses against them.

EDIT: also, how is it possible to ignore astronomy for effective water combat in mid-late game?

 

[VSPavlov]

Woah, that's a lot of bonuses, I wasn't aware that this was possible from just the units themselves, or is this the whole recon tech tree in general? I've never been able to create anything like this in any of my games.
I always thought that the recon line was actually underpowered, given that they can't use metals, can't pillage and don't have access to the city raider promos (and also an innate -20% city attack). The recon tech tree is also quite expensive too. The fact that the animal faction has been given a major boost in RiFE gives them a more important role because they have combat bonuses against them.

EDIT: also, how is it possible to ignore astronomy for effective water combat in mid-late game?

I believe, that's not from units, but from the animals, they've captured)

 

[odalrick]

I'm guessing he's captured a lot of animals for water combat (Bear and Hippogriff), happiness (various cages) and silk (Maskerade generates and )

Attributing all that to Recon rather than diligent work and favourable maps is a bit iffy.

 

[GIR]

with recon u can capture animals and with animals u can build stuff in cities...
he's kind of right with his point

edit:
that sux - ninjad again...

 

[Pohlmann]

this is just theorycraft.

at the moment simply anything can be seen as overpowered because the ai is no challenge in every situation.
also: why build recon and capture units if you can build melee and siege and defeat civilizations?
animals dont grant health and health aswell as production are the limiting factors of city growth. why do i need +15 happiness anyway?
most cities wont ever grow beyond size 20 so this is just overkill

 

[Valkrionn]

Animals will have a new use next version, rather than just being used for cages... Should help with the situation you described. I'm also thinking of an anti-recon promotion.

 

[isthmus]

I'm guessing he's captured a lot of animals for water combat (Bear and Hippogriff), happiness (various cages) and silk (Maskerade generates and )

Attributing all that to Recon rather than diligent work and favourable maps is a bit iffy.

This is why I havn't been able to do this in any of my games - it must take SO much effort to get that many animals for every city plus enough animals to create a large impact on water.

I think that on its own this is a good combo, but with the amount of time needed to actually do this, I'd expect you to be in a game winning position - you could have spammed melee and got yourself a combat victory by then.

Animals will have a new use next version, rather than just being used for cages... Should help with the situation you described. I'm also thinking of an anti-recon promotion.

I thought that the fact that recon don't have a hard counter is what keeps them in use vs melee units, if metals are taken into account the recon equivalent of any tier melee unit will have the lower strength.

 

[Valkrionn]

Recon are getting an extra unit, and likely getting a resource which makes them stronger (Hemlock, poison strength weapon effect)... They should be fine, especially if the counter is where the mounted counter is.

 

[Sarisin]

I think the recon units are fairly balanced now in the game EXCEPT for certain civs like d'Tesh and Svartalfar. Maybe the Giants too.

One thing that will be very interesting when the new version comes out is to see not only the attaboys for the new features, improvements, and fixes, but also the "damn, I miss that" as well.

 

[Wodan]

I'm guessing he's captured a lot of animals for water combat (Bear and Hippogriff), happiness (various cages) and silk (Maskerade generates and )

Attributing all that to Recon rather than diligent work and favourable maps is a bit iffy.

It takes diligent work yes, but all it takes is a couple of hunters/rangers out in the wild harvesting the bounty. So it's not like it takes a huge amount of resources.

It's not difficult at all to have a steady stream of lions, tigers and bears (oh my!) heading back to your empire. Many of them will spawn others if you use them in battle, also.

Hippogriffs are aerial transports capable of crossing ocean with move 4. Why bother with ships? They also transport unescorted settlers over land because they can drop the settler, who can build a city instantaneously without fearing animals.

Your extra hippogriffs can go into Cages to give airlift capability anywhere in your empire.

A spider cage in each city, with Masquerade, will net a huge bonus of commerce and culture, in every city.

New cities get a Masquerade wagon, animals, and a priest to pop all the buildings immediately. Instant REX with over 20 commerce in a size 1 city. There's no limit to the REX... it becomes a brain dead game. Just REX the entire map, send Masquerade with each settler.

And, if you go to war, you have several 150+XP Rangers/Beastmasters which can lay the smack down without effort.

The three wild great beasts (Acheron, King kong and the orangutan) are no problem at all to capture. And you can get the imprisoned Angel as well. (Sorry, I don't remember the names.)

I'm also thinking of an anti-recon promotion.

This would help a bit, if it's available early, and the AI uses it.

 

[odalrick]

It takes diligent work yes, but all it takes is a couple of hunters/rangers out in the wild harvesting the bounty. So it's not like it takes a huge amount of resources.

I remain unconvinced. I still think you have very favourable maps. I don't get that many animals.

Anyway, most of those issues are being addressed.

 

[inuyashasama]

I don't see many hippogriffs in my games, mostly barbarian type animals like mino etc. Are you guys playing with animal invasion on? It's enabled by default.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I honestly wouldn't mind savagely nerfing recon units(other than assassins and shadows) against everything except animals and barbarians. The AI spams hunters (for example) to the point of absurdity. I've always felt that it would make more sense for military units to be used for military things.

 

[Valkrionn]

They probably will be somewhat, if just by nerfing the hunter and adding the Tracker.

 

[Pohlmann]

in my recent wildmana games i realized that recon, cavalry and disciple units are somewhat superior to normal melee troops and archers and this is kind of problematic.
if you have 3 or 4 adepts and entropy mana then all metal troops are way weaker than the non-metal ones in terms of strength as rust simply removes them all ignoring the fact that they also are better in other categories by default (withdrawal / movement / bonusdamag / defensive strikes etc)

 

[Wodan]

I remain unconvinced. I still think you have very favourable maps. I don't get that many animals.

Did you read the part where I said I send Hunters/Rangers out across the map? Early on, yes you can get a limited number of animals but you also have a limited number of cities, so it works out.

A ranger riding a strong hippogriff can easily scour the entire planet, including islands, getting a huge number of animals.

Do you disband caves, nest, and dens? I leave them intact.

And two of the more powerful mechanics I'm talking about use Spiders and Hippogriffs only. Both of them make more if you keep 2-3 of them around and eat a bunch of goblins. It's no problem at all to take 1 spider and turn it into a lot more spiders.

Plus, it's very useful having a couple of level 10+ nonaligned spiders to harrass your enemies. I didn't even mention that but that's a huge benefit as well.

Bottom line: Bears are important because they give free happy and culture (no Carnival needed), and come early in the game. Lions, Tigers, Gorillas, and Wolves less important, they're more icing on the cake. If you can get all of them of course you can get the wonder that gives yet more happiness.

So, I'd say, bears, spiders, and hippogriffs are the key animals.

 

[Wodan]

in my recent wildmana games i realized that recon, cavalry and disciple units are somewhat superior to normal melee troops and archers and this is kind of problematic.
if you have 3 or 4 adepts and entropy mana then all metal troops are way weaker than the non-metal ones in terms of strength as rust simply removes them all ignoring the fact that they also are better in other categories by default (withdrawal / movement / bonusdamag / defensive strikes etc)

Agreed; in my mind (given equal experience levels) melee troops should be able to pwn recon in all cases, melee should pwn archers on attack but take heavy damage if defending vs archers, should win against mounted on attack (though mounted should have some defensive withdrawal capability) but get pwned if attacked, etc.

 

[odalrick]

Did you read the part where I said I send Hunters/Rangers out across the map?

No. Did you miss the part where I said "very favourable maps"?

Hunters can capture a few animals, but by the time I have Rangers there are so few animals around that taking Subdue Animal is almost pointless.

A ranger riding a strong hippogriff can easily scour the entire planet, including islands, getting a huge number of animals.

I'm lucky if I encounter one Hippogriff in the game. And usually that one Hippogriff comes early and loiters outside my capital; ready to pick off any workers that try to improve the land.

Do you disband caves, nest, and dens? I leave them intact.

Of course. The AI enemies, however, are smart enough to raze them. ("Smart" because they cant use the animals, but I can.)

And two of the more powerful mechanics I'm talking about use Spiders and Hippogriffs only. Both of them make more if you keep 2-3 of them around and eat a bunch of goblins. It's no problem at all to take 1 spider and turn it into a lot more spiders.

Barbarian spawns peter out once I get enough spiders to eat them. Enemy civs kill unsupported spiders, requiring war to get them reproducing. And considering how weak the AI is at warfare, I don't really need good units to beat them.

Plus, it's very useful having a couple of level 10+ nonaligned spiders to harrass your enemies. I didn't even mention that but that's a huge benefit as well.

In my experience, a "couple" of unsupported spiders can manage to be a nuisance for a while, until the AI randomly moves in a scout and they are massacred by a stack of 40 champions.

Bottom line: Bears are important because they give free happy and culture (no Carnival needed), and come early in the game. Lions, Tigers, Gorillas, and Wolves less important, they're more icing on the cake. If you can get all of them of course you can get the wonder that gives yet more happiness.

I like bears. They spawn early enough to be useful, are strong enough to survive the ineffective flailing of the AI and sometimes manage to carve out a spawning ground.

Spiders are also quite reliable, but hard to get in the quantities you imply.

Other than that, relying on capturing anything is foolhardy.

So, I'd say, bears, spiders, and hippogriffs are the key animals.

Then where did you get the 15 figure from? Bear, Spider, Silk is three. Does the hippogriff give happiness? Even with all the cages, 15 sounds like a lot.

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Much of this depends on the map. On the kind of maps I play, animals are a sort of optional extra. Your maps obviously favour animals.