Religion Expanded [LONG]

[konradcabral]

1) Very little random chance
2) Not being the state religion
3) Atheist or Secular civics rise the chance
4) State Church civic rise the chance of not-state religions fade away
5) Some techs rise the chance
6) Inquisition

If a religion has no cities it is "obsolete" or "extinct". Excluding the beginning of its expansion, of course. Maybe turning the random chance on after X (3 for small maps) cities with the religion and Y (2 for small maps) leaders conversions.

This would open a reasonable space for a confortable and not game-breaking addition of many more religions, like in Rapture, don't you think?

EDIT: I forgot to say: Secular is very weak in RoM. In my last game, all states were religious until 2100. We should make it better and the religious civics and buildings less attractive through time and techs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sure, but what are the criteria for fading religions?

And that is the $64k question. I would not want my state religion to fade away just because it was the first one founded for instance. And just because the Holy Shrine has not yet been built is not good enough either because GP can be rare and you can't choose which ones you get .

 

[konradcabral]

And that is the $64k question. I would not want my state religion to fade away just because it was the first one founded for instance. And just because the Holy Shrine has not yet been built is not good enough either because GP can be rare and you can't choose which ones you get .

7) Buildings decrease the chance of its religion fading away and increases of others religions.
8) Holy Shrines has twice this effect.

 

[Dharmaserf]

I could see this... something akin to how religion spreads now. Make it a spectrum as opposed to just having religion spread as it does now.

1) Very little random chance

I wonder about this. I like it, but then how does that work with how religion also spreads? Perhaps we need a formula. At a certain point (not a point in time, but based on certain conditions) a religion spreads or fades. I like the idea of figuring out these factors. History can be a guide here, I think.

2) Not being the state religion

In some places in history this played a factor, as in how Buddhism died out in India. Other factors for that were a) some persecution (by Islam), b) losing state sponsorship (economic base), c) losing its social place (Islamic merchants basically took their place), d) its ideas becoming absorbed into Hinduism, and perhaps it becoming obsolete? b and c, and potentially a point to a top-down effect. But, in China, not ever having been a state religion there, Buddhism was always quite popular. The thing I see more important than something being a state religion, is actually whether or not it had state economic support: here building temples and monasteries were important, as well as the state plundering monasteries. While there were two direct persecutions of Buddhism in China (for economic reasons, monasteries were fabulous rich and the state was in debt), Buddhism bounced right back afterwards. One probably reason for the popularity of Islam is its state support (but, unlike say Buddhism, Islam explicitly conceives of itself as having political and social aspects to it).

3) Atheist or Secular civics rise the chance

Absolutely. Although, Mark Juergensmeyer has argued that the rise of religion and fundamentalism is actually a response to secularism. He argues in his Terror in the Mind of God that most terrorism is against the secular state and many of his interviews with fundamentalists show that they respect other religions, but deride secularism. On the other hand, there was a decline of traditional religion in the industrialized world because of secularism in the mid-50s to late 80s. So, maybe for vanilla ROM a decrease in religion with secularism or atheism, and for ROM revolutions those civics potentially leading to religious instability?

4) State Church civic rise the chance of not-state religions fade away

Sure. See my comments on #2 above. I think Marxist analysis does explain a lot by focusing on the economic basis of change.

5) Some techs rise the chance

Like what? Scientific Method or something? Or military techs for Jainism? Or how about the increase of Buddhism and Hinduism in North America with late capitalism. They are money makers. The exact same is happening in Korea with Christianity. The increasing popularity in those new religions (in NA and Korea) is due to them being seen as new, rational, dynamic religions as opposed to the corrupt, superstitious, and static old religion.

6) Inquisition

Direct persecution is effective to a certain degree, but sometimes not. Aside from the actual inquisition, which I know little about, The Cultural Revolution is a perfect example. 700,000 monks killed, most forcibly defrocked. Institutional Daoism, which was on its last legs in the 19th century, was wiped out. And yet, Buddhism has bounced back in China even more than Confucianism and Daoism. Of course, this is also due to economic and PR reasons. Buddhist heritage sites make money. Perhaps this it due to the global popularity of Buddhism.

7) Buildings decrease the chance of its religion fading away and increases of others religions.
8) Holy Shrines has twice this effect.

In terms of modelling history, I actually think this may be the biggest factor. It could model state support, even if the religion isn't a state religion. Where non-State religions flourish was where there was still state support.

I would add:

9) Global spread of the religion decreases fade chance, localization increases fade chance
10) whether one has taken one of the civics like fundamentalism or state church or something, should decrease the chance of the state religion fading later.
11) how many other civs have the religion as a state religion could play a factor, increasing spread with more, increasing the fade if none.
12) I don't think we really know exactly why some religion or ideology becomes more popular. We have ideas. I think there should be some randomness to this all. Think of a slider with fading on one end and spreading on another. I think every 10 turns this slider could move left, right, or stay the same randomly for each religion. Sometimes, no matter what you do, a religion spreads. Sometimes, however much you want to keep a religion, it fades (ala North America and Korea example above). It makes sense that this would also get more volatile in the modern period, where the rate of social change increases.
13) How long a religion has been in a city should have an effect. Those places where Buddhism and Islam were the first religions in a place are for the most part still Buddhist and Muslim.
14) The number of religions in a city should increase the chance of it fading. The more religions there are, the more chance that syncretism happens and one gets absorbed into another (like Buddhism in India). Or perhaps, thinking of it like there are only so many people for so many beliefs. If this latter part is true then:
15) A higher city population should decrease the chance of a religion fading.

So, a final note, I think there should be considerations both civic-wide and city specific for the fading/spreading of religion.

 

[Dharmaserf]

I also think, in regards to religion fading, that if implement an atheism or secularism as a religion, that this might actually do most of the work for us, and we can spend less time on the premodern calculations for the fading of religion. Also:

16) Major socio-political and economic transformations (like a revolution due to changing more than one civic at a time) have had an impact on the spreading/fading of religions.

 

[Afforess]

Interesting points. As a modder however, I'd appreciate it if someone could distill these ideas into a cohesive formula for religion decay. Don't worry about the Civ aspects, I can handle most issues, just make a formula. You can use whatever you want to alter it, buildings, techs,... etc.

 

[civ_king]

lets have a concept such as Religion Influence, the closer it is to 0 the more it fades the higher the number the more spreadable/hardy it is, there would be a global and city counter, it would start at y (equal for all) what modifies it

1) temples (1x), monastery (1x), Cathedral (4x) this represents the ability to minister to the people, Cathedrals add far more, this works on both counters, with far more effect on city
2) Holy buildings MAJOR boost influence especially in city it is (maybe it works like a palace but upping the influence the closer the cities are?)
3) If state religion it becomes less likely to fade because of active support
4) The more civs have as state religion the greater the influence (civics can influence)
5) more religions in a city the more likely it is to fade (lower numbers) however population would run counter to this, in a metropolis all religions could exist
6) a fluctuation in the number every so often, more likely for small changes than big ones
7) Atheism/Secularism decrease the number, Atheism more so
8) some techs increase or decrease
9) inquisition, an inquisition in this case would spend turns in the city and it would decrease numbers, you could bunch up inquisitioners to root it out in a city faster
10) the more mainstream the more the influence


hope that condenses it better

 

[johny smith]

Well guys I saw this thread, and I always feel like I am banging my head against a wall when reading in Civ about religions. I do not think that my idea was the all perfect idea. But I have a system working on to fade away based on the era and civics used. For example if you would select paganism old aka pagan religions was not fade away in your empire. Like say you are Japan and your state religion is Shinto well matching a civic to the type of religion would preserve it. You always get a bonus to preserve your state religion, but if you swap out Shinto to Buddhism then Shinto quickly fades away.

Now with this example that is not really accurate. Shinto and Buddhism are intertwined. But anyway I do have a model. And if you drop millions of religions you need some system to balance them to me.

AAranda had once thing in total agreement with me. That was that other Civs like in Africa, and Americas and etc were under represented. Now I disagreed with his model of linking certain geographic features to these religions in promotions for example, but still a much better idea than to have them all the same neverless. And course the troubling aspect that you have to research a religion that was around in many cases so early that it predates the techs in the game.

Instead of me repeating my idea to audience tired of hearing it. I will just make sure the one clear point I wanted to make. Hellenism, Kemetism or whatever are new age names for these. They are just that they can not be accurate. The Greeks and Egyptians borrowed gods from one another. They did not have some official religion called Olympian or Hellenism, Egyptian or whatever. It was all about freedom to worship all of the gods. Some were converted to attributes of another some were not.

The defining point to me with religions being spread are if they really were spread or not. The Greeks did not bring all of there beliefs to other cultures. There was no conversion of another civilization to a Hellenism religion. There was Greek gods brought though to other cultures and worshiped. I think that is defining point. Christianity did not have a nationality for example after the split from Judaism. Well anyway point I am trying to make there is a large differences between the idea of spreading.

Instead of writing pages of the same thing I said before. I will only try to add one concrete statement here about what I have read. Techs do not mean anything with religions. Civ4's tech tree is completely ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the real timeline of invention. The only way to make religion I think work accurately is to redo the tech tree to correspond to the actual time of religions. There is no way of saying one religion was really an advancement over the other. But the one thing that is true there was an evolution of religion. There is a real timeline for it, and civ really blows in that department. Buddha did actually live on a certain date.

Anyway I do not want to repeat things that no one is interested in. Kemetism being spread just like Islam was is just stupid. Egyptians believe they were the gods of Egypt not China.

Buddhism for example was not always liked by the Chinese elite. The only way to represent syncretism I think is by creating another religion representing the syncretism. For example Shinto/Buddhism but that would be a lot of religions. But then that could bring up the question of Christian syncretism as well. Like it or not there are tons of aka old pagan beliefs in it, and varies by region. Anyway I probably offered worthless insight.

If you want to get what I was thinking more just look at Rapture. The tech tree I am working on is huge. But I specifically wanted to give time for the religions before Zoro and Judaism some time. Classic Hinduism or Buddhism are not older than Zoro or Judaism. And Zoro or Judaism should not really appear till 1000 BC. Buddha around 500 BC. Confucius around 500 BC and etc. Well I may feel the wrath of Sid damnation, but you never are going to get a whale out of a fish.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

...
The Greeks and Egyptians borrowed gods from one another. They did not have some official religion called Olympian or Hellenism, Egyptian or whatever. It was all about freedom to worship all of the gods. Some were converted to attributes of another some were not....

Actually it was worse than that. Each tribe/town/city had its own deities. As tribes/cities became closer in culture if not distance their deities merged. Eventually along came a king with an agena who sorted stuff out - one of the pharoes of Egypt suposedly got rid of the god of the just turning him in to the god of evil so that the god of "might is right" would be king . Later when two cultures met they would say that your god x is our god y but yours has much more fun or exotic rituals so we will do those.

 

[konradcabral]

Interesting points. As a modder however, I'd appreciate it if someone could distill these ideas into a cohesive formula for religion decay. Don't worry about the Civ aspects, I can handle most issues, just make a formula. You can use whatever you want to alter it, buildings, techs,... etc.

I'll do it. I'll try to prepare a complete formula for you translate to code, based in the variables exposed in this thread. Is that OK? What could help me is the formula of religion spreading, do you have it available? On a side request, could you also give me the current formula for inflation?

@johny_smith
I didn't get your point very well, you seem to be too much worried about strict religious realism. I do not agree, although I need realism in Civ. For me, Civ doesn't have to be a exact copy of history, with things happening in the same way. It has to be a logical and coherent simulation of history, and I think it meets this purpose at some level. You don't need to bang your head about Civ religions and tech, we are trying to improve it inch by inch, in our way. Where can I find an updated and detailed description of Rapture? I would like to understand more deeply your opinions.

 

[Dharmaserf]

Instead of writing pages of the same thing I said before. I will only try to add one concrete statement here about what I have read. Techs do not mean anything with religions. Civ4's tech tree is completely ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the real timeline of invention. The only way to make religion I think work accurately is to redo the tech tree to correspond to the actual time of religions. There is no way of saying one religion was really an advancement over the other. But the one thing that is true there was an evolution of religion. There is a real timeline for it, and civ really blows in that department. Buddha did actually live on a certain date.

The problem with this is that it makes it seem arbitrary, as in these figures just popped out at these times for no reason. In fact, there are many reasons for these religions popping up at the time they do in their context. For Buddhism and Jainism they arose in a period of great social transformation and questioning, precipitated by new technological advances, shifts in political organization, and increased urbanization. For Christianity, it came about during a time that could be considered the Ancient equivalent of the 60s. Most religions come about at times of social change. Often this was associated with technological advances. Urbanization happened at the same time in Greece and India, but Buddhism could never have came up in Greece. There was no Vedic religious mainstream with which to set itself apart. So, I don't think the tech-tree model is that inaccurate in theory. On the other hand, there are so many factors involved that it necessarily has to be general for gameplay reasons.

 

[Dharmaserf]

lets have a concept such as Religion Influence, the closer it is to 0 the more it fades the higher the number the more spreadable/hardy it is, there would be a global and city counter, it would start at y (equal for all) what modifies it

1) temples (1x), monastery (1x), Cathedral (4x) this represents the ability to minister to the people, Cathedrals add far more, this works on both counters, with far more effect on city
2) Holy buildings MAJOR boost influence especially in city it is (maybe it works like a palace but upping the influence the closer the cities are?)
3) If state religion it becomes less likely to fade because of active support
4) The more civs have as state religion the greater the influence (civics can influence)
5) more religions in a city the more likely it is to fade (lower numbers) however population would run counter to this, in a metropolis all religions could exist
6) a fluctuation in the number every so often, more likely for small changes than big ones
7) Atheism/Secularism decrease the number, Atheism more so
8) some techs increase or decrease
9) inquisition, an inquisition in this case would spend turns in the city and it would decrease numbers, you could bunch up inquisitioners to root it out in a city faster
10) the more mainstream the more the influence


hope that condenses it better

Ok, I like where this is going. Here are my thoughts.

The base integer is 0, which means no spread and no fade. Negative integers increases the chance of the fading of a religion, Positive integers increase the chance of spreading of religion.

Two religious spread integer matrices are necessary, one for the civilization level, one for each city. Spreading or fading is always calculated at the city level. For each religion each civ has a Civ Religion Rate (CVR) calculated each turn, and this gets applied to each city's City Fade/Spread Rate(CFR).

Civilization factors
1. There is a base -2 per ten turns for a religion/civilization.
2. Having more than three cities of the religion in your civ increases the civ religion rate (CVR) by +1 for every two cities over 3 (including 3 cities). So, 5 cities gives you +2.
3. [Was temples and monasteries--moved this to the CFR
4. A Holy Shrine increases the rate by +5
5. Having the Holy city increases the rate by +3
6. For each other religion in your civilization decrease the rate by a geometric order: -(2^n).
7. For each other religion with more than 3 cities decrease the rate by -1 for every 3 cities.
8. USing the global religion percentage rate, and 10% as 0, any percentage of global spread incrementally give -1 and anything above 10% give +1.
9. If it is your state religion, add a +25% bonus to 2 above.
10. If it is not your state religion, there is a -25% penalty to 2 above.
11. Double the bonus to 9 and 10 if you have had fundamentalism (or other similar civ--i forget them off the top of my head--I don't ever use them) and that as state religion in the last 50 turns. Double the penalty for the same if the religion was not the state religion during the last 50 turns of fundamentalism or fanaticism or wev.
12. Secular - decrease all positive integers by 10% after all calculations are done, or increase negative integers by 10%.
13. Atheist - For every 20 turns atheist, decrease the CVR by -5.
14. Some sort of tech neg or positive.

Once all these calculations are done, you will have a positive or negative integer for each religion per civ that then gets applied to each city. The City fade/spread rate (CFR) will be based on this for each religion. Every turn, and I don't know what would be a good percentage here, make the calculation: If the integer is negative and the religion doesn't exist in the city, there is no chance of spreading automatically (except with missionaries--chance affected somehow by this integer in a simple calculation). If the CFR is negative and the religion is present, each turn there is a chance of fading depending on the negative integer. Reverse this exactly for positive integers and religion spreading.

CFR factors for each city:
A. For each religion beyond 2 in a city, take away -1 to the CFR
B. For each building of that religion, increase rate by +1 (holy city and shrine calculated globally already)
C. IF holy city, the integer is always 0 for CFR
D. Certain buildings will give positive or negative impacts on CFR.

Ok, how is that for a start? I'm sure there are other calculations, factors, etc. But as a model, how does this work? What other factors can contribute?

 

[Afforess]

Ok, I like where this is going. Here are my thoughts.

The base integer is 0, which means no spread and no fade. Negative integers increases the chance of the fading of a religion, Positive integers increase the chance of spreading of religion.

Two religious spread integer matrices are necessary, one for the civilization level, one for each city. Spreading or fading is always calculated at the city level. For each religion each civ has a Civ Religion Rate (CVR) calculated each turn, and this gets applied to each city's City Fade/Spread Rate(CFR).

Civilization factors
1. There is a base -2 per ten turns for a religion/civilization.
2. Having more than three cities of the religion in your civ increases the civ religion rate (CVR) by +1 for every two cities over 3 (including 3 cities). So, 5 cities gives you +2.
3. [Was temples and monasteries--moved this to the CFR
4. A Holy Shrine increases the rate by +5
5. Having the Holy city increases the rate by +3
6. For each other religion in your civilization decrease the rate by a geometric order: -(2^n).
7. For each other religion with more than 3 cities decrease the rate by -1 for every 3 cities.
8. USing the global religion percentage rate, and 10% as 0, any percentage of global spread incrementally give -1 and anything above 10% give +1.
9. If it is your state religion, add a +25% bonus to 2 above.
10. If it is not your state religion, there is a -25% penalty to 2 above.
11. Double the bonus to 9 and 10 if you have had fundamentalism (or other similar civ--i forget them off the top of my head--I don't ever use them) and that as state religion in the last 50 turns. Double the penalty for the same if the religion was not the state religion during the last 50 turns of fundamentalism or fanaticism or wev.
12. Secular - decrease all positive integers by 10% after all calculations are done, or increase negative integers by 10%.
13. Atheist - For every 20 turns atheist, decrease the CVR by -5.
14. Some sort of tech neg or positive.

Once all these calculations are done, you will have a positive or negative integer for each religion per civ that then gets applied to each city. The City fade/spread rate (CFR) will be based on this for each religion. Every turn, and I don't know what would be a good percentage here, make the calculation: If the integer is negative and the religion doesn't exist in the city, there is no chance of spreading automatically (except with missionaries--chance affected somehow by this integer in a simple calculation). If the CFR is negative and the religion is present, each turn there is a chance of fading depending on the negative integer. Reverse this exactly for positive integers and religion spreading.

CFR factors for each city:
A. For each religion beyond 2 in a city, take away -1 to the CFR
B. For each building of that religion, increase rate by +1 (holy city and shrine calculated globally already)
C. IF holy city, the integer is always 0 for CFR
D. Certain buildings will give positive or negative impacts on CFR.

Ok, how is that for a start? I'm sure there are other calculations, factors, etc. But as a model, how does this work? What other factors can contribute?

That seems like a pretty good layout. It's a simple task to have a civilization & city wide religion spread rate.

A few questions though,

1.) how does the religion that fades away get picked?
2.) Does each religion have its own spread and fade rate, or is the rate a general rate?
3.) Is there anything the AI needs to know?

 

[johny smith]

Well I can I am going to merge "WoC Lite Rapture" into "RevDCM". It has this for civilizations beginning with religions, and buildings can found religions. I think that would help on removal of the need of some techs if it is wanted.

This is in the CIV4CivilizationInfos.

		<CivilizationInfo>
			<Type>CIVILIZATION_ARABIA</Type>
			<PaganReligion>RELIGION_MESOPOTAMIAN</PaganReligion>
		</CivilizationInfo>

And this for example in Civ4BuildingInfos.

<FoundsReligion>RELIGION_APU_ILLAPU</FoundsReligion>

This is what it has for xml for religion decay.

	<ReligionInfos>
		<ReligionInfo>
			<Type>RELIGION_APU_ILLAPU</Type>
			<bIsPagan>1</bIsPagan>
			<ParentReligion>NONE</ParentReligion>
			<SpreadEras>
				<SpreadEra>ERA_ANCIENT</SpreadEra>
				<SpreadEra>ERA_CLASSICAL</SpreadEra>
			</SpreadEras>
			<KeepEras>	
				<KeepEra>ERA_MEDIEVAL</KeepEra>
			</KeepEras>
			<DecayEras>
				<DecayEra>ERA_RENAISSANCE</DecayEra>
				<DecayEra>ERA_MODERN</DecayEra>
				<DecayEra>ERA_FUTURE</DecayEra>
			</DecayEras>
			<SpreadCivics>
				<SpreadCivic>CIVIC_PAGANISM</SpreadCivic>
			</SpreadCivics>
			<KeepCivics>
				<KeepCivic>CIVIC_PACIFISM</KeepCivic>
				<KeepCivic>CIVIC_FREE_RELIGION</KeepCivic>
			</KeepCivics>
			<DecayCivics>
				<DecayCivic>CIVIC_ORGANIZED_RELIGION</DecayCivic>
				<DecayCivic>CIVIC_THEOCRACY</DecayCivic>
			</DecayCivics>
		</ReligionInfo>

But I am sure there are better ways.

The Rapture project area is here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353

More detail. I do not know where to begin. Maybe here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8091942&postcount=1

The spiritual commerce is in but I have not adjusted it really for it yet.

The techs imo should be in some orderly hierarchy of how it evolved. For example Astika for classic Hinduism, and Nastika for Jainism and Buddhism. That is what I mean about timeline. Where as anyone could discover them, but it is not just Buddhism first with learning to meditate anyway so early in the game. Just some logical religion tech tree. I am pretty sure you guys are set on your ways of not changing that.

I dislike the very idea of religions attached to cultures only(like Greeks)beginning based on a tech that can be researched by anyone, but hey it is your mod. Buddhism may of began in the Vedic civilization, but it does not mean it was intended to only Indians unlike the Greek mythology. Hinduism and Judaism though are not so firm based as Buddhism and the others on the idea of spreading outside of the original culture as well though.

Anyway maybe the merge would be of some use. I usually pop in and out of here every 6 months after reading some similar ideas that never come to fruition. Well I hope you guys get something done. I think I am more of a nuisance posting in these threads.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

....
I dislike the very idea of religions attached to cultures only(like Greeks)beginning based on a tech that can be researched by anyone, but hey it is your mod. Buddhism may of began in the Vedic civilization, but it does not mean it was intended to only Indians unlike the Greek mythology. Hinduism and Judaism though are not so firm based as Buddhism and the others on the idea of spreading outside of the original culture as well though.

...

(Pagen religions are defined somewhere in Civ as a religion which is not one of those represented in the game )

If you really wanted it there is a way to have a civ or group of civs be the only ones to be able to found a specific type of pagan religion. It is based on the civ specific tech tree mod. For example if you want three early religions proto-Helenic, proto-Celt and proto-Scandic you can create different versions of Mysticism. Each has the same as the current Mysticism but also has a first founds one of the religions. Eg North European Mysticism, Mid European Mysticism and South European Mysticism. Then you assign the civs to each religion group you want. The example is probably too low a level to be useful.

Another alternate, which would need to be coded, is for the first to discover mysticism gets a pagan religion then the next gets a different pagan religion until all have their own unique cultural religion. You can then build on that base for how the religions evolve.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well I can I am going to merge "WoC Lite Rapture" into "RevDCM". It has this for civilizations beginning with religions, and buildings can found religions. I think that would help on removal of the need of some techs if it is wanted.

This is in the CIV4CivilizationInfos.

		<CivilizationInfo>
			<Type>CIVILIZATION_ARABIA</Type>
			<PaganReligion>RELIGION_MESOPOTAMIAN</PaganReligion>
		</CivilizationInfo>

And this for example in Civ4BuildingInfos.

<FoundsReligion>RELIGION_APU_ILLAPU</FoundsReligion>

This is what it has for xml for religion decay.

	<ReligionInfos>
		<ReligionInfo>
			<Type>RELIGION_APU_ILLAPU</Type>
			<bIsPagan>1</bIsPagan>
			<ParentReligion>NONE</ParentReligion>
			<SpreadEras>
				<SpreadEra>ERA_ANCIENT</SpreadEra>
				<SpreadEra>ERA_CLASSICAL</SpreadEra>
			</SpreadEras>
			<KeepEras>	
				<KeepEra>ERA_MEDIEVAL</KeepEra>
			</KeepEras>
			<DecayEras>
				<DecayEra>ERA_RENAISSANCE</DecayEra>
				<DecayEra>ERA_MODERN</DecayEra>
				<DecayEra>ERA_FUTURE</DecayEra>
			</DecayEras>
			<SpreadCivics>
				<SpreadCivic>CIVIC_PAGANISM</SpreadCivic>
			</SpreadCivics>
			<KeepCivics>
				<KeepCivic>CIVIC_PACIFISM</KeepCivic>
				<KeepCivic>CIVIC_FREE_RELIGION</KeepCivic>
			</KeepCivics>
			<DecayCivics>
				<DecayCivic>CIVIC_ORGANIZED_RELIGION</DecayCivic>
				<DecayCivic>CIVIC_THEOCRACY</DecayCivic>
			</DecayCivics>
		</ReligionInfo>

In many ways I like this idea over the straight formula idea. I like having many religions available in my cities and I would like to be able to encourage my cities to have them all. This way I could encourage it with the civics I choose eg free church or secularism with emphasis on my state religion.

On the formula I am assuming that the numbers for the religions start at zero when the religion is founded. As a programmer it is ammasing what can happen if you don't make sure we know what the base stuff is

Edit BTW I want both

 

[Talin2009]

While it would be interesting seeing many different eastern religions, i would rather like to see different branches of Christianity implemented, such as Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant churches. Also - while the Holy Wars addon is somewhat unbalanced taken fact its single religion having such units, if different churches would add more unique military oriented buildings/wonders and units (at approximately same tech time range) it would make religion wars theme much more appealing.

 

[johny smith]

While it would be interesting seeing many different eastern religions, i would rather like to see different branches of Christianity implemented, such as Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant churches. Also - while the Holy Wars addon is somewhat unbalanced taken fact its single religion having such units, if different churches would add more unique military oriented buildings/wonders and units (at approximately same tech time range) it would make religion wars theme much more appealing.

I have 5 Christian denominations in Rapture, but in order to balance things I added denominations to all of the religions. You can see the list in my project area. I do have the units and buildings for them as well as movies for the shrines.

Jewish
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325607

Christian
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325608

Muslim
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325609

Hindu
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325610

Buddhism
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325611

Chinese
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325614

Iranian
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325616

Anyway I wanted multiple Apostolic Palaces but never got it done. Like one for each group, and let these Palaces owners act as a Pope or religious leader. Then the owner could decide on holy wars, or trade embargoes and etc. Or maybe labeling one denomination in the group as blasphemy.

 

[Talin2009]

Very interesting and well thought-out mod. Do you have any plans to make it RoM and/or AND compatible? I mean revolutions issue and non-state religions instability penalties.

 

[Antmanbrooks]

This sounds great and I'm excited by the prospect of having realistic religious spread and fade.

One of the problems I have with the way religion spreads is when a religion pops up miles away from it's "base". This is acceptable if you have missionaries to spread the religion but is unrealistic when a religion automatically spreads to a city with no contact with other cities that have the religion present.

I don't accept the trade route or open borders way of spreading religion. Take the Silk Road as an example of this... Silk was traded all the way from China to Italy but you didn't see Italians converting to Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism.

For example I have a game based on the Giant Earth Map 200 BC scenario and Confuscianism or Buddhism routinely spreads to the Celtic lands despite the Confucian/Buddhist states having no contact with the Celts. I can only put this down to divine intervention!