Religion increases GPR 100%!

[TerraHero]

So, what good is paganism?

 

[oxonian2001]

No good. It provides no specific benefits or demerits; it's just the basic religion civic everyone with which everyone starts. You'll probably want to move away from paganism as soon as you can, i.e., as soon as you research more advanced religion civics and have a religion.

I'm not sure why everyone here is so convinced that religion in Europe hindered scientific progress in the medieval period. If anything, the Catholic Church was a major force for preserving and encouraging scientific knowledge. Monks preserved many of the ancient writings and the tradition of scholarship, for example. There's also a school of thought that says monotheistic religions, by sharply dividing the world into "natural" realms (which operate according to predictable laws) and "supernatural" realms (which are the province of the deity, but circumscribed in scope), actually helped create the conceptual underpinnings necessary for scientific research to take place at all.

It seems the bad reputation of religion comes from two experiences, those of Copernicus and Galileo. What most people forget, however, is that Copernicus' theory was inferior to that of Ptolmey's in the most important scientific criterion: Copernicus couldn't predict the motion of the planets very well. Only when Kepler realized that the planets moved in elliptical, not circular, orbits did the heliocentric theory gain predictive power.

Likewise, one of Galileo's greatest patrons was the Pope himself. Galileo also managed to acquire a number of enemies in the astronomic community, however: it was these people who pressured the Church into scquelching him.

Now, from the 19th century on, many religious figures have criticized scientific research or theories. But that's not how it used to be. Probably the No. 1 thing holding research back in the medieval era wasn't the Church, but rather the widespread presumption that Aristotle had already discovered everything of note. The Renaissance really got underway when people started questioning that assumption.

 

[Pragmatic]

I thought the primary source of inspiration for the Italian Renaissance, at least, was the translated texts of the ancient Greeks coming out of the Middle East?

 

[viper9527]

Middle Ages was a thousand-year period , but science made little progress,not until the 12th and 13th century did the real science start. I dont think astrology and alchemy are real science,
It was true that the clergymen were the best educated men in that period they just made some paper work since most of the men couldnt write but little real science did they made. The contribution they made I think it was in the culture, this is a period in which Latin ,classical , Hebrew and Gothic heritages merged, a blending of different ideas.

However , Christianity untied the Europe and that led to the Crusades which brought a closer contact with the more civilized the East. Such knowledge as Arabic numerals ,algebra were introduced to the West. That resulted in renewing people interests in learning and invention.

I would definitely choose a religon in the game which I think it will make my people meeker.

 

[oxonian2001]

Well, whole careers have been devoted to arguing about the origins of the various Renaissances.

Certainly, that's one cause for a lot of the renewed interest in the art and culture of the ancient world (and the inspiration for further progress). I was speaking specifically about scientific progress, however. For example, Aristotle more or less announced, on the basis of abstract reasoning, that there were four elements: fire, earth, air, and water, and most substances contained a mixture of these elements (not that he was the first to conclude this). For millennia, people just took Aristotle's word for it, and it wasn't the Church who told them to do so.

 

[Solver]

Hmm, there's an interesting here.

Organized Religion, Theocracy and Pacifism all have bonuses that apply to cities with state religion. Pacifism's bonus is doubled Great People birth rate. But that applies to state religion cities only if you're running the Pacifism civic, not inherently to having a state religion.

 

[Melendwyr]

Hmm, there's an interesting here.

Organized Religion, Theocracy and Pacifism all have bonuses that apply to cities with state religion. Pacifism's bonus is doubled Great People birth rate. But that applies to state religion cities only if you're running the Pacifism civic, not inherently to having a state religion.

Yes. I think I conflated a post of yours with a post by a person right above it -- right after I misunderstood that post.

Sorry about that.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

So, what good is paganism?

One Possible benefit might be a Low Maintenance (if the other Civics have High or Medium Maintenances)

 

[Martinus]

Well, whole careers have been devoted to arguing about the origins of the various Renaissances.

Certainly, that's one cause for a lot of the renewed interest in the art and culture of the ancient world (and the inspiration for further progress). I was speaking specifically about scientific progress, however. For example, Aristotle more or less announced, on the basis of abstract reasoning, that there were four elements: fire, earth, air, and water, and most substances contained a mixture of these elements (not that he was the first to conclude this). For millennia, people just took Aristotle's word for it, and it wasn't the Church who told them to do so.

Well, considering that this church burned Copernicus' works and killed Giordano Bruno because they argued a non-aristotelian cosmology, I think your statement is false.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Middle Ages was a thousand-year period , but science made little progress,not until the 12th and 13th century did the real science start. I dont think astrology and alchemy are real science,
It was true that the clergymen were the best educated men in that period they just made some paper work since most of the men couldnt write but little real science did they made. The contribution they made I think it was in the culture, this is a period in which Latin ,classical , Hebrew and Gothic heritages merged, a blending of different ideas.

However , Christianity untied the Europe and that led to the Crusades which brought a closer contact with the more civilized the East. Such knowledge as Arabic numerals ,algebra were introduced to the West. That resulted in renewing people interests in learning and invention.

I would definitely choose a religon in the game which I think it will make my people meeker.

Well Science didn't really exist until the time of Galileo, in terms of experimentation, etc. Before then all you had were natural philosophers who said what sounded good about the way the world worked (Aristotle) and 'technicians' who were the closest to scientists (blacksmiths, farmers, architects/masons, etc.) ie every so often they might try something new and if it worked, it worked and they might keep on doing it.

Science comes when both experimentation and forming hypothesis were united... and was pretty much nonexistent until the Modern period. (there were a few occasional scientists, but a true scientific community never really seems to have developed anywhere)

Now the Middle Ages did see a drop off (somewhat) in natural philosophy, combination of unifying philosophy of the church and the fact that civilization had collapsed to the point where there wasn't much free time to philosophize. but 'Technological advancement' continued in agriculture, weaponry, etc. The things that allowed an eventual return to philosophizing (only this time uniting it with experimentation)

 

[apatheist]

The greatness there was inspiring a very fractured Europe to pull together for one great cause - the Free-ing of the Holy City of Jerusalem.

I suggest reading a history of the Crusades to find out how much Europe really did "pull together."

Conversely, the Medieval Islamic world's open society helped the flow of ideas, goods, invention etc. throughout the Middle East, but their wealth and opened-arms were too enticing for the Mongol Horde...

The Mongol Horde that damaged, but did not break, the Islamic world. It may have broken Arab leadership of the Islamic world, but the Islamic world recovered and did quite well for some time after that. The capture of Constantinople was 2 centuries after the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols, and the final siege of Vienna 2 centuries after that.

There's also a school of thought that says monotheistic religions, by sharply dividing the world into "natural" realms (which operate according to predictable laws) and "supernatural" realms (which are the province of the deity, but circumscribed in scope), actually helped create the conceptual underpinnings necessary for scientific research to take place at all.

Wow. That's a completely new idea to me, but it really makes sense. Can you suggest some additional reading on the subject?

I dont think astrology and alchemy are real science,

No, but they were the seeds of it. Alchemy was about experimentation. Astrology had to do with rigorously tracking a natural phenomenon and making predictions of its future behavior.

Such knowledge as Arabic numerals ,algebra were introduced to the West. That resulted in renewing people interests in learning and invention.

Nitpick. Indian numerals.

I would definitely choose a religon in the game which I think it will make my people meeker.

If religions in the game had such effects, such a religion should have the effect of reducing the chance of rebellion/unhappiness/disobedience, but also reducing the strength of your military (since your people are meek) and possibly reducing the growth of your culture, as oppression tends to make people less expressive (by definition).

For example, Aristotle more or less announced, on the basis of abstract reasoning, that there were four elements: fire, earth, air, and water

You are quite kind to Aristotle to call this reasoning.

 

[CdGGambit]

The crusades are an EXTREMELY bad example to say how christianity did something good. It started as a plea by the Byzantines to help fight the Turks but ended up just being an excuse that European Monarchs used to gain money and power.

That said, Religion has almost always contributed to science. Everyone always remembers the Astronomical incidents from the 17th century and modern day struggle of Evolution and Stem Cell Research as how religion has failed us, but we can't see that good of the past.

But what we forget is that world religions have always contributed to the most basic scientific requirement: Literacy. The Protestant Reform (Gutenburg's Bible, Martin Luther and so forth) is probably the single greatest leap forward into Europe's the modern world because of the change it brought to the average person and giving them the knowledge of how to read and write.

 

[tristangreer]

Hey, here's an idea. If you want religion to have benefits or detriments to the civilizations, MOD THEM IN. Problem solved.

 

[Crayton]

Some Crusader Kings even sacked Constantinople; but, its the thought that counts. My reasoning:

Crusades>>>Reconquista>>>Exploration>>>Colonization>>>Imperialism>>>Global European Hegemony (until World Wars). If it wasn't for those Popes, this Game would be designed by Arabs, Chinese, or Indians and not by the West. Good or Bad???
Actually, how many of the programmers ARE descendants of Europeans?

 

[thehouse]

while "Science" was behind in Europe. (Science at the time simply meant writtings explaining natural phenomena which were almost always wrong) Europe was still advancing technological in by the 11-15th was way head in some feilds. Mainly Mining, Casting, Gunpowder corning and making, printing, mapmaking, Fortification, military training, and maybe most importantly selective animal breeding.

 

[Khaim]

Most of which China already had at that time. The one thing Europe had that China didn't was competition, which is why one stagnated and one took over the world.

 

[wit>trope]

What you can do is remain paganastic forever as a challenge.

Play on Deity with the house rule that you have to stay pagan. (Kind of like a one city challenge house rule)

Could be fun.

 

[thehouse]

Europes mining and casting has always been the most advanced. Deep shaft mining was basically unheard of outside Europe that is why europe had way more metals then anyone else. Plus Europe seige guns were always the best thanks to a long bell making tradition. The turks hired europeans to make all their cannons. Also Europe was able to cast bronze print settings.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What you can do is remain paganastic forever as a challenge.

Play on Deity with the house rule that you have to stay pagan. (Kind of like a one city challenge house rule)

Could be fun.

I remember doing Despotism wins in Civ 2 as a challenge (fun to have your massive unproductive armies sweeping the Earth)

That would be an interesting challenge, the 'barbarian win' no civics changes

 

[thorsr]

I agree today its a problem rather then solution
but they did some advances,sociologically speaking and sometimes even scientifical(just remember the tech tree,from theology comes education that leads to all kinds of anti religious stuff.
and as for its uses in the game,you may consider napoleon s word on it
the men without faith are not to be governed,they are to be shot.
cannot forget the usesof religion in manipulating society
ps:ironicaly the ads down here are all about religion,from mormon dating sites to true religion jeans.LOL