Religions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Realism Invictus' started by Houman, Sep 9, 2006.

  1. Ankenaton

    Ankenaton "The Heretic"

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    @ LeperColony

    I agree with you on the schisms between branches of religion (e.g. Christian Schism: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant; Muslim Schism: Shiite, Shia, Alawite, Druze, Sufism; Jewish Schism: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform; Hindu Schism: Hinduism, Sikhism, Janism, Buddhism; etc.), would be a wonderful change to the basic religious system if it can be modeled and coded effectively. Many of the great conflicts were often fought between sects within a particular religion. This would definitely be a subtler implementation rather than "I love you" or "I hate you" as presented within the current system. However I do not believe that we have to totally scrap the current system. Perhaps we can graft the religious civics options that you write about onto the current and/or tweaked version of the religious system. This will be an interesting undertaking if we committ ourselves to it. ;)
     
  2. JahtheIII

    JahtheIII Chieftain

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    More comments from my full TR 2.13 game...


    I was wondering about the dominant religion feature, and was surprised that even after changing my civic to Free Religion, that the dominant religion could still kick other religions out of a city.

    1. This really makes Free Religion less valuable, because hardly any cities will have multiple religions in them once a "dominant" one gets inside your borders.

    2. It also seems to go against the "Realism" principle, in that states that do have a system of "Free Religion" have all sorts of religions inside their borders.


    I know you guys are tinkering with this aspect of the mod still, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a Free Religion civic that your Civ won't obey.:)
     
  3. Houman

    Houman TR Team Leader

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    There is no more Local or Dominant religion in the current Warlord TR Beta 2 release. We control the spread rate by different means again.
     
  4. crazyllamabear

    crazyllamabear Chieftain

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    Flatery: Hokay, so as a mod newbie let me say that the package you've put together is the best I've played thusfar. Sevo's running a close 2nd with the added civics and all the bells & whistles, but TR 2.1.3 runs much more smoothly on my machine and has non-capped unit experience (what's the point of lvl 4 promotions if your units never get more than 17 exp?).

    Real ?: That being said, what is with the religions in this mod (Civilpedia runs a bit short here for the mod)? I am playing as China (Fin/Ind) and found Hinduism... I read that Judaism is only spread through state, but my Hindu missionary couldn't spread my religion to other Civs either? Any info as to how the religions are set up would be appreciated (spread % rate, # of missionaries allowed, non-state missionary spread even possible?).

    Thanks all. (Again, just incase warlords mod is different, playing the vanilla Civ v1.61 w/TR 2.1.3)

    P.S. Other subjects that I'd really like to see be included in civilpedia in future versions (though these I think I have been able to figure out through searching the forums): Inquisitor - how to use + effects of inquisition + if usuable against other civs (just plopping +2 :mad: to a opponents new city would be useful, religion or nay), Informant, and the Assassin/Ninja.
     
  5. jbolton0421

    jbolton0421 Chieftain

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    Much thought has gone into religion spread rates, missionaries, balancing bonuses, etc. I don't think we have talked about the "life of a church", (with apologies to my pastor). :religion:

    If a city has a non-state religion, how long does it stay there? If there is no inquisition, it will stay there forever, with it's builidings producing benefits to the city. Sounds like a nice tolerant, pluralistic, modern thought. Probably not "realism." Religions do rise and fall over time. I have seen religious symbols on cities 2,000 years after they were taken over by barbarians. There are true believers in every religion, but most people will do what they see most of the people around them doing.

    This mod already recognizes non-state neglect of holy shrines after 75 turns and they relocate to a hospitable coutry.

    Suggestion (numbers are negotiable):

    Religions would not decline if there is no state religion or Free Relgion is in effect.
    The process should be faster under Organized Religion and even faster under Theocracy/Barbarian Rule.

    After 75 turns of out-of-favor status, religious buildings must be rebuilt.
    After 150 turns of out-of-favor status, the religious buildings go away and so does the community (religious symbol taken from city graphic). Missionaries could re-establish it.
     
  6. Vertico

    Vertico Prince

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    jbolton0421 - I like your idea!
    but maybe to remove religions not automatically but after those period, there would be a certain chance to dissapear. So only luck will decide if religion survive out-of-favor status
     
  7. Anaztazioch

    Anaztazioch Hit in the head too much

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    But what if a non state religion has its temples build ? Will they die as well ?
     
  8. jbolton0421

    jbolton0421 Chieftain

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    I would think the temples go away too. The temple/monastary/cathederal themselves help/harm the city because adherents are following that religion. If the religion is no longer practiced in the city those buildings would fall into disrepair and no longer have an effect.

    Chance could be a part of whether or not a religion continues. I think the the chance would reduce over time (if it is still in a hostile environment).
     
  9. biggamer132

    biggamer132 King

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    The question I posted here is no longer applicable.
     
  10. catcall73

    catcall73 Chieftain

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    I think that Judaism is quite the underdog in TR.I understand the unhealthiness that pigs give,but it seems the only resource they like are fish.How about sheep?That said,I really like the added +/- that resources give with religions.
     
  11. Anaztazioch

    Anaztazioch Hit in the head too much

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    They give + from wheat.
    Also +20% trade yeald is quite high.
    Temple of Artmedis gives 100% and is 10 times more expensive and can be only one.
     
  12. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    Here's a copy of my original post (made in another thread) about what I felt were some good suggestions regarding an update for Islam, as well as the arguments and reasoning behind them.

    Important Suggestion to Houman/Mod Developers

    First off, I'm very excited about this mod, and happy that it has finally been released in a high quality Warlords version!

    There was one important suggestion I wanted to make, that I feel will greatly improve the historical accuracy of this mod.

    Islam has been given a disadvantage regarding it's trade routes (-20%). I realize that this was done to represent the Islamic prohibition on usury (earning of interest on money), but I feel that there is a better way to do this.

    Trade has been central to Islamic civilizations throughout their existence. Not only was it the source of wealth for countless Muslim nations, but it was also one of the largest reasons that the religion itself spread. Here are a few of many possible examples (excerpts in italics; from Wikipedia).

    The Mali Empire (Muslim):

    The Mali Empire flourished because of trade above all else. (...) Mansa Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the Old World's gold exported from mines in Bambuk and Boure.

    The Ottoman Empire:

    With the Ottomans blockading sea-lanes to the East and South, the European powers were driven to find another way to the ancient Silk and Spice routes, now under absolute Ottoman control.

    Islam in Indonesia and Malaysia:

    Islam was first brought to northern Sumatra (Indonesia) by Arab traders in the thirteenth century and had become Indonesia's dominant religion by the fifteenth century.

    Arab Malays (Melayu Arab) are referred to people with mixed Arab and Malay parentage. The history of Arab-Malay intermarriage goes back to around the fifteenth century with many Arab merchants and traders doing business and settling down in the Malay World after the Malaccan Raja Parameswara converted to Islam and changed his hereditary title to Sultan.


    Trans-Saharan Trade


    The earliest evidence for domesticated camels in the region dates from the third century. Used by the Berber people, they enabled more regular contact across the entire width of the Sahara, but regular trade routes did not develop until the beginnings of the Islamic conversion of West Africa in the seventh and eighth centuries. Two main trade routes developed. The first ran through the western desert from modern Morocco to the Niger Bend, the second from modern Tunisia to the Lake Chad area.


    Proposed Solution


    Instead of decreasing the income Islamic civilizations get from trade, I would propose we *increase* it. This would be more in line with history, and of course, more realistic. Rather than an actual increased amount earned from trade routes (such as +10%, +20% or whatever), I think that, cities with Muslim Temples should have +1 trade routes. This represents the impact of Arab/Muslim merchants and traders in these cities.

    To symbolize the impact of a lack of usury on Islamic civilizations' economies (and offset other Muslim Temple benefits), you could decrease the gold produced in cities with Islam if it is their State Religion. For example, all cities could have -10% or -20% gold. I suggest we limit gold instead of commerce because a large amount of commerce earnings go toward research, and the Islamic world made numerous advances in all areas of science (ie: mathematics, astronomy, accounting, medicine, etc.).

    I also think that the -5% production should be scrapped, and replaced by something else, but this is less important than the trade route part. Increasing the number of Islamic missionaries available at one time from 2 to 3 or 4 would also be more fitting, as Christianity and Islam are known to be the two big missionary religions (though Christianity can still have an advantage with 6 compared to 3/4 and Islamic missionaries would remain more expensive to produce).

    Summary and Suggested Profile for Islam
    (nothing totally set; completely open for discussion):

    Muslim Temple
    +1 (Trade Routes)
    -5% or -10% (Gold, not Commerce, ie: research is unaffected)
    Pig -1, -1
    Pig automatically gives +1 health, and -1 health simply removes that, rather than actually reducing health. Therefore, happiness should also be decreased, as having pig available for consumption would make the religiously devout unhappy.
    Wine -2
    Again, since wine automatically gives +1 happiness, happiness should not only be reduced to 0 but reduced by the presence of alcohol, which is clearly prohibited in Islam.

    The +1 from both Cow and Sheep can be scrapped in order to get rid of the -5% for production. Also, it is more realistic, as refusing to eat pork or drinking alcohol would not suddenly make eating more lamb or beef healthier.

    And lastly, as mentioned above, I suggest we increase the number of Islamic Missionaries controllable by a player at any time from 2 to 3 or 4.

    Please tell me what you all think about these suggestions (especially my core point about the importance of trade to Islamic civilizations throughout history!)

    Thanks for reading over my ideas :goodjob:!
     
  13. Anaztazioch

    Anaztazioch Hit in the head too much

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    Everyone interested in Religions in TR.
    This is not a religion mod, and religions often get people angry couse of inacurate adoption it to TR. The team wants to make minor changes as we see that Islam is disadvantaged.

    My idea is to dont make "temple" over influencive.

    Muslim Temple:
    +1 trade route, or +20% trade route yeld
    +10% maintanance, or -10% gold
    +1:( from wine
    +1 :unhealthiness: from pigs
    ( +1:) from building is gone)
    +1:health: (since Islam requires one to help poor in means available to him, there fore, by giving money, food, health care - not sure how its done in reality, need some help here)

    Muslim Monastary:
    +5% science (so building will give +15%)
    +1:( from wine
    +1:( from pigs (not sure here, selling pigs, through food to hearts and spread religion ?)

    Islam Cathedral: (?)
    +1 :)
    +4 :( with emancypation

    Mujahids:
    Since Jihad is more a persons will to stand and fight, maintanance should be gone from such units imo. This will allow player to have em more.
    Mujahids, as light cavalary will have its bonus vs heavy cavalary.

    Mujahid discussion in team has not yet started.


    Cristianity Changes:

    Temple:
    +5% :hammers:
    +1 :unhealthiness:
    Allows Crusader.
    -1% gold, or +2% maintanance

    Cristian Monastary:
    -5% :science: (so building will give +5% science, Europe was disadvantages in early middleages comparing to Islam)

    Christian Cathedral: (?)
    +5% :science: (before XIII centuary, there were the only places, where man could lear to write and read)

    I want to elaborate on those "simple" changes, before release.
    I have farer ideas about realigion system, but as i said, this is NOT a religion mod.
     
  14. Inverted

    Inverted Warlord

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    Actually the "centers" of science were the monasteries of certain orders and not the cathedrals. IMO cathedrals should get happiness bonuses as christanity in the middle ages was probabaly one of the most oppressive religion system in history. And considering that cathedrals were the centers of the formal religion that was pretty much against any scientific advance (just think about the "scientists" that got executed or exiled for their views) , it would be strange to give them science bonus.


    And have you though about maybe lowering the unhappiness on taoist temples? It cancels out so many luxury resources that if you are a well supplied empire you better not build those.
     
  15. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    For taoism, it's intentional. It can help you, it can hurt you. It is even worthy to spread Tao to some of your more well-stocked neighbors to hurt them... Sort of like Cult of Dragon in FfH - only more benefical for the owner of Holy City (money). Your best bet for Taoism is when you're poor; many other religions have their own synergies and antipathies - for example, an island nation with few neighbors will do extremely well with Judaism, while sticking to Judaism in a middle of a continent, surrounded by enemies will spell your doom.
     
  16. Anaztazioch

    Anaztazioch Hit in the head too much

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    so Manastary losses 5% :science: just need to know how to counter it. (still it gives +5% :science:, so its worth building one)
     
  17. Littlelisa

    Littlelisa Warlord

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    Ive had a few religious ideas after my latest game. thanks to many great prophets, i was able to found all religions but islam (no one founded it yet) super early, then use inquisitors to wipe out all but the Christian religion as the others had not spread past my neighbour (I burned his 3 religious cities down hehe).
    Leaving Christianity the only religious option for the other civs with me holding the Holy city, and we had only just dicovered iron.

    Couple suggestions -
    1) Perhaps make it so you cant remove a religion from the Holy city, you can stop or slow the spread of the religion but not wipe it out.

    2) If not perhaps when the religion has been wiped out fully from every city some other civ who has the correct research should re-discover the religion.

    3) Or perhaps only allow each civ to found 1 early religion - Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. So no matter how many of the techs a civ researches, they can only found one of these, but can research the later religions freely, Islam, Taoism and Christianity.

    Good you cant hang onto all the holy cities, but its possible to make sure there is no other holy city :mischief:
     
  18. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Basically, if you can pull such feats, haven't you already practically won the game? :D

    It is interesting, though, if the Holy Cities will respawn in some other civs later - as they should have that tendency. So if you played this game on, it is interesting to know how the Holy Cities behaved later.
     
  19. Littlelisa

    Littlelisa Warlord

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    Im playing on a Pangaea map as well, so its spreading nice. +45 gold a turn from holy city so far.

    I started with hindu holy city and even used a prophet for special building, the holy city jumped to my neighbour when i swapped to Christianity, but i went in and razed that city with my crusaders.


    I plan to keep playing this game, ill see what happens.

    But dont the holy cities only jump to another city with the religion? i sent out my inquisitors into open border civs to make sure they had no other religion. :lol:
     
  20. Vitez

    Vitez Chieftain

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    Make sure you use Wall Street nicely... it's a long time usually before you are able to build Wall Street and you have to use this time to spread, spread, spread your religion. Then you have lots of gold income in your Holy City and Wall Street... doubles that! One of my favourite combos :)
     

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