Berenthor
King
Okay that is fine with me. This is a fast way of finalizing discussions 
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Religions
- Thread starter Sifaus
- Start date
xmen510
Emperor
We can always try to implement more variety later if we chose.
So, Religions are finalized with three then. I will add it to the Finalized List.
xmen510
Emperor
So, how are we going to implement the spreading of religion. I think it should be enabled in some way, othersie you might just get an entire world of 1 Religion if it is founded too quickly.
We need to figue out a way to spread it to different cities intentionally, othersie you don't really have a choice in the matter and it can screw up your production based on religion.
Perhaps we could have an option available upon the Tech discovery you can then you can "Build" that particular Religion in your other cities. This way you can choose which Religion your Civ adhears to. Once you have built a Religion (Which you can only do if you adopt it) you cannot build another in that city. Also, if you Build a religion in that city, it expunges any other present religions.
That is just 1 idea. Let's her yours.
We need to figue out a way to spread it to different cities intentionally, othersie you don't really have a choice in the matter and it can screw up your production based on religion.
Perhaps we could have an option available upon the Tech discovery you can then you can "Build" that particular Religion in your other cities. This way you can choose which Religion your Civ adhears to. Once you have built a Religion (Which you can only do if you adopt it) you cannot build another in that city. Also, if you Build a religion in that city, it expunges any other present religions.
That is just 1 idea. Let's her yours.
Berenthor
King
I like that idea to use the religion as a "building" that can only be build if you have a certain religion as a state religion. Once you founded one religion you can't found another. For the building of a "building religion" and removing all others and making that city have a religion upon building that "building" is not difficult. I know how to do it, it is in python so no problems there.
We do have to see how you can change religion if you want another one if you can never get two religions in a city.
We do have to see how you can change religion if you want another one if you can never get two religions in a city.
xmen510
Emperor
I was thinking of Natural Spreading as well, however, with the removal of the Monastary we need some way to allow people to Chose their religion and if they want to spread it in their cities.
That is what I was concerned about.
That is what I was concerned about.
T_F
Reynardine the Great
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2007
- Messages
- 1,163
Hmmm.... I'm thinking something referencing Eru for the Good religion would be a better name than something referencing the Valar. I think it should reference the highest power that is revered, and pretty much any actual 'temple' that any Good civ built was to Eru, not any Vala.
Something like 'Eru Worship' or 'Worship of Eru' is good.
I like the idea of being able to 'build' a religion in your city.
Something like 'Eru Worship' or 'Worship of Eru' is good.
I like the idea of being able to 'build' a religion in your city.
xmen510
Emperor
I was thinking on how to spread Religion.
If we do put in the Temple, how about that you do not actually have the Religion until you build that Temple? (which is buildable upon Research of the relevant Religion). After you build the Temple (Which must be built in your Capital) you can convert to that Religion. Then the Religion begins to slowly passively spread in the world. You can however, upon converting to the Religion after building the First Temple, build Temples in all of your cities to Spread the Religion on your own without having to wait for the natural spreading of it. This way, we can eliminate the need for Missionaries and not have to worry about the Religion for some reason never spreading to some of your cities (that has happened to me).
* Note of why the First Temple should be built in your Capital. The reason I say this is because, the people of a Civilization usually followed the belief structure of its Ruling Classes. It was then spread thoughout the Empires by active movements started by them.
*Note regarding Temple building. I am not sure if we can code it in the way I have suggested (i.e. no active Religion until the First Temple being built and then spreading it by building other Temples). It is just an idea, and I will understand if it isn't possible, we can always come up with other ways of spreading it actively instead of passively. If you need other ideas let me know and I will post a few for you.
In regard to T_F's statements regarding Eru. We could rename it from Light of the Valar to Reverence of Eru Ilúvatar & The Valar.
If we do put in the Temple, how about that you do not actually have the Religion until you build that Temple? (which is buildable upon Research of the relevant Religion). After you build the Temple (Which must be built in your Capital) you can convert to that Religion. Then the Religion begins to slowly passively spread in the world. You can however, upon converting to the Religion after building the First Temple, build Temples in all of your cities to Spread the Religion on your own without having to wait for the natural spreading of it. This way, we can eliminate the need for Missionaries and not have to worry about the Religion for some reason never spreading to some of your cities (that has happened to me).
* Note of why the First Temple should be built in your Capital. The reason I say this is because, the people of a Civilization usually followed the belief structure of its Ruling Classes. It was then spread thoughout the Empires by active movements started by them.
*Note regarding Temple building. I am not sure if we can code it in the way I have suggested (i.e. no active Religion until the First Temple being built and then spreading it by building other Temples). It is just an idea, and I will understand if it isn't possible, we can always come up with other ways of spreading it actively instead of passively. If you need other ideas let me know and I will post a few for you.
In regard to T_F's statements regarding Eru. We could rename it from Light of the Valar to Reverence of Eru Ilúvatar & The Valar.
Would it be possible to get more then one religion in a city?
Would it be possible to remove a religion from a city?
How would one switch from one state religion to another?
Would you loose your religion if your alignment drops from Good to Neutral or rises from Evil to Neutral?
Also:
Why have buildings instead of missionaries? Now you have to spent hammers in a new town to get the religion, otherwise you could spent them in an old town, doing it much quicker.
Would it be possible to remove a religion from a city?
How would one switch from one state religion to another?
Would you loose your religion if your alignment drops from Good to Neutral or rises from Evil to Neutral?
Also:
Why have buildings instead of missionaries? Now you have to spent hammers in a new town to get the religion, otherwise you could spent them in an old town, doing it much quicker.
xmen510
Emperor
Right from the beginning, people didn't even want missionaries or buildings. What I offered was a compromise.
If you can think of another idea go right ahead and offer one. I'll be the first to admit that mine is not the most ideal. I also suggested including the Inquisitor which can only work within your own cities to remove a Religion.
And yes, I believe that if you are Evil you cannot be the Good Religion. If you are Good, you cannot be the Evil Religion. If you follow Aule you could be either Good/Neutral/Evil.
Spreading happens passively in that regard. Otherwise I don't know.
If you can think of another idea go right ahead and offer one. I'll be the first to admit that mine is not the most ideal. I also suggested including the Inquisitor which can only work within your own cities to remove a Religion.
And yes, I believe that if you are Evil you cannot be the Good Religion. If you are Good, you cannot be the Evil Religion. If you follow Aule you could be either Good/Neutral/Evil.
Spreading happens passively in that regard. Otherwise I don't know.
xmen510
Emperor
Like I said. It was earlier on when people were saying they didn't want buildings which ruled out the missionaries.
Another reason why I suggested dropping Religion as it really wasn't all that important in some ways.
Another reason why I suggested dropping Religion as it really wasn't all that important in some ways.
xmen510
Emperor
Okay, here is another idea.
Religions:
You may choose 1 after researching the proper Tech (Religion) and having the Corresponding Alignment.
Good/Neutral - Light of the Valar (Or whatever we choose to name it)
Good/Neutral - Runes of Aule
Evil - Worship of the Shadow
You only get Diplo bonuses and penalties for having a religion. You get no other Bonuses or Buildings. Once you choose a Religion you may build Missionaries to spread it. However, if a Civ has a Permanent Alignment Restriction apon it, you cannot spread a Religion of another Alignment to it. If you choose a corresponding Religion your Alignment will change. Thus if you chose to Worship the Shadow, your Alignment automatically becomes Evil. If you chose 1 of the other two, then your Alignment will be eith Neutral or Good - your choice.
ie. Vanyar will always and only have Light of the Valar. Shadow Civs will always and only have Worship of the Shadow.
Religions:
You may choose 1 after researching the proper Tech (Religion) and having the Corresponding Alignment.
Good/Neutral - Light of the Valar (Or whatever we choose to name it)
Good/Neutral - Runes of Aule
Evil - Worship of the Shadow
You only get Diplo bonuses and penalties for having a religion. You get no other Bonuses or Buildings. Once you choose a Religion you may build Missionaries to spread it. However, if a Civ has a Permanent Alignment Restriction apon it, you cannot spread a Religion of another Alignment to it. If you choose a corresponding Religion your Alignment will change. Thus if you chose to Worship the Shadow, your Alignment automatically becomes Evil. If you chose 1 of the other two, then your Alignment will be eith Neutral or Good - your choice.
ie. Vanyar will always and only have Light of the Valar. Shadow Civs will always and only have Worship of the Shadow.
I was just asking questions to get the idea hammered out more completely, should have mentioned it in my post. Most questions apply to the new idea as well 
. The problem is, that I don't really have an idea myself of how to implement it, as it played such a minor role in Arda.
About the last idea: I like to have religion restricted to the alignment, but we don't have to implement changing the alignment of a civ when they adopt a religion (because they need to have the proper alignment before they can adopt it). Having the religion shift them more towards the ultimate good or evil (using broader alignment) is ok however.
. The problem is, that I don't really have an idea myself of how to implement it, as it played such a minor role in Arda.About the last idea: I like to have religion restricted to the alignment, but we don't have to implement changing the alignment of a civ when they adopt a religion (because they need to have the proper alignment before they can adopt it). Having the religion shift them more towards the ultimate good or evil (using broader alignment) is ok however.
xmen510
Emperor
Makes perfect sence. I overcomplicated the issue.
I want to pose a question for the group - if the only impact of religion is to impact diplomatic bonuses, is it worth implementing? Religions will have complexity to implement, and the 'law of parsimony' says that since we are designing a new game, with lots of stuff to worry about, does implementing a religious system only for a diplo bonus pass the work/reward trade-off? This result is especially true since we pretty much know how most Civ's will go anyway, should we just replace it with a Civ based diplo bonus?
Best wishes,
Breunor
Best wishes,
Breunor
xmen510
Emperor
You make another good argument to leave out Religions, at least in the first release. We will have Alignment modifiers still. Perhaps Religion should indeed be left until later. It would give us much more time to work out the system if we leave it until a later release.
What does everybody think?
What does everybody think?
Berenthor
King
I really don't know about the religions. Let me pose another question: when we don't implement the religions, how will we simulate the worship of the shadow and the spreading of that. As an example, what happened to the Numenoreans when they started falling under the shadow and building its temples.
Well let me come with a suggestion then:
How about drop the religions, except for the 'shadow-worshipping' (and rename Religion to shadow). Only the shadow-civs can research the tech, and they will be able to spread it with missionaries.(So you can only get it if you have OB with a Shadow civ or with a civ with 'shadow-worshipping' adopted). Shadow cities will start with the 'religion' when they are build.
If you have 'shadow-worshipping' in your city it will cause unhappiness, but you can purge it with a (expensive?) unit. Having 'shadow-worshipping' in a city also means that the Shadow has city visibility in that city (like in CIV vanilla).
If you have 'shadow-worshipping'in your city and have adopted it, you will receive bonusses, but there should be minusses as well (not sure exactly what this should entail).
Some things to clear stuff up:
- You need to be evil to adopt 'shadow-worshipping'
- You cannot build missionaries untill you have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'
- Only Shadow-civs can research the enabling tech.
- It will spread automatically to new cities from civs who have adopted 'shadow-worshipping', but will have to be spread by missionaries to existing cities and cities of civs who don't have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'.
- It can be purged by a unit which can only be build if you haven't adopted 'shadow-worshipping' and which needs a tech to be build.
- 'shadow-worshipping' in a city without adopting 'shadow-worshipping' as a 'religion' will cause unhappiness, so you can switch out of 'shadow-worshipping', but have to face a lot of unhappiness then.
- 'shadow-worshipping' gives you a big push on the evil slider, redeeming yourself by adopting no-state-religion will put you towards good again, but not as much as you went down upon adopting it in the first place.
- You automatically adopt no-state-religion if you become neutral while you have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'
- There should be civics that are available to anyone not running 'shadow-worshipping', to have some sort of balance mechanism for the benefits 'shadow-worshipping' provides.
- I would probably not have it impact diplo, other then affecting good/evil.
That's all I can think of for now.
How about drop the religions, except for the 'shadow-worshipping' (and rename Religion to shadow). Only the shadow-civs can research the tech, and they will be able to spread it with missionaries.(So you can only get it if you have OB with a Shadow civ or with a civ with 'shadow-worshipping' adopted). Shadow cities will start with the 'religion' when they are build.
If you have 'shadow-worshipping' in your city it will cause unhappiness, but you can purge it with a (expensive?) unit. Having 'shadow-worshipping' in a city also means that the Shadow has city visibility in that city (like in CIV vanilla).
If you have 'shadow-worshipping'in your city and have adopted it, you will receive bonusses, but there should be minusses as well (not sure exactly what this should entail).
Some things to clear stuff up:
- You need to be evil to adopt 'shadow-worshipping'
- You cannot build missionaries untill you have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'
- Only Shadow-civs can research the enabling tech.
- It will spread automatically to new cities from civs who have adopted 'shadow-worshipping', but will have to be spread by missionaries to existing cities and cities of civs who don't have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'.
- It can be purged by a unit which can only be build if you haven't adopted 'shadow-worshipping' and which needs a tech to be build.
- 'shadow-worshipping' in a city without adopting 'shadow-worshipping' as a 'religion' will cause unhappiness, so you can switch out of 'shadow-worshipping', but have to face a lot of unhappiness then.
- 'shadow-worshipping' gives you a big push on the evil slider, redeeming yourself by adopting no-state-religion will put you towards good again, but not as much as you went down upon adopting it in the first place.
- You automatically adopt no-state-religion if you become neutral while you have adopted 'shadow-worshipping'
- There should be civics that are available to anyone not running 'shadow-worshipping', to have some sort of balance mechanism for the benefits 'shadow-worshipping' provides.
- I would probably not have it impact diplo, other then affecting good/evil.
That's all I can think of for now.
xmen510
Emperor
Good suggestions. Maybe we could name the Unit to expell the Shadow: Light Bringer or something like that instead of Inquisitor.
When you get right down to it, unless you are a follower of Melkor/Morgoth or Sauron, then you do follow/believe in the rest of the Valar/Maiar/Eru. Just some are more closely attached to one over another, but there is no discord because of that. All are accepted as being equal. It is more the differences in the Politics/murder/etc. between kingdoms and if you follow the shadow or not as too why wars happen. It is not a Religious thing.
After all, most do not follow Sauron because he is a "God", but because they have the same goals as he does or are enslaved by him.
When you get right down to it, unless you are a follower of Melkor/Morgoth or Sauron, then you do follow/believe in the rest of the Valar/Maiar/Eru. Just some are more closely attached to one over another, but there is no discord because of that. All are accepted as being equal. It is more the differences in the Politics/murder/etc. between kingdoms and if you follow the shadow or not as too why wars happen. It is not a Religious thing.
After all, most do not follow Sauron because he is a "God", but because they have the same goals as he does or are enslaved by him.
