[NFP] Religious Victory EG Companion Thread

[Francel]

We finished!

48. Kongo/Mvemba a Nzinga (unranked)
47. Shaka/Zulu
46. Robert the Bruce/Scotland
45. Whilhelmina/Netherlands
44. Alexander/Macedonia
43. Suleiman/Ottomans
42. Poundmaker/Cree
41. Seondeok/Korea
40. Victoria/England
39. Eleanor/England
38. Kristina/Sweden
37. Gilgamesh/Sumeria
36. Eleanor/France
35. Teddy Roosevelt/America
34. Dido/Phoenicia
33. Lady Six Sky/Maya
32. Trajan/Rome
31. Frederick/Germany
30. Catherine/France
29. Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia
28. Qin Shi Huang/China
27. Cyrus/Persia
26. Tomyris/Scythia
25. Lautaro/Mapuche
24. Philip/Spain
23. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary
22. Wilfrid Laurier/Canada
21. John Curtain/Australia
20. Montezuma/Aztecs
19. Harald Hardrada/Norway
18. Pericles/Greece
17. Amanitore/Nubia
16. Cleopatra/Egypt
15. Jayavarman/Khmer
14. Pachacuti/Inca
13. Kupe/Maori
12. Gitarja/Indonesia
11. Gorgo/Greece
10. Genghis Khan/Mongolia
9. Tamar/Georgia
8. Pedro/Brazil
7. Jadwiga/Poland
6. Chandragupta/India
5. Mansa Musa/Mali
4. Gandhi/India
3. Saladin/Arabia
2. Hojo Tokimune/Japan
1. Peter/Russia

 

[lotrmith]

I think you are only partially right. If "kill religion founders" type of RV starts in medieval and because of that shouldn't be takebn as seriously as peaceful RV, so what Saladin does in top3, if all his bonuses come in medieval? Also note in medieval and late what really matters in religion games, is pure strength of apostles, and Sal doen't have it either?
And if you don't have stronger apostles post medieval, isn't killing religion founder easier and less resources consuming?

Sal is the only Civ who can get a positive ROI on any T3 religious building (beyond a single Mosque) in a fast RV, and that comes into play at Theology same time as you unlock Apostles.

 

[EmJayLambert]

This was fun to follow even if I came a little too late, and lack the indepth knowledge of most posters, to vote many times.

What will the next Elimination thread be?

 

[Francel]

I carried Josephias' work to its logical conclusion and got the following (some of my thoughts are in brackets):

Spoiler :

>28] 47. Shaka/Zulu (28) [large gap from Robert the Bruce, but trying to avoid single tier civs]
>17] 46. Robert the Bruce/Scotland (45)
>06] 45. Whilhelmina/Netherlands (51)
>03] 44. Alexander/Macedonia (54)
>01] 43. Suleiman/Ottomans (55)
>01] 42. Poundmaker/Cree (56) [large gap from Seondeok, suggests Poundmaker to Robert the Bruce single tier]
>16] 41. Seondeok/Korea (72)
>01] 40. Victoria/England (73)
>01] 39. Eleanor/England (74)
>06] 38. Kristina/Sweden (80)
>05] 37. Gilgamesh/Sumeria (85)
>07] 36. Eleanor/France (92)
>06] 35. Teddy Roosevelt/America (98)
>04] 34. Dido/Phoenicia (102)
>09] 33. Lady Six Sky/Maya (113)
>12] 32. Trajan/Rome (125) [large gap]
>01] 31. Frederick/Germany (126)
>03] 30. Catherine/France (129)
>13] 29. Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia (142) [large gap]
>15] 28. Qin Shi Huang/China (157) [large gap]
>02] 27. Cyrus/Persia (159)
>03] 26.Tomyris/Scythia (162)
>16] 25. Lautaro/Mapuche (178)
>11] 24. Philip/Spain (187) [Very small gaps between Philip and Cleopatra, suggests this should be single tier]
>04] 23. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary (191)
>04] 22. Wilfrid Laurier/Canada (195)
>04] 21. John Curtain/Australia (199)
>03] 20. Montezuma/Aztecs (212)
>04] 19. Harald Hardrada/Norway (216)
>01] 18. Pericles/Greece (217)
>05] 17. Amanitore/Nubia (222)
>04] 16. Cleopatra/Egypt (226)
>13] 15. Jayavarman/Khmer (239) [Possible cutoff B Tier]
>01] 14. Pachacuti/Inca (240)
>16] 13. Kupe/Maori (266)
>14] 12. Gitarja/Indonesia (280) [Possible cutoff A Tier]
>07] 11. Gorgo/Greece (287)
>04] 10. Genghis Khan/Mongolia (291)
>09] 9. Tamar/Georgia (300)
>06] 8. Pedro/Brazil (306)
>13] 7. Jadwiga/Poland (319) [Possible cutoff A Tier]
>08] 6. Chandragupta/India (327)
>14] 5. Mansa Musa/Mali (341)
>28] 4. Gandhi/India (369) [Largest gap - reasonable S Tier]
>3] 3. Saladin/Arabia (372)
>6] 2. Hojo Tokimune/Japan (378)
1. Peter/Russia

Notably, the largest gap falls between Gandhi and Mansa Musa. Thus, I would propose our S tier be Peter, Hojo, Saladin, and Gandhi.

Regarding A tier, possible cut offs might be Jadwiga (more overall tiers) or Gitarja (fewer overall tiers). Three seems a bit too few to me, so for now I'll run with this as A tier: Mansa Musa, Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Pedro, Tamar, Genghis Khan, Gorgo, Gitarja.

Next, Kupe could be his own tier, but Kupe is in my mind a bit of an anomaly since he was missing awhile, and I wouldn't want a single tier with just Kupe. Thus, B tier could be Kupe, Pachacuti, and Jayavarman.

C tier could be from Cleo --> Philip: Cleopatra, Amanitore, Pericles, Harald, Montezuma, John Curtain, Wilfrid Laurier, and Matthias Corvinus.

Lautaro could also be a tier, but again, to avoid single civ tiers, I would go D from Lautaro to Trajan: Lautaro, Tomyris, Cyrus, Qin Shi Huang, Bolivar, Catherine, Frederick, and Trajan

E then could be Lady Six Sky to Seondeok, leaving F as Poundmaker to Shaka, with a special last tier reserved for Kongo. Shaka could also be argued as his own tier, but again, avoiding one civ tiers except special case Kongo.

In summary, this would yield:

S: Peter, Hojo, Saladin, Gandhi
A: Mansa Musa, Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Pedro, Tamar, Genghis Khan, Gorgo, Gitarja
B: Kupe, Pachacuti, Jayavarman
C: Cleopatra, Amanitore, Pericles, Harald, Montezuma, John Curtain, Wilfrid Laurier, Matthias Corvinus, Philip
D: Lautaro, Tomyris, Cyrus, Qin Shi Huang, Bolivar, Catherine, Frederick,Trajan
E: Lady Six Sky, Dido, Teddy Roosevelt, Eleanor (France), Gilgamesh, Kristina, Eleanor (England), Victoria, Seondeok
F: Poundmaker, Suleiman, Alexander, Whilhelmina, Robert the Bruce, Shaka
FF: Kongo

Now, the tiers are a bit uneven. I propose Genghis, Gorgo, and Gitarja be moved from A to B. Rolling with this, I will generate and post a new tiermaker figure momentarily. Please share any objections you may have.

 

[Francel]

Here is the revised graphic:

 

[kryat]

The latest tiers seem reasonable to me. This is a great graphic. Once we have cultural victory, we can assemble a proper power ranking by taking some sort of average ranking on each list.

Such a list would probably exempt Ethiopia, Gran Columbia, and Maya since we don’t have rankings for them in all lists.

I would maybe suggest exempting Kongo from religion for such a list.

One possibility for a strength ranking would be to weight each leader’s ranking based on how common different victory types are, either by steam achievement data or from civfanatics polling, or both.

 

[Abaxial]

A last word on religious rock bands - I never said they were good, I was responding to another poster who said there were no new religious developments possible after apostles are unlocked, which is not strictly true.

 

[Kwami]

Just for the record, Carl has confirmed that Tomyris and Montezuma's lost religious combat strength is intentional, but a bug or oversight. So, those bonuses won't be coming back.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Carl has confirmed that Tomyris and Montezuma's lost religious combat strength is intentional, but a bug or oversight

I assume you mean NOT a bug or oversight

S: Peter, Hojo, Saladin, Gandhi
A: Mansa Musa, Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Pedro, Tamar, Genghis Khan, Gorgo, Gitarja
B: Kupe, Pachacuti, Jayavarman
C: Cleopatra, Amanitore, Pericles, Harald, Montezuma, John Curtain, Wilfrid Laurier, Matthias Corvinus, Philip
D: Lautaro, Tomyris, Cyrus, Qin Shi Huang, Bolivar, Catherine, Frederick,Trajan
E: Lady Six Sky, Dido, Teddy Roosevelt, Eleanor (France), Gilgamesh, Kristina, Eleanor (England), Victoria, Seondeok
F: Poundmaker, Suleiman, Alexander, Whilhelmina, Robert the Bruce, Shaka
FF: Kongo

Looks good except I would put Gandhi in the A tier (well I would put him lower than that but we have to follow the rules!!)

 

[Mahi]

RV is OK but it often turns into a micro managing hell if you didn't plan for RV from the beggining. Besides, I play on large maps and brining your religion to a new continent on a large map is not my best idea of fun. I usually enjoy it in the begginning but I get insane from all that unit management of all my "1 spread apostles" that I accumulate over time.
RV is fun in some scenarios but a real drag in others.

 

[lotrmith]

For anyone following this thread who is interested, I played a ton of Mali games and got a ridiculous record Turn 58 religious win on Terra.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...deity-religious-victory.649764/#post-15841380

 

[monikernemo]

For anyone following this thread who is interested, I played a ton of Mali games and got a ridiculous record Turn 58 religious win on Terra.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...deity-religious-victory.649764/#post-15841380

gg nice work, I dont think Peter can hit that kind of timing because he spawns off the edge of the map.

 

[lotrmith]

gg nice work, I dont think Peter can hit that kind of timing because he spawns off the edge of the map.

Thanks. Do take all speed run placements with a grain of salt. They often involve a lot of luck in start position and at various points throughout.

It certainly demonstrates Mali's power, which was my intention, but power is relative and multi-faceted. Pure speed is not how many people play (indeed I only found this challenge fun based on the discussion and elimination thread... it's not how I would want to play normally). I find Mali's true strength in their combination faith and gold economies which I like to leverage with Monumentality (and play for other win conditions), and that comes online in Classic and the payout is in Medieval+.

Plus when going for a straight speed challenge a lot of standard strategy and caution gets thrown to the wind for the purpose of getting a single outlier game with a record setting time. Under almost no other circumstances would I use that research/build order or go one-city, for example.

That's why "fastest" is only part of the equation, and I'm happy Mali made it to 5th place overcoming some adversity. Of course Peter and indeed Ghandi had worthy placements as well, Ghandi particularly given the extra missionary charges which make him competitive for speed (though that advantage falls away once Apostles come out, and I believe Mali's faith bank eclipses it both early and late).

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

For anyone following this thread who is interested, I played a ton of Mali games and got a ridiculous record Turn 58 religious win on Terra.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...deity-religious-victory.649764/#post-15841380

Wow, very impressive! I want to say that's the fastest deity RV time I've ever seen anyone post.