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[NFP] Religious Victory EG Companion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Francel, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    We finished!

    48. Kongo/Mvemba a Nzinga (unranked)
    47. Shaka/Zulu
    46. Robert the Bruce/Scotland
    45. Whilhelmina/Netherlands
    44. Alexander/Macedonia
    43. Suleiman/Ottomans
    42. Poundmaker/Cree
    41. Seondeok/Korea
    40. Victoria/England
    39. Eleanor/England
    38. Kristina/Sweden
    37. Gilgamesh/Sumeria
    36. Eleanor/France
    35. Teddy Roosevelt/America
    34. Dido/Phoenicia
    33. Lady Six Sky/Maya
    32. Trajan/Rome
    31. Frederick/Germany
    30. Catherine/France
    29. Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia
    28. Qin Shi Huang/China
    27. Cyrus/Persia
    26. Tomyris/Scythia
    25. Lautaro/Mapuche
    24. Philip/Spain
    23. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary
    22. Wilfrid Laurier/Canada
    21. John Curtain/Australia
    20. Montezuma/Aztecs
    19. Harald Hardrada/Norway
    18. Pericles/Greece
    17. Amanitore/Nubia
    16. Cleopatra/Egypt
    15. Jayavarman/Khmer
    14. Pachacuti/Inca
    13. Kupe/Maori
    12. Gitarja/Indonesia
    11. Gorgo/Greece
    10. Genghis Khan/Mongolia
    9. Tamar/Georgia
    8. Pedro/Brazil
    7. Jadwiga/Poland
    6. Chandragupta/India
    5. Mansa Musa/Mali
    4. Gandhi/India
    3. Saladin/Arabia
    2. Hojo Tokimune/Japan
    1. Peter/Russia
     
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  2. lotrmith

    lotrmith Prince

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    Sal is the only Civ who can get a positive ROI on any T3 religious building (beyond a single Mosque) in a fast RV, and that comes into play at Theology same time as you unlock Apostles.
     
  3. EmJayLambert

    EmJayLambert Chieftain

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    This was fun to follow even if I came a little too late, and lack the indepth knowledge of most posters, to vote many times.

    What will the next Elimination thread be?
     
  4. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    I carried Josephias' work to its logical conclusion and got the following (some of my thoughts are in brackets):

    Spoiler :

    >28] 47. Shaka/Zulu (28) [large gap from Robert the Bruce, but trying to avoid single tier civs]
    >17]
    46. Robert the Bruce/Scotland (45)
    >06] 45. Whilhelmina/Netherlands (51)
    >03] 44. Alexander/Macedonia (54)
    >01] 43. Suleiman/Ottomans (55)
    >01] 42. Poundmaker/Cree (56) [large gap from Seondeok, suggests Poundmaker to Robert the Bruce single tier]
    >16]
    41. Seondeok/Korea (72)
    >01] 40. Victoria/England (73)
    >01] 39. Eleanor/England (74)
    >06] 38. Kristina/Sweden (80)
    >05] 37. Gilgamesh/Sumeria (85)
    >07] 36. Eleanor/France (92)
    >06] 35. Teddy Roosevelt/America (98)
    >04] 34. Dido/Phoenicia (102)
    >09] 33. Lady Six Sky/Maya (113)
    >12] 32. Trajan/Rome (125) [large gap]
    >01] 31. Frederick/Germany (126)
    >03] 30. Catherine/France (129)
    >13] 29. Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia (142) [large gap]
    >15] 28. Qin Shi Huang/China (157) [large gap]
    >02] 27. Cyrus/Persia (159)
    >03] 26.Tomyris/Scythia (162)
    >16] 25. Lautaro/Mapuche (178)
    >11] 24. Philip/Spain (187) [Very small gaps between Philip and Cleopatra, suggests this should be single tier]
    >04]
    23. Matthias Corvinus/Hungary (191)
    >04] 22. Wilfrid Laurier/Canada (195)
    >04] 21. John Curtain/Australia (199)
    >03] 20. Montezuma/Aztecs (212)
    >04] 19. Harald Hardrada/Norway (216)
    >01] 18. Pericles/Greece (217)
    >05] 17. Amanitore/Nubia (222)
    >04] 16. Cleopatra/Egypt (226)
    >13] 15. Jayavarman/Khmer (239) [Possible cutoff B Tier]
    >01] 14. Pachacuti/Inca (240)
    >16] 13. Kupe/Maori (266)
    >14] 12. Gitarja/Indonesia (280) [Possible cutoff A Tier]
    >07] 11. Gorgo/Greece (287)
    >04] 10. Genghis Khan/Mongolia (291)
    >09] 9. Tamar/Georgia (300)
    >06] 8. Pedro/Brazil (306)
    >13] 7. Jadwiga/Poland (319) [Possible cutoff A Tier]
    >08] 6. Chandragupta/India (327)
    >14] 5. Mansa Musa/Mali (341)
    >28] 4. Gandhi/India (369) [Largest gap - reasonable S Tier]
    >3]
    3. Saladin/Arabia (372)
    >6] 2. Hojo Tokimune/Japan (378)
    1. Peter/Russia


    Notably, the largest gap falls between Gandhi and Mansa Musa. Thus, I would propose our S tier be Peter, Hojo, Saladin, and Gandhi.

    Regarding A tier, possible cut offs might be Jadwiga (more overall tiers) or Gitarja (fewer overall tiers). Three seems a bit too few to me, so for now I'll run with this as A tier: Mansa Musa, Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Pedro, Tamar, Genghis Khan, Gorgo, Gitarja.

    Next, Kupe could be his own tier, but Kupe is in my mind a bit of an anomaly since he was missing awhile, and I wouldn't want a single tier with just Kupe. Thus, B tier could be Kupe, Pachacuti, and Jayavarman.

    C tier could be from Cleo --> Philip: Cleopatra, Amanitore, Pericles, Harald, Montezuma, John Curtain, Wilfrid Laurier, and Matthias Corvinus.

    Lautaro could also be a tier, but again, to avoid single civ tiers, I would go D from Lautaro to Trajan: Lautaro, Tomyris, Cyrus, Qin Shi Huang, Bolivar, Catherine, Frederick, and Trajan

    E then could be Lady Six Sky to Seondeok, leaving F as Poundmaker to Shaka, with a special last tier reserved for Kongo. Shaka could also be argued as his own tier, but again, avoiding one civ tiers except special case Kongo.

    In summary, this would yield:

    S: Peter, Hojo, Saladin, Gandhi
    A: Mansa Musa, Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Pedro, Tamar, Genghis Khan, Gorgo, Gitarja
    B: Kupe, Pachacuti, Jayavarman
    C: Cleopatra, Amanitore, Pericles, Harald, Montezuma, John Curtain, Wilfrid Laurier, Matthias Corvinus, Philip
    D: Lautaro, Tomyris, Cyrus, Qin Shi Huang, Bolivar, Catherine, Frederick,Trajan
    E: Lady Six Sky, Dido, Teddy Roosevelt, Eleanor (France), Gilgamesh, Kristina, Eleanor (England), Victoria, Seondeok
    F: Poundmaker, Suleiman, Alexander, Whilhelmina, Robert the Bruce, Shaka
    FF: Kongo

    Now, the tiers are a bit uneven. I propose Genghis, Gorgo, and Gitarja be moved from A to B. Rolling with this, I will generate and post a new tiermaker figure momentarily. Please share any objections you may have.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  5. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Here is the revised graphic:
    upload_2020-7-13_9-2-17.png
     
  6. kryat

    kryat King

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    The latest tiers seem reasonable to me. This is a great graphic. Once we have cultural victory, we can assemble a proper power ranking by taking some sort of average ranking on each list.

    Such a list would probably exempt Ethiopia, Gran Columbia, and Maya since we don’t have rankings for them in all lists.

    I would maybe suggest exempting Kongo from religion for such a list.

    One possibility for a strength ranking would be to weight each leader’s ranking based on how common different victory types are, either by steam achievement data or from civfanatics polling, or both.
     
  7. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    A last word on religious rock bands - I never said they were good, I was responding to another poster who said there were no new religious developments possible after apostles are unlocked, which is not strictly true.
     
  8. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Just for the record, Carl has confirmed that Tomyris and Montezuma's lost religious combat strength is intentional, but a bug or oversight. So, those bonuses won't be coming back.
     
  9. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Monarch (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I assume you mean NOT a bug or oversight

    Looks good except I would put Gandhi in the A tier (well I would put him lower than that but we have to follow the rules!!)
     
  10. Mahi

    Mahi Warlord

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    RV is OK but it often turns into a micro managing hell if you didn't plan for RV from the beggining. Besides, I play on large maps and brining your religion to a new continent on a large map is not my best idea of fun. I usually enjoy it in the begginning but I get insane from all that unit management of all my "1 spread apostles" that I accumulate over time.
    RV is fun in some scenarios but a real drag in others.
     
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  11. lotrmith

    lotrmith Prince

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  12. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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  13. lotrmith

    lotrmith Prince

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    Thanks. Do take all speed run placements with a grain of salt. They often involve a lot of luck in start position and at various points throughout.

    It certainly demonstrates Mali's power, which was my intention, but power is relative and multi-faceted. Pure speed is not how many people play (indeed I only found this challenge fun based on the discussion and elimination thread... it's not how I would want to play normally). I find Mali's true strength in their combination faith and gold economies which I like to leverage with Monumentality (and play for other win conditions), and that comes online in Classic and the payout is in Medieval+.

    Plus when going for a straight speed challenge a lot of standard strategy and caution gets thrown to the wind for the purpose of getting a single outlier game with a record setting time. Under almost no other circumstances would I use that research/build order or go one-city, for example.

    That's why "fastest" is only part of the equation, and I'm happy Mali made it to 5th place overcoming some adversity. Of course Peter and indeed Ghandi had worthy placements as well, Ghandi particularly given the extra missionary charges which make him competitive for speed (though that advantage falls away once Apostles come out, and I believe Mali's faith bank eclipses it both early and late).
     
  14. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis Prince

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