Removed Wasted Food/Shield on growth/Production Feature

Originally posted by Qitai
Muchembled> Cool. I may give it a try one of these days. But as it is, I wouldn't want to be playing a mod which no one elses plays. Anyway, did anyone look at the AI and how they perform? Does it shows any significant improvement? Or did the mod affects the human only?

The utility that Muchembled made works perfect as far as I can tell. I used the utility on a single player game that was already in the modern era, and I was already winning so I can't tell if the AI got better. I spied at the AI's cities to see if they also get the extra food production and shields and they do get them. So I assume that they play better now because the AI is not as good at micromanagement as the human player.

The other features of Muchembled's utility are great too. The utility warns you when a city has grown and when a city will go into disorder. You should try it sometime. It greatly reduces micromanagement and thus improves gameplay. :goodjob:
 
I agree with food rollover; it's sensible and practical.
I disagree with shield rollover; AI is aggressive enough already.
I'm glad we need not be concerned with gold rollover.
Now this gold rollover comment has given me new ideas about rush-buying. I'll start a new thread on it.
 
I like both roll-over ideas. It makes sense, and would certainly take away MM tedium. And to the people complaining about the AI having an advantage: That's a good thing. If you want to have the AI be at about the same challenge, take away other advantages (free units, etc.). That's also a good thing, the fact that the AI wouldn't need these advantages.
 
Or just go down a difficulty level.

As long as Chieftain isn't too hard for novices nor Deity too easy for experienced players the difficulty levels are doing their job.
 
Originally posted by Pembroke
Or just go down a difficulty level.
Actually, what I meant to say was Firaxis could take away those bonuses/add human bonuses to make the difficulty levels the same true difficulty.
 
I tried that utility, and it does work great!

If you just rushed something (so the shield box was full), you still get that city's shield output for the next thing you are building, so you aren't 'wasting' any shields by rushing.

One thing I haven't checked is if the cascade of shields from a cleared forest prevents a wonder build. Let's say you only need 5 shields to finish a project. You clear the forest (10 shields), and now have 5 shields cascaded to the next project. I don't know if those 5 shields will be counted as coming from the forest and preventing you from building a wonder next. I know the forest gets cleared before the game adds your city's shield production, so in some cases this penalty won't apply (like if you need 11 shields to finish something, and you produce 6 shields/turn, then the last 5 shields that got cascaded came from the city, so you could start a wonder).

You still need to do some micromanaging, so there is still an advantage for doing micromanagement. Example: For 4 turn settler factory, you still may need a forest tile to pick up the extra shield or two every time you gain a population point, and then to take the 'new' citizen off of the forest and back to a higher food tile to stay at +5 food.
But actually now that I think about it, maybe if you use 'emphasize food' you wouldn't need to do this. The first settler may get delayed by 1 turn, but after that you should be able to keep the settler/4 turns pace since the shields are cascading. The one or two shields may eventually add up to 1 full settler, but that wouldn't be for another 15 settlers (minimal impact), it isn't too much of a difference if you have 16 cities instead of 15.

But for those cities at +3 or +4 food that have a granary (where you only need 10 food, so some food is wasted), you don't need to switch the tiles around every 3 or 4 turns (to maximize commerce/shields since you don't need the food), or to build cities so that they share these tiles so you can switch the tiles around between the two cities every 3-4 turns.

You probably wouldn't need to do the more advanced micromanagement, either (having workers adjust the terrain every turn or two to accomodate your shield/food needs).

This does help the human in the early game more so than the AI. The AI would still have the problem of having the shields for a settler built up before they have the population points for it. And the notorious worker tasking of the AI hurts it. So the human still needs proper worker management to have an edge.

Later in the game, the AI would be better, because they of course don't try to balance shield output to what they are building (have a 30-shield city build a 90-shield unit, and a 20-shield city build an 80-shield unit). The AI will still build solar plants when they already have Hoovers. The AI will still have too few workers when they have pollution all over the place, and other idiot things the AI does in the late game that causes them to fall apart.

However, I think the human player will have a greater advantage in the late game because the human won't mass-irrigate the world like the AI does. So the human has more shields to cascade to the next building/unit. But that is what the shield discounts are for! Maybe the discounts wouldn't need to be so great?

As long as Chieftain isn't too hard for novices nor Deity too easy for experienced players the difficulty levels are doing their job.

There are people who play 'Beyond Deity' where they give the AI a bigger discount than deity level.
Deity=40% discount
Beyond Deity=50%
 
Beyond Deity. Sounds good. Is this (50% dscount) the best bonus to give the AI if you want to make the game more chalenging after the start of the game?
Deity is a bit of a race to become equal and better in tech than the AI. Normally I succeed in this objective because the AI gets into mayor wars. This happens (almost) for sure after they get the technology to sign Mutual Protection Pacts (Nationalism). I think the AI at Deity (and Beyond Deity) level would be more chalenging if they can't sign Mutual Protection Pacts. But that would reduce diplomacy and that's bad.

Does anyone have any good ideas to make the AI more chalenging (by giving them specific bonusses)?

I don't agree with you Bamspeedy on the effect on the AI and the Human player of this utility. I think it helps the AI more than a good human player.
Without the utility I manage my cities in such a way that they produce exactly the amount of shields to be 95+% efficient (40 shields in a city building cavalry (80), etc.) and the food that is still produced in such a (maximum fase) city will be used to build workers and settlers to add to slow growing cities. I think that my efficiency will be much better than the AI's.
When the utility is used, I will become marginally more efficient in managing my cities, while the AI will become a lot more efficient. Of course the human player will still be more efficient but I think the difference will be smaller.
Also I think it will be most usefull for the AI to become better at the midgame and according to you that's the moment they will gain the most by using the utility.
 
I don't know if it is the best bonus to give, but for Beyond Deity, they just go in the editor and give the AI a cost factor of 5 (instead of 6). Buried several pages back in the succession games forums there was a game played with this setting (title of thread named 'Beyond Deity'). They won, after a rocky start next to the Greeks.
You could give them even more of a discount, but I don't think anyone has ever tried, or succeeded at that. You could give them a cost factor as little as 1, which would let them build immortals for 3 shields. :eek: :eek:

Getting rid of MPP's does sound like a good way to solve the AI's stumbles in the late game. I may try that sometime.
 
I would vote against this change.

Losing excess food and production is one of the mechanisms that make the game harder to master, without making it harder to learn, and therefore it gives the game greater depth, and makes it more rewarding in the long-run.

I appreciate some players may prefer to concentrate on the strategic elements of the game, but I think tactics and micro-management have an important role to play.
 
Carryover of excess food and shields (and excess research beakers as well, when completing a tech) would be the simplest, easiest, biggest improvement I can think of. It would do a lot to equalize the gap between human and computer play, which I'd love to see. Giving the AI bigger and bigger bonuses is no fun, and excessive micromanagement is no fun either.

Since people feel both ways about this, I'd be perfectly satisfied to have it as an option when setting up the game. Like the Accelerated Production option that exists now.
 
Originally posted by Snaga
I would vote against this change.

Losing excess food and production is one of the mechanisms that make the game harder to master, without making it harder to learn, and therefore it gives the game greater depth, and makes it more rewarding in the long-run.

I appreciate some players may prefer to concentrate on the strategic elements of the game, but I think tactics and micro-management have an important role to play.
And I think you're crazy. :p

Losing excess food and production doesn't make it harder to master; it is simply hard to get yourself to care about the game enough to worry about it. It adds no depth to the game; how is fooling around to make sure everything evens out in the end deep? It doesn't take a smart, shrewd, or clever person to do it; it takes a persistant person to do it, as someone else said. Well, I guess you could argue that it does indeed make it harder to master and makes it deeper, but not in the sense that I'd like it to be. Plus it's not realistic. Maybe some production/food/research could be lost due to bad orders or something, but what idiot in real life notices that a battleship is done being made but continues to work anyway? Or what leader would not build anything cheap in a productive city, and instead build it in an unproductive one, because he doesn't want to waste any productivity? It makes no sense, AFAIK and IMO.

That's just my opinion, though, and you're certainly entitled to yours. :)
 
I view micromanaging for shields/food/commerce is the same thing as milking a game.

There are different degrees of milking, as there is micromanaging. You can do 'basic' micromanaging, like you can do a simple 'milking'. Using the governors is like just pressing 'end turn'. Most people don't enjoy milking, and I don't enjoy micromanaging.

Most people are dumbfounded when somebody says they enjoy milking to 2050 AD. I am equally dumbfounded when somebody enjoys micromanaging 50+ cities, and still trying to save every last shield/gold they can while in the industrial/modern age.

The higher skilled milkers are just as skilled as those who employ the 'advanced micromanagement'. But the real thing that is talked about in this thread is the 'basic micromanagement', which is the same as a 'simple milk'.

The simple milk is basically just working on a jigsaw puzzle and putting the pieces into place. You know where the pieces go, it's just a simple matter of doing it. That's exactly what the basic micromanagement is. You know which tiles need to be worked, you just have to move those citizens around nearly every single turn. There is no strategy involved in simply counting how many shields you need (and over/under producing) and placing citizens to match that. All that is, is counting. Simple math.

Even with the cascading of food/shields, there are still micromanaging that can be done if desired. Just like there are 'advanced' milking techniques for those who want a higher score. And there still is proper worker tasking to do.

Strategy (IMO) is:
1. Where do you build your cities?
2. What do you build, and in what order?
3. What do you research?
4. Does your worker mine or irrigate? (of course, despotism reduces the choices here).
5. Do you fight your neighbors, or stay at peace?
6. Do you build that marketplace, or more military?
7. Diplomacy/trade.
8. How much to use the luxury slider.
9. Do you pop-rush, or wait for the thing to be built manually.
10. What to do with that great leader?

Strategy is not:
1. Short rushing.
2. Moving citizens off of a tile because that city is producing too much food that turn.
3. Turning down research for 1 turn because you are investing too much.
4. Set what units cities are building, strictly based on their shield output (to avoid waste).

Strategy is like being a coach of a sports team.
Micromanaging is like being a bookkeeper/accountant.
Which is more fun?

PLEASE, at least give us this OPTION!
 
I think the basic idea of cascading excess shields (and beakers) makes plenty of sense.

One way of discouraging amassing megapiles by building Warriors in 40 shield cities would be having "stored" shields be subject to some form of corruption. Knock the same percentage of the cascading shields as corruption knocks off the base production. This means that amassed shields will decay exponentially. You'd need a minimum rate of loss to stop megapiles in the capital.
 
I'd be happy to limit the maximum shield (and food) carryover to the size of the storage box, and also to limit any given city to build at most one thing per turn. I think that's enough to control abuse.
 
With the program that marceagleye posted, a city can't 'store' more than it produces in 1 turn. If the city is producing 21 shields/turn and you build a 10 shield warrior, and then try building another warrior, the game asks you if this is OK, because you are wasting 1 shield (11 shields have been stored). If you build another warrior after that, then 21 shields would be wasted, and 21 shields would keep being wasted if you keep building warriors.
 
Originally posted by WillJ
but what idiot in real life notices that a battleship is done being made but continues to work anyway?

I think you answered the original ruling reason here Will, What Idiot would 'continue working' when the battleship is done, hence the ceasement of remaining shields,
On the other hand, at the advent of the Industrialisation/Production line in the tech tree, I think that the games designers should put in the roll-over effect when building the same unit in the same city. This make sense.
 
Originally posted by Bane Star
I think you answered the original ruling reason here Will, What Idiot would 'continue working' when the battleship is done, hence the ceasement of remaining shields,
On the other hand, at the advent of the Industrialisation/Production line in the tech tree, I think that the games designers should put in the roll-over effect when building the same unit in the same city. This make sense.
Yeah, I guess it could be argued that the people realize they're done and stop working, but when those people are done making the battleship, they should move on to something else. Since I'm such a cruel dictator, my citizens don't get breaks. :evil: Plus, IMO, the concept of production and research going in turns shouldn't be so strict.
 
Originally posted by WillJ
Losing excess food and production doesn't make it harder to master; it is simply hard to get yourself to care about the game enough to worry about it. It adds no depth to the game; how is fooling around to make sure everything evens out in the end deep? It doesn't take a smart, shrewd, or clever person to do it; it takes a persistant person to do it, as someone else said. Well, I guess you could argue that it does indeed make it harder to master and makes it deeper, but not in the sense that I'd like it to be. Plus it's not realistic. Maybe some production/food/research could be lost due to bad orders or something, but what idiot in real life notices that a battleship is done being made but continues to work anyway? Or what leader would not build anything cheap in a productive city, and instead build it in an unproductive one, because he doesn't want to waste any productivity? It makes no sense, AFAIK and IMO.
Micromanaging cities for the whole duration of a game would take not just persistence, but a fair slice of insanity in my opinion. Micromanaging the right cities, the right way, at the right time requires a lot of experience and good judgement. I also disagree that these are easy decisions to make. Reducing wastage inter-relates with all the other small and large scale decisions a civ player needs to make. It adds a layer of complexity to civ, which I think makes the game more challenging and more rewarding.

Getting rid of this game feature would not only reduce the gap between human and computer play, but would also reduce the gap between moderate players and those with more experience.

As for realism, I think the best games model real-life situations only roughly. Trying too hard for realism usually kills off gameplay. Almost every aspect of Civ 3 is unrealistic if you analyze it. e.g the movement rate of units, the fixed options for culture and research, the size of cities compared to land. Find me part of the game that is realistic! The concept of running a city efficiently is however, very much in tune with a model of real-life. I like the fact that an experienced player can wring more production/growth out of a city than an inexperienced one.

I personally find constantly having to enter diplomacy with rivals so as to not miss out on trade deals the dullest part of the game.
 
Originally posted by Snaga
Getting rid of this game feature would not only reduce the gap between human and computer play, but would also reduce the gap between moderate players and those with more experience.

Great! That's two good reasons.
 
Originally posted by Bane Star
I think you answered the original ruling reason here Will, What Idiot would 'continue working' when the battleship is done, hence the ceasement of remaining shields

If a single game turn is 10 years long, it would seem to me that if the workers finish the battleship after 2 years, they could spend the next 8 years doing something else. The accumulated/carryover shields represent the value of the work that they do during that time. One can either decide what to put it into in advance (using build queues), or just specify on the next turn (by giving an appropriate work order on the city screen).
 
Back
Top Bottom