Replace Pacifism?

Replace Pacifism with Atheism. Is this a good idea?


  • Total voters
    115
I do think that it's right to move Free Religion slightly earlier ; esp. if you can make it so that it acts slightly differently depending on whether you have state religion (reflecting pluralism) or not (reflecting secularism).

I have to say that I think this is one of the most interesting ideas to come out of this thread. Having civics with different effects depending on whether you are running a state religion or not. I am not even sure if it's possible, but if so it opens up some interesting possibilities.
 
Right, apologies. What we already have though is a scientific/secular religious civic ; I assume you mean shifting Free Religion earlier (changing effects) and then adding Secularism as Enkidu said (and you agreed with).

Then I still believe that every other religious civic except theocracy represents a form of pluralism. His examples are interesting:
The Mongols, yes, maintained something of a policy of not picking a side so as to prevent dogpiling by religious groups. Fine, they can stick with Paganism ; the name doesn't reflect the reality but the effects do. They get a relatively minor diplo penalty (as makes sense) but reduce the chance of being attacked as a true heretic.
Persian Empire were far from pluralistic or even tolerant, at least not for long periods of time with Zoroastrianism being dominant and other religions (e.g. RC) persecuted for much of its 'mid'-history. I suppose you could claim it was pluralistic in that Zoroastrianism was heavily influenced by Persian culture and local religion but I don't think that's vaguely helpful. OrgRel?
Rome was pluralistic in that accepted other religions so long as their followers bent them enough to fit the Roman pantheon etc. Edict of Milan isn't a display of tolerance, it's a takeover by Christianity (well, what Const. etc. make of it). OrgRel?

I do think that it's right to move Free Religion slightly earlier ; esp. if you can make it so that it acts slightly differently depending on whether you have state religion (reflecting pluralism) or not (reflecting secularism). But I don't that there is enough justification for splitting it into to two civics, particularly since there aren't that many examples of truly pluralistic societies which aren't well modelled enough already. I also admit that State Cult (or whatever) would cause excessive peace problems unless a system of diplo penalties could be developed (as posited above).

Persia had a great many religions within its vast domains and never sought to spread Zoroastrianism aggressively. Likewise the Mongols were not Pagans and they had no interest in converting their subjects.

My point is, whatever the historical innacuracies of describing these civs as pluralistic, it's far less innaccurate than having Rome or Persia, or for that matter Egypt or Greece as established Jewish states. Giving these civs a viable civic with no state religion will solve a whole bucket of problems, including the Pacifism problem described in this thread.

State cult is just a distasteful civic, unnecessary in game and historical terms. Having no representation for atheists in the game was seen by some as a bit of a slap in the face. Putting atheism in only in the form of brutal Soviet ideology is much worse, especially when there is so little to merit it. State cult is just theocracy without the religion. You can already do that in the game as it stands, it just doesn't have any positive effects.
 
State cult is just a distasteful civic, unnecessary in game and historical terms. Having no representation for atheists in the game was seen by some as a bit of a slap in the face. Putting atheism in only in the form of brutal Soviet ideology is much worse, especially when there is so little to merit it. State cult is just theocracy without the religion. You can already do that in the game as it stands, it just doesn't have any positive effects.

Honestly, your opininon on the matter, or your view of these states is whats not letting you see it in totality. And btw, haven't we had enough Soviet bashing yet? There were other totalitarian states you know.
 
Honestly, your opininon on the matter, or your view of these states is whats not letting you see it in totality. And btw, haven't we had enough Soviet bashing yet? There were other totalitarian states you know.

My view of the Soviets is irrelevant, I didn't realise I was bashing anything. Is it so unreasonable to dislike a system that includes only a negative version of atheism. I assume most of us can agree forced atheism is 'brutal' without getting in to 'bashing'.

My view of the pluralism suggestion is quite seperate. Don't you think having a no state religion civic in the classical era would solve most of the annoying religious problems that have been argued about for some time? Yes, most states have had some sort of state supported faith, even when those states practised tolerance of other faiths. But the problem is we have only 7 religions, and that isn't enough for historical purposes in this mod. Either the AI starts using Paganism (preferably renamed), or we give them another option like pluralism (or we add a ton of extra religions, or just tolerate the current innacurate situation).

We could add both this and state cult by ditching pacifism and moving free religion. I'd argue against it, but then that's a different argument.
 
I don't believe atheism excists, so I voted NO.
Tibet, India, Laos, Burma and Siam/Thailand are all examples of civilizations that have adopted Pacifism. Those are only Buddhist countries (India at the time under the reign of Asoka) but counts for more than 1 country, since Cuba (Communist country) would have organized religion, North Korea (Communist country) org. religion and China (Communist country) has free religion. China does not have atheism.
Someone convince me otherwise :)
 
I assume you mean 'State Atheism doesn't exist' otherwise you're just trolling. Right?

China has Free Religion? Right...
Yes, the constitution guarantees freedom of religion. Unfortunately, this is bullfeathers. Obvious example? Membership of the CPC requires that you state that you are an atheist.

Enkidu, what would you think of my suggested dualistic civic that would reflect pluralism and secularism depending on whether a state religion was selected? (I think that is possible in game.) It might be possible to make secularism via it only viable later in the game (can't think how, right now).
 
Honestly, your opininon on the matter, or your view of these states is whats not letting you see it in totality. And btw, haven't we had enough Soviet bashing yet? There were other totalitarian states you know.

I am beginning to realise that we are having some communication breakdowns here - either that or you are intentionally implying that those who disagree with you are lacking understanding. There have been no detrimental words against Russia in this thread. People have simply used it as a model of the type of state controlled idealogy they wish to represent. I personally am not making a quality judgement about the politics of Russia 50 years ago, I am simply trying to establish a civic that is both suitable for the game *and* has a nod towards reality.


SkippyT said:
I don't believe atheism excists, so I voted NO.
Tibet, India, Laos, Burma and Siam/Thailand are all examples of civilizations that have adopted Pacifism........Someone convince me otherwise

Well, pacifism would indicate that they have no expansionist or military desires beyond say protecting their borders and security. Only one of the above countries could even be minorly deemed to fit in that category.

Tibet spent countless centuries vying for power with local Chinese warlords. Prior to being brought under the wing of communist China, the people were very militant - at some points in history up to one tenth of the population of Tibet served in armed forces!!

India was a very militant set of states for much of its history and even had it's own colonial past in Indo-China. Post British colonialism has shown on-going conflict with Pakistan. This has led to the development and testing of nukes. India's military budget is far higher than simply security would require. Add to this the diversity of the people in the Indian subcontinent and you can see that pacificism doesn't in any way describe the reality of their actions.

Laos is communist but is probably the most pacifist of the nations you mentioned.

Siam/Thailand is again not a good example of Pacifism. The Sukhothai and Ayutthaya Kingdoms were pretty much constantly at war with their neighbours, especially Myanmar (Burma). They have had a few minor wars in the last few decades, most recently against Laos (it only lasted a few weeks). Again, looking to the south, you can see that you cannot even nominate the entire culture as being truly pacifist - while the Buddhist north may be culturally less confrontational, in the Muslim south there are countless murders and terrorist acts daily.



Really, I doubt that many nations can be said to be truly pacifist. Unfortunately for our species, we have a tendency to war. Trying to remember that Machiavelli quote about Princes being no different than shoemakers - for the same reason the latter argue with their neighbours, so Princes go to war.

You are right in one main thing though, Buddhism strongly lends itself to pacifism - having lived in Thailand for over 3 years now, I have to say that I haven't seen anyone out for a fight like I used to so often back in the U.K.
 
Enkidu, what would you think of my suggested dualistic civic that would reflect pluralism and secularism depending on whether a state religion was selected? (I think that is possible in game.) It might be possible to make secularism via it only viable later in the game (can't think how, right now).

This is really a great idea, but I am still at a loss of how to make it work. Basically, the "Free Religion" civic would be achieved at say Philosophy but would at that time only grant benefits to those who had a state religion, thereby achieving an ecumenical state. Then at a later date, say with the discovery of Scientific Method, the player could then select to have no state religion but to maintain the "Free Religion" civic thereby achieving a secularist state.

The early version would lend itself to culture and great people (and possibly happiness) but would still have a diplomacy hit with civs of other state religions. The latter version would lend itself to science (and possibly health or commerce) and would lose the state religion diplomacy check.

Not sure exactly if or how this is possible, but it seems a very elegant method of solving the problem of "pacifism".
 
Doesn't anything except Theocracy account for Religious Pluralism ; a religion is still dominant (i.e. in government and otherwise) but other religions are tolerated and can still give some benefits.

Not really.
Christinity was almost never pluralistic, except in the Itailain Renaissance and very recently is has become pluralisticm, but due to necessity. Yet, the only realy theocracy in Christiandom has been the Vatican.

As someone who is aware of history, when I think "theocracy" I do not think contemporary fundamentalism (which is strongest when the governement is in fact secular, i.e, Syria) but it means that the nation is ruled by a priest/clerical class. Thus Egypt, Mesopotimia, and Persia were all theorcaries and some of these were in fact pluralist. People have to maintain a hisorical perspective as long as that included in the CIV IV itself in order to make sense of these matters.
 
As I said before, there has been and there are countries that have Pacifism as a civic. Laos is one example, but I have others I mentioned before: Switzerland and Japan. And I have another I didn't mentioned: Germany. Recently, (after Irak's last invasion), the former German governing party, the SPD, changed the Constitution of Germany to prevent German army to become involved on any war if it wasn't under UN banner, or to defend German territory. So, in CIV terms, they became "Pacifist".

About a dualistic free religion: well, if it can be done a dualist religious civic, I say, why not make it all the others? That way you could have a non-SR Theocracy, that will be your beloved USSR/Nazi-like "enforced atheism" goverment. You will also have non-SR Organized Religion, that would be something like "national minor religions" or "Ecumenic", as someone said above, non-SR Pacifism, that would become an "Enlightment-like" civic, and a non-SR Free Religion, that would be something like France or China "lay State". This way, Pacifism is not removed, those who want an enforced atheism may have it, and religion system it is not unbalanced. And everyone will be happy ;)
 
As I said before, there has been and there are countries that have Pacifism as a civic. Laos is one example, but I have others I mentioned before: Switzerland and Japan. And I have another I didn't mentioned: Germany. Recently, (after Irak's last invasion), the former German governing party, the SPD, changed the Constitution of Germany to prevent German army to become involved on any war if it wasn't under UN banner, or to defend German territory. So, in CIV terms, they became "Pacifist".

About a dualistic free religion: well, if it can be done a dualist religious civic, I say, why not make it all the others? That way you could have a non-SR Theocracy, that will be your beloved USSR/Nazi-like "enforced atheism" goverment. You will also have non-SR Organized Religion, that would be something like "national minor religions" or "Ecumenic", as someone said above, non-SR Pacifism, that would become an "Enlightment-like" civic, and a non-SR Free Religion, that would be something like France or China "lay State". This way, Pacifism is not removed, those who want an enforced atheism may have it, and religion system it is not unbalanced. And everyone will be happy ;)

Sounds good, but it also sounds like too much. And, in the same vein, if we were to add this wouldnt we also need to add more to the other categories, why should religion be so detailed but not the other categories?

Good plan, but I think its either going to be hard to do, or it will bug Rhye because it will be too much to do.
 
There actually IS a difference inbetween "scientific atheism" (the concept of not using god as an explanation for scientific facts) and "enforced atheism" (totalitarian states wanting to get rid of existing religious authorities).

Atheism is NOT equal to believing in science.

Scientific atheism is much more wide than just «the concept of not using god as an explanation for scientific facts». BTW, is there are any way to distinct «scientific facts» from «non-scientific» ones? Is there are different kinds of facts? :) Or we must go back to «2*2» example? :) Science enclose as a subject of research whole universe in all of its forms. There’s nothing left behind a science.
It’s pointless for me to go further on topic here. I uploaded last Dawkins’s book, “The God delusion”, for you. Have a nice read!

About totalitarian states wanting to get rid of existing religious authorities… Can I say that religious authorities name liberal regimes totalitarian in order to preserve friendly ideology? It is easy truce in case of Third Reih or USSR because thouse states no more exists and can’t defend themselves. Vae victus! But there were another times…
Frankly, you use generally the same argument as creationists do when they trying to get rid of evolution theory. How it is to be in such a «nice» company? :)
BTW, do you know that term «propaganda» originates from naming of one of Catholic Church’s departments, charged with the spread of Catholicism? How ironically! :) Moreover, father of public relations (another interesting term) Edward Bernays published book “Propaganda” in 1928 with such statement: «The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in _democratic_ society.»

By the way: even if I don't like religious thinking I have to admit that reductionism isn't really the thing people are longing for.

About reductionism and different ways of thinking: that’s just another common truce. There’s no any «reductionism» in atheism. You just decide 2*2=4 or 2*2=5. Simple reasoning. Science in turn is a reasoning organised into system (and in fact, very succesfull system).
Little quote from Richard Feynman: «I have a friend who's an artist, and he sometimes takes a view which I don't agree with. He'll hold up a flower and say, "Look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. But then he'll say, "I, as an artist, can see how beautiful a flower is. But you, as a scientist, take it all apart and it becomes dull." I think he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people - and to me, too, I believe. Although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is, I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. But at the same time, I see much more in the flower than he sees. I can imagine the cells inside, which also have a beauty. There's beauty not just at the dimension of one centimeter; there's also beauty at a smaller dimension. There are the complicated actions of the cells, and other processes. The fact that the colors in the flower have evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; that means insects can see the colors. That adds a question: does this aesthetic sense we have also exist in lower forms of life? There are all kinds of interesting questions that come from a knowledge of science, which only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.»

Afterall in everyday life interpretations/opinions usually matter more than hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts.

Did you ever heard joke: «Boeing 747 is extremely simple device when you deal with it as a passenger»? ;)
Your statement is completely wrong at least because «everyday life» of modern people is TOTALLY (I mean, _TOTALLY_!) dependant on «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts». Man, just think for a moment that your posting delivered to me by means of complex computer network TOTALLY BASED on «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts». PC is a pure mathematics!
If people aren't longing for «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts» then advanced culture of all that incredible machinery simply will not stay for long.
 
Scientific atheism is much more wide than just «the concept of not using god as an explanation for scientific facts». BTW, is there are any way to distinct «scientific facts» from «non-scientific» ones? Is there are different kinds of facts? :) Or we must go back to «2*2» example? :) Science enclose as a subject of research whole universe in all of its forms. There’s nothing left behind a science.
It’s pointless for me to go further on topic here. I uploaded last Dawkins’s book, “The God delusion”, for you. Have a nice read!

About totalitarian states wanting to get rid of existing religious authorities… Can I say that religious authorities name liberal regimes totalitarian in order to preserve friendly ideology? It is easy truce in case of Third Reih or USSR because thouse states no more exists and can’t defend themselves. Vae victus! But there were another times…
Frankly, you use generally the same argument as creationists do when they trying to get rid of evolution theory. How it is to be in such a «nice» company? :)
BTW, do you know that term «propaganda» originates from naming of one of Catholic Church’s departments, charged with the spread of Catholicism? How ironically! :) Moreover, father of public relations (another interesting term) Edward Bernays published book “Propaganda” in 1928 with such statement: «The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in _democratic_ society.»



About reductionism and different ways of thinking: that’s just another common truce. There’s no any «reductionism» in atheism. You just decide 2*2=4 or 2*2=5. Simple reasoning. Science in turn is a reasoning organised into system (and in fact, very succesfull system).
Little quote from Richard Feynman: «I have a friend who's an artist, and he sometimes takes a view which I don't agree with. He'll hold up a flower and say, "Look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. But then he'll say, "I, as an artist, can see how beautiful a flower is. But you, as a scientist, take it all apart and it becomes dull." I think he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people - and to me, too, I believe. Although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is, I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. But at the same time, I see much more in the flower than he sees. I can imagine the cells inside, which also have a beauty. There's beauty not just at the dimension of one centimeter; there's also beauty at a smaller dimension. There are the complicated actions of the cells, and other processes. The fact that the colors in the flower have evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; that means insects can see the colors. That adds a question: does this aesthetic sense we have also exist in lower forms of life? There are all kinds of interesting questions that come from a knowledge of science, which only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.»



Did you ever heard joke: «Boeing 747 is extremely simple device when you deal with it as a passenger»? ;)
Your statement is completely wrong at least because «everyday life» of modern people is TOTALLY (I mean, _TOTALLY_!) dependant on «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts». Man, just think for a moment that your posting delivered to me by means of complex computer network TOTALLY BASED on «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts». PC is a pure mathematics!
If people aren't longing for «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts» then advanced culture of all that incredible machinery simply will not stay for long.


Interesting but this has nothing or little to do with the game mechanics. Perhaps it is in the way of an argument for a name change, but I dont get what the point is.:confused:

BTW, anyone who felt I was misunderstanding the dialogue before, Im sorry if I was. :cool:
 
Having civics with different effects depending on whether you are running a state religion or not. I am not even sure if it's possible, but if so it opens up some interesting possibilities.
Of course it's possible! RCs affect cities with the SR. If there is no SR, all cities don't have the SR. Just make effects depends on whether the city has SR and you've got it.

State cult is just a distasteful civic, unnecessary in game and historical terms. Having no representation for atheists in the game was seen by some as a bit of a slap in the face. Putting atheism in only in the form of brutal Soviet ideology is much worse, especially when there is so little to merit it. State cult is just theocracy without the religion. You can already do that in the game as it stands, it just doesn't have any positive effects.
Enkidu old buddy, I see what you're saying and why but I have to disagree. The institution of a state cult to partially or entirely replace religion was a defining factor in a few high- and low-profile totalitarian regimes. Currently, there is no RC that is right for Hitler or for Stalin and I personally dislike this hole in realism. It is not possible to recreate one of the most interesting and important eras in history because of the all-or-nothing approach taken in the list of RCs.

I am starting to think we need to either rehash the RC concept, or simply rehash the entire list to allow non-SR states under more RCs. I will work on this idea and post about it at a later opportunity.
 
I think Blasphemous is on the right track.

OFF-TOPIC:
Spoiler :
@Guest01:
I. Thank you for the book.:goodjob:

II. Please read a latin dictionary (and grammar book) or stop using a language you apparently have no clue of.
(i)It's vae vict-is or vae vict-o. Simple declination.
(ii)propaganda derives from propagare (to spread) and means "to be spread".
(iii)factum (basically) means "something that has been done or has happened" or "deed". In that sense there are non-scientific facts, or is every deed scientific? That A was indeed the murderer of B is not so much of scientific importance but rather imortant for justice and jurisdiction.;)

III. As far as I know atheism means "not believing in god". I don't know ancient Greek, but a- is there for negation and theos means "god". That means atheism is just not believing in god. It does NOT (necessarily) imply believing in scientific reasoning. And scientific reasoning does not necessarily imply that you have to be an atheist. :p

IV. I agree that demystification is not necessarily a loss. But what I actually meant (I'm sorry for my ambigious post) is that poeple long much more for food, drinkable water, fresh air, sunshine, etc to keep their body alive and love, friendship, appreciation, etc for their soul/psyche than they do for the study of science.
And opinions, prejudices, biases, experience, emotions, intuition, etc are often enough the basis for our decisions, or do poeple really refer to scientific data first?:confused:
And more often than not we do NOT know why we really did something. (That is also partly analizes by the theory of mind.)
And most people really do not care how their magical gadgets work and read pseudo-scientific explanations/books/magazines at best.
And if you you have read your Feynman well, you'll already know that if you know that 10 people will die in a certain event, you do not arlready know wether that's good or bad.
Ethics or morality have their irritional components. And ethics and morality are important, too. And they are often enough indoctrinated by religion.

V. Science decribes the universe and the guiding principles behind it, yes. That's the ideal and we don't really know THAT much, yet.:lol:
"Science enclose as a subject of research whole universe in all of its forms. There’s nothing left behind a science."
But the way you put it is very close to how some creationists describe theology though.:p

VI. Science is about approximation and proveable (mathematical) models and not so much about facts. Many scientific theories have been proven wrong or just way to inaccurate. Not just in physics, but also in medicine. Of course the great thing in science is that you can (with a little luck;) ) prove that your theory is right even if it is contrary to common sense.

VII. I hope you know the difference between mathematical facts that can be undoubtedly proven, scientific
approximations and mathematical definitions/conventions.
Your favorite "2*2" example is in the form you present it complete nonsens.
2*2=4 v 2*2=5 => 4=5
You give the same element of a field to different names. You can do that, but you have to find a new symbol for 2+3. Your example is only right if you state explicitly that 4!=5. Mathematics is about being exact, but I guess you know that already.;)

VIII. "If people aren't longing for «hard-proven mathematical or scientific facts» then advanced culture of all that incredible machinery simply will not stay for long." You're completely wrong on that. Only a sufficient minority of people actually has to know the facts, the rest just has to pay for it or allow it to happen. And that's the great thing about reductionism: if you do it right you can add all the small pieces (that can be understood) up to a product (that can not be completely understood by one person). That you depend on something does not imply that you do or want to understand it.

IX. Because religion is tied to morals and established religious authorities have worldly power,too , some regimes want to break away from these authorities if they cannot use them. The Reformation or Henry VIII if England are examples for replacing an established christian authority with a new one (and of course of transferring clerical terretories and possessions to the state). And some regimes do that without defining a new religious authority or believe. If it's right to call that [state enforced] atheism can be debated. You can always redifine words the way you want it. Connotations are important for languages. Language is not as exact as mathematic formulae but our world is more fuzzy or grey than pure black and white.

So what is your point in not calling certain regimes atheistic? Your definition is NOT the only one possible.

By the way the NS-Regime was not really atheistic. Hitler was a member of the church until his death and he and others used a whole lot of religious language. ("Die göttliche Vorsehung hat mich dazu bestimmt...", "unsere heilige Pflicht").


@fearuin: The SPD did not change the constitution, they just changed the interpretation. When the Bundeswehr was created it was under the condition of pure self-defense comperable to Japan. Only after the German reunification the problem of "out of area" (=Germany) came up. Schröder just decided to publicly go against the US government, because he knew he could gain some voters that way. Until then Germany always supported the US but AFAIK without fighting troops. So the FRG/BRD can be regarded as a pacifist vassal.
 
Enkidu, what would you think of my suggested dualistic civic that would reflect pluralism and secularism depending on whether a state religion was selected? (I think that is possible in game.) It might be possible to make secularism via it only viable later in the game (can't think how, right now).

It's interesting, but forfeits one of the big advantages of having a pluralistic civic in that era - namely that the meditteranean civs will still all have Judaism or Christianity as their state religion.
 
Wilhelm II said:
By the way the NS-Regime was not really atheistic. Hitler was a member of the church until his death and he and others used a whole lot of religious language. ("Die göttliche Vorsehung hat mich dazu bestimmt...", "unsere heilige Pflicht").
Yes, but the church was (intended as, at any rate) a tool of the state not as the runner of the state (i.e. a theocracy). Therefore NS falls under 'State Cult' ; just happens to include religions in that country. Chinese Government runs several religions in own country (while still pushing atheism for government positions).
 
Yes, but the church was (intended as, at any rate) a tool of the state not as the runner of the state (i.e. a theocracy). Therefore NS falls under 'State Cult' ; just happens to include religions in that country. Chinese Government runs several religions in own country (while still pushing atheism for government positions).

Yes I saw a news story about this today actually. Apparently the Chinese gov. arrested Catholic priests from the "un-Authorized Catholic Church".
 
I haven't paid attention to this thread for a while and I'll be damned if I catch up with it. I still like the idea of a Personality Cult after Secularism, but let's move on.

Not really.
Christinity was almost never pluralistic, except in the Itailain Renaissance and very recently is has become pluralisticm, but due to necessity. Yet, the only realy theocracy in Christiandom has been the Vatican.

Only the three Abrahamic religions in the game didn't automatically assume Pluralism (and Judaism rarely had a chance to demonstrate disapproval). There were very brief periods of anti-Buddhist sentiments (usually driven solely by monarchs) in India and China, but there were also brief periods where Buddhism flourished (usually under the patronage of a monarch). While Pluralism would be a fitting addition, it so similar as to imply secularism (once again, there's no better example in history than America's "founding fathers") and it certainly shouldn't be limited to any portion of the game.

Currently, there is no RC that is right for Hitler or for Stalin

Well Hitler's views were a mystery to everyone but himself. Though it's true he and his fellow Nazis were slowly fashioning an ideology out of Christianity, pseudo-paganism and 'personality', everyone who knew Hitler on some level had conflicting ideas of his religious views. In some speeches he praised the Classical world because it knew nothing of the two great scourges (the pox and Christianity). In others he viciously defended the Pope, and unlike Stalin, he never seemed resentful of (or even remotely displeased with) his religious upbringing. It may be that they were aiming for a 'civic change', but during the regime itself they mostly upheld the church.
 
The NS government did in fact control the protestant (ev.-luth.) church more or less and had several arrengements with the pope. Only a small minority of priests and bishops really criticized the NS regime loudly or conspired against it.

So there's reason enough to say the RC was still organized religion and the SR still christianity even though the NS ideology is NOT christian at all.

So I agree with Phallus.


Most totalitarian states have some kind of controlled free religion like China or the late Soviet Empire (while still pushing atheism). A really brutal state cult is often only enforced after changing to police state. A nice way to model this would be to give the state cult/police state combo a good stability bonus, but a high upkeep and unhappyness and foreign relations problem. So that the state will want to switch to free religion after the nation has stabilized again.
 
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